11/08/00
Pastor Vitale: Are there any questions or comments?
Does anyone have anything to say about the election? Will everybody please make some comment concerning the election.
Student B: I`m disappointed that Hillary won and am believing that Gov. Bush will be elected.
Student E: I'm hoping Gov. Bush will be elected - the closeness is surprising.
Student A: I also am disappointed that Hillary won and I don't know what happened with Bush as I had an accident with the car this morning.
Pastor Vitale: Student C?
What happened this morning Student A?
Student A: I went to my meeting, and as I turned onto the street in front of the meeting a car backed out of parking space and hit the back of the car.
Pastor Vitale: Was there a lot of damage?
Student A: The driver happened to be going to the same meeting. No damage to his car, but my fender on the right was torn up and it looks like a lot of cost for my car. The driver was a young man and driving someone else's car and seemed quite troubled.
Pastor Vitale: Sorry to hear this.
Student A: But no one was injured, praise God.
Pastor Vitale: I assume you exchanged insurance information?
Student A: Yes, but trying to work it out without the insurance problem.
Pastor Vitale: Can you explain to me, Student A, how this unfortunate incident is an explanation for your not having a comment on the election?
Student A: I only saw the election on TV last night and didn't know too much about it before I had to run out this morning.
Pastor Vitale: Now listen, everybody, if we want to go on in Christ Jesus, it is essential that our human personality start functioning in an honest manner. We must recognize the manipulation of our carnal mind. Because as long as we are in agreement with the deceptive, manipulative practices out our carnal mind, Christ will remain buried under Cain.
Therefore, Student A, I will put what you said before the whole group, not to hurt you in any way, but to reveal the manipulation of the carnal mind.
You said, Student A, I was also disappointed that Hillary won, and I don't know what happened with Bush as I had an accident with the car this morning.
I don't know what happened with Bush because I had a car accident. Can anyone tell us what is wrong with this statement?
Student C: She didn't give any comment on the election, as was asked for.
Student B: It was an incomplete statement.
Student C: The request was to give a comment on the election, whatever comment you have at the time.
Pastor Vitale: Student A did comment on the election, Student C. She said that she didn't know what happened because she had a car accident.
Student E: There could have been some comment about what was reported last night.
Pastor Vitale: Student B, I suspect that you have the general idea but have not expressed it clearly.
What is missing from Student A’s statement, Student B?
Student B: Student A didn't report on the election clearly, or at all.
Pastor Vitale: Student B, you said that Student A made an incomplete statement. I asked you what was missing from her statement, and your response is, Student A did not report on the election clearly.
Does your response answer my question, Student B?
Student B: Yes she didn't say that, No.
Pastor Vitale: No, your response did not answer my question, Student B.
Now listen, everybody, the Lord is making it very clear to me that there is a communication problem that is common to everyone in the group. I am not out to get you, I am trying to help you.
And this is the Word of the Lord to you all, Abel will fail to follow the ascended spiritual path of Christ Jesus, if Cain's convoluted thinking does not straighten out.
Convoluted means rolled or coiled together in overlapping whorls, as certain leaves, petals, or shells.
Your communications are directed inward instead of outward. To put it more simply, your motive, frequently, if not always, is self-preservation rather than clarity and truth.
I grant you that you do not make a conscious decision along these lines every time you speak but, on the subconscious plane, your inadequate communication hinders your ability to reason logically.
The Lord wants us to put more time into correcting the manipulative thinking of your carnal mind which has damaged, and continues to damage, your ability to communicate clearly, and reason logically.
As far as I can tell, Student D, you had the biggest resistance to this aspect of the ministry. I pray that you should take the victory in this area.
I will present Student A's statements as a group exercise, to be solved by the whole group, and then we will address Student B's statements.
It is my understanding that the help and ministry that the Lord is offering you all for this affliction that we will call illogical reasoning, is exposure of the mental manipulation, and the correct reasoning that should replace it.
Can anyone tell us what aspect of our sin nature is operating here?
Student B: Pride.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, pride. Pride is the super manipulator. Therefore, to get the most that the Lord has to offer you out of the exercises that we are about to do, it is necessary that we are willing to admit that pride operates through us on many hidden levels, that pride is an aspect of the sin nature [there is no pride in Christ Jesus] and, therefore, pride is sin.
Is there anybody here who does not believe that we sin in our thoughts and in our emotions continuously?
Before we start, would everyone please make the following affirmation (retype it if you believe it).
Student A: I believe it.
Student C: I believe that I still sin in my thoughts and emotions continuously.
Student B: I believe that I have pride in my thoughts and emotions continuously.
Student D: I believe I sin in my thoughts and emotions continually.
Pastor Vitale: I am a fallen man, Satan is the unconscious part of my carnal mind, and Leviathan is the subconscious part of my carnal mind. Satan and Leviathan generate the thoughts of the carnal mind, and therefore I sin in my thoughts and my emotions all the day long.
What you have already written is OK.
Pastor Vitale: Student E?
Student E: I believe that I still sin in my thoughts and emotions continuously.
Pastor Vitale: Student D, do you believe that pride is sin?
Student D: Yes.
Pastor Vitale: OK, we're all set to straighten out the kinks in our thinking :).
Student A made two statements:
I don't know what happened with Bush, I had a car accident this morning.
The first statement, I don't know what happened with Bush, is called the statement of fact.
The second statement, I had a car accident this morning, is called a conclusion.
Some examples of a logical conclusion are: I don't know what happened with Bush, and I wish I did know, or, I am not interested in knowing, or, I was hoping to find out what happened in this meeting, or, my friend will tell me when I see her.
So, we see that a conclusion, to be valid and logical, must somehow relate to the statement of fact.
I am wearing a red blouse today (statement of fact) because -- draw a conclusion everyone.
Student B: I like the color red.
Student E: Because it goes with my pants.
Pastor Vitale: Everyone try please.
Student D: Because I like it.
Student C: Because this was the blouse I wanted to wear.
Student A: Because I like the color and it contrasts with my skirt.
Pastor Vitale: All of your answers are correct and excellent.
So now we all understand that our conclusion must relate to the statement of fact that it is associated with.
Let us look once again at Student A's statement and conclusion, I don't know what happened to Bush because I had a car accident.
What is wrong with this picture?
Student D: Mixing apples with oranges.
Student E: The accident is her explanation of why she did not know what happened to Bush.
Pastor Vitale: And what is wrong with this explanation, Student E?
Student E: It really has nothing to do with the election.
Student C: She changed the subject.
Pastor Vitale: Exactly!
The rule is, conclusions must be associated with the statement of fact.
I will exaggerate to make my point, I don't know what happened to Bush, because I had eggs for breakfast, because Bush's hair is black, because I am wearing my black suit today, because I have four children.
What I find so interesting, is that the problem that we are addressing today is the same problem of convoluted reasoning that we have heard coming forth from the Clinton administration for eight years.
Here are some examples of convoluted reasoning: Clinton produced an excellent economy (statement of fact); therefore, it is acceptable to have oral sex in the Oval Office (conclusion).
Another scenario would be, I do not have a television (statement of fact), you have a television (statement of fact); therefore, you must share your television with me (conclusion).
I have no television and you have two televisions (fact); therefore, you must give me one of your televisions (conclusion).
So we see that the corrupt mind that is manifesting in the world today is also manifesting in the Church.
Let us proceed with the matter at hand. Is there anyone who does see that Student A's reason for not having an opinion about Bush is illogical, unreasonable, and invalid?
OK, let's go on.
So I said to Student A, can you explain to me how this unfortunate incident is an explanation for not having an opinion about Bush?
I will repeat the three stages of our problem...
Student A says: I don't have an opinion about Bush because I had a car accident.
Sheila says, what does a car accident have to do with not having an opinion about Bush?
Student B: Because she really wanted to tell us all that she had an accident.
Pastor Vitale: I haven't asked for opinions about Student A's motive yet, Student B.
Student B: Sorry.
Pastor Vitale: Ok, but please hold your comment for the right time in the future.
Can everyone see that my question related back to the original question which was, does anyone have anything to say about the election? Here’s the scenario:
- Does anyone have anything to say about the election?
- I don't know about Bush
- Because I had a car accident
- What does car accident have to do with Bush?
Pastor Vitale: Is there anyone who cannot see that number three is not related to Nos. 1,2 and 4?
Test:
- I am wearing a red blouse today.
- I like red.
- I don't like wearing blouses.
- I prefer a dress.
- My car is black.
Which of the five statements does not logically relate to the other four statements? Everyone respond please.
Student A:#5
Student E: #5
Student B: #5
Student D: #5
Pastor Vitale:
- I went to the animal farm yesterday
- I saw pigs and goats.
- My washing machine is broken.
- Horses eat hay.
Pastor Vitale: Which number is not related to the other three?
Student D: #3
Student B: #3
Student A: #3
Student C: #3
Student E: #3
Pastor Vitale: So we see that we are talking about the relationship of ideas.
What is the effect of stating a fact and following it with an unrelated conclusion?
What is the result?
Student D: Confusion.
Student B: Confusion.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, confusion.
The next question is, did Student A know the correct answer?
We know that Student A knew the correct answer because after I asked her what a car accident had to do with an opinion of the election she said, I only saw the election on TV last night and didn't know too much about it before I had to run out this morning.
Now, this is the way the conversation should have gone.
- Will everybody please make some comment concerning the election.
- I only saw the election on TV last night and don't know much about it before I had to run out this morning.
So we see that the logical statement of fact that responds to my question is: I only saw the election on TV last night, and the logical conclusion is, I don't know much about it.
Was it necessary to say because I had to run out this morning?
Student C: No.
Student B: No.
Student D: No.
Pastor Vitale: Does this statement, because I had to run out this morning, have anything to do with the subject of our communication?
Let's try it in the format we have been working with.
- Please make a comment on the election.
- I don't know about Bush
- I had a car accident
- I watched the election on TV last night
- I had to run out this morning
Student D: #3
Student A:#3 & #5
Pastor Vitale: Is #3 the only statement that is not relevant?
Student B: #3 and #5
Student E: #3 and #5
Pastor Vitale: Yes, #3 and #5 are not relevant.
Student A: #3 & #5 are not relevant.
Pastor Vitale: Statements that do not logically fit in with a series of other statements are called irrelevant.
And irrelevant statements produce ????
Student B: Confusion.
Student D: Confusion.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, confusion.
Another word that we might use is extraneous. Extra words that do not clarify or enhance the idea that we are trying to communicate are extraneous. Extraneous, extra, hanging over...
Can anyone relate the term extraneous or hanging over to the Doctrine of Christ?
Concerning the primordial substance and its legitimate formation, what extraneous thing has come into existence?
Student D: This physical world.
Student C: This physical world is extraneous, or this realm of appearance is, it's an extra ring on creation. This physical body.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, Students C and D, you are correct.
Pastor Vitale: So, we now know that this physical world is extraneous, and we also know that extraneous can also mean irrelevant, and that irrelevant can also mean confusion.
What conclusion can we draw?
Student C: Where there is confusion there is strife and every evil work?
Student D: This world is confusion or Babylon.
1 Cor 14:33, For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
James 3:16, For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jer. 20:11, But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten. (KJV)
Pastor Vitale: From everything we have learned today, what conclusion can we draw about the term everlasting confusion in this verse?
Student C: As long as the motive is not correct, or the carnal mind is at work, there is always confusion.
Pastor Vitale: What is the everlasting confusion?
Student C: The carnal mind.
Pastor Vitale: Confusion is the physical world.
What does everlasting mean?
Student E: Continuous.
Pastor Vitale: Everlasting means eternal.
Student C: Continuing on without end.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, continuous. Yes without end.
So everlasting confusion would be referring to the immortality of this physical world, or this present age.
The Interlinear Text reveals that this verse is saying, Jehovah is with me, therefore, the mighty and terrible one my persecutor shall stumble. I can't do the whole verse while you wait, but the last few words mean, and Satan's (not) age of everlasting confusion shall be forgotten.
Hallelujah! This whole age shall be forgotten, as if it never existed.
Who is it that will forget this bad dream?
Who is the one that is living this nightmare?
Cain and Abel.
OK, let's get back to our exercise.
Student A, why do you think your carnal mind tried to inject confusion into this meeting?
Student A: Because I didn't know who won the election, and I wish I knew.
Pastor Vitale: OK, let's take a look at this.
- I didn't know who won the election.
- I wish I knew who won the election
- So I told you about my car accident.
This is convoluted reasoning.
I will give you the opportunity, Student A, to expose yourself before I turn you over to the group for a spiritual autopsy :).
Student A: Pride.
Pastor Vitale: Can you be more specific?
Student A: I didn't want to ask who won the election.
Pastor Vitale: God bless you, whose our eyes have been opened to your true motives.
Were you aware of this, Student A, at the time that you made the convoluted statement?
Student A: Yes.
Pastor Vitale: Thank you for your honesty, but I hope you realize that the fact that you knew what you were doing makes your sin more serious. Yet, on the other hand, because of your awareness, you are more equipped to make a decision to stop this form of mental manipulation.
One more thing, Student A, you say that you did not want to ask who won election, why did you not want to ask?
Student A: Because I felt dumb to ask.
Pastor Vitale: I think it is more accurate to say, Student A, that you did not want to admit that you did not know.
Student A: That's right.
Pastor Vitale: So, to not ask because you felt dumb, is not the correct answer. The statement of fact is that you did not want to admit that you did not know. Your motive is that you did not want to admit that you did not know.
- Student A did not know who won the election
- Student A did not want to admit that she did not know
- Therefore, Student A_______ what did Student A do, in one word?
Student A: Lied.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, Student A lied.
But Sheila, how could saying that you had a car accident, which is the truth, be a lie?
Can anyone answer this question?
Student B: It was a cover-up.
Student C: Student A had a car accident, and that is the truth, but it is not the truth of why she did not know the answer about Bush.
Student E: It was not an honest answer to the question.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, you are all correct.
It is true that Student A had a car accident, but to make this statement in response to a question that had nothing to do with the car accident, is a confusion and a manipulation.
A manipulation of what - in one word?
Student A: Truth.
Student B: Truth.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, confusion is a manipulation of the truth. Manipulation means to influence or manage shrewdly or deviously.
Example: He manipulated public opinion in his favor.
Manipulation means to tamper with or falsify for personal gain.
Did Student A's statement manipulate public opinion in her favor?
Student C: Yes.
Pastor Vitale: Is there a public opinion in this chat room?
Student C: Yes.
Pastor Vitale: Can you explain that more clearly, Student C?
Student A wanted everyone in the chat room to________?
Student C: It was designed to manipulate towards her favor, and cause the person to think about her unfortunate happening rather than the issue that she didn't know anything about Bush.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, Student A wanted the people in the chat room to think highly of her, and the mention of the accident was designed to hide the fact that she did not know who was elected.
So what conclusion can we draw from this?
- Student A wanted the people in the chat room to think highly of her
- Student A did not know who won the election
- Student A made an irrelevant statement that had nothing to do with the election because she thought_____?
- That if the people in the chat room knew that she did not know who won the election they would _______.
Student E: Think less of her.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, exactly!
So we see here even deeper levels of motive. Beyond Student A wanting to keep it quiet that she did not know who won the election, was a desire for respect and honor, and beyond a desire for respect and honor, was a fear of disrespect and rejection.
So we see that emotional and mental sin is a web consisting of many stages, or many steps, that is so complex, that the most basic motive is rarely revealed.
The truth is a straight arrow. Manipulation, as we said earlier, is convoluted reasoning, and as we also said earlier, convolute means rolled or coiled together in overlapping whorls.
A whorl is a form that coils or spirals.
Does anyone remember what the coil and the spiral represent?
Student C: Fiery Serpent.
Student A: Serpent.
Student B: Fiery Serpent.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, the coil represents the Fiery Serpent.
And the spiral?
Student E: Counterfeit timeline.
Pastor Vitale: What does the spiral represent in relation to the arrow?
The arrow represents the straight path of the spirit of Christ, and the spiral represents the circular path of the members of the Dragon's household. Actually, Satan's circular path.
So we see that Satan's spiralline path exists in the thinking patterns of the carnal mind.
And you thought that Satan's path existed only on the drawings that accompany our taped messages!!! :)
It is not a pretty thought that Satan is so intimately involved in the everyday workings of our mind, but if we cannot believe this we cannot overcome Satan since we must know our enemy before we can overcome her. Any soldier will tell you that. You'll never defeat an enemy that you do not know, and the more you understand her the greater your chance of defeating her. The more you defend her, the weaker your chance of spiritual ascension in Christ Jesus.
And why would anyone seek to defend Satan?
Because you are that woman Satan, also known as Jezebel, says your God.
Can anyone tell us the difference between Satan and Jezebel?
Satan is the spirit, and Jezebel is the human being that manifests Satan's nature towards Christ Jesus.
The human being that Christ Jesus speaks through is the spiritual man, and the human being that Satan speaks through is the spiritual woman.
Jezebel seeks to tear down the authority of the spiritual man and make him a spiritual woman, so that she can exalt herself into spiritual manhood and relate to the spiritual man as if he were the spiritual woman. Jezebel desires to dominate the spiritual man with the ungodly carnal mind.
So we see that when we speak of the carnal mind, we are talking about the reasoning mechanism of that mind, which is characterized by lies, deception, and manipulation. In general, convoluted thinking is designed to overturn Christ Jesus, the only one that can save us from this hellish existence, where the inhabitants of the land think it is normal for the physical body to dry up like the leaf of the tree, where there are all forms of debilitating mental and physical disorders, and where hunger and crime are considered something that will never go away, but can only be made better, or wax worse.
Choose you this day who you will be, an expression of Christ Jesus or an expression of the carnal mind.
It is impossible to be an expression of Christ Jesus without giving up self-preservation and all of the manifestations of pride that carnal man engages in to promote his own self-interests.
We will take a few minutes to deal with Student B's convoluted thinking.
- What was wrong with Student A's response (Sheila speaking)?
- It was an incomplete statement (Student B)
- What is missing from Student A's statement, Student B?
- Student A didn't report on the election clearly or at all (Student B).
Student B: That she didn't know whether Bush was elected or not.
Pastor Vitale: I see, Student B, that your answer was better than I realized, but let's take a look at it.
Well, you did answer the question with your second response, not all. So let's take a look at your first response, which is probably the one that I was responding to.
Student B, this is the second time that this meeting that you have spoken out of turn. Please do not speak unless it is in response to a specific question. That is the rule in this chatroom.
Your initial response was, she didn't report on the election clearly.
Can anyone tell us where the emphasis is in the statement, she did not report on the election clearly?
Student C: Clearly.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, the emphasis is on clearly.
- Student A's statement was incomplete.
2.What was missing?
Student A did not report on the election, is the correct answer, but the word clearly changes the whole response, and makes it incorrect. The word clearly suggests that Student A did respond to my question, but incompletely, which is a restatement of Student B's original response, to which I replied, what is missing. Does anyone not understand that the word clearly changes the whole meaning of the statement, she did not report on the election?
Does the first statement, she did not report on the election, tell us that Student A responded to my question, or did not respond to my request to comment on the election?
Everyone please respond.
Student B: Did not respond.
Student A: Did not respond to your question.
Pastor Vitale: Student E, Student C, Student D?
Student E: Did not respond.
Student C: Did not respond.
Student D: Didn't respond.
Pastor Vitale: And the second statement, she did not respond clearly, indicates that Student A did, or did not, respond?
Student C: Did.
Student A: Did.
Student E: Did.
Student B: Did.
Student D: Did.
Pastor Vitale: So, Student B, your confusion in this instance is not comparable to Student A's confusion.
So, we see that there are different levels of confusion. I would not call your thinking in this case convoluted, Student B, although your thinking is frequently convoluted.
I do not feel to take another example this evening, but we will be analyzing the responses of the brethren more and more frequently, as the Lord leads me.
The Lord is telling me that it is not enough for me to merely say to you, what you just said was a lie, even if you are willing to admit that I know what I am talking about.
The Lord has now revealed to me that it is necessary for me to dissect your reasoning and the motives that generate your reasoning, if you are to truly recognize Satan's gyrations in your mind.
A gyration is a circular or spiral motion.
Student A, you were in an excellent spirit through what I am sure has been a very trying afternoon for you.
Is anyone willing to try the spirit that was on Student B when I said we would deal with her convoluted thinking?
Did anyone perceive movement in the spirit at that time?
I perceived the motions of your sin nature at that time, Student B. Leviathan rose up, frantically, to defend you, and it was that rush of energy that caused you to speak out of turn.
Rom 7:5,5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (KJV)
Pastor Vitale: So not only did your sin nature rise up to defend you, but you agreed with her, and spoke out of turn to defend yourself.
This is the program, brethren:
- The exposure of sin,
- The distinguishing between the sin nature and the Christ nature,
- The agreement with the Christ nature,
- The disagreement with the sin nature,
- The resistance of the sin nature,
- The adamant refusal to obey the sin nature,
- The paralysis of the sin nature,
- The withering of the sin nature,
- The death of the sin nature.
Numbers 7- 9 take place within the individual. The collective sin nature, which is beyond the individual, continues to exist even after the sin nature is withered in the individual
- Circumcision - the actual separation from the collective sin nature which exists beyond the individual.
Number 10 is perfection, sinlessness and unending life.
Will everyone please identify what stage of the program they are presently laboring in.
Student C: I have experienced more than one of these stages in different areas.
Student D: I'd guess 6.
Pastor Vitale: Please name them, and I will tell you if I agree with you.
Student B: #1
Student C: 1-6
Student E: #5
Student A: 1, Exposure of sin
Pastor Vitale: Student C, I agree with your evaluation of yourself.
Student B, I agree with your evaluation of yourself. You are presently engaged in recognizing your sin nature.
Student E, you cannot resist your sin nature until you recognize it, and you have just begun to take a peek.
Student A, I agree with your evaluation of yourself, you are just beginning to understand the operation of your sin nature.
Student D, you are completely deceived. You are not even looking at your sin nature. You have made many BEHAVIORAL CHANGES, but your heart has not given up its lover, Satan, nor has it stopped, on any level, FROM DEFENDING ITSELF AGAINST THE TRUTH, as the Spirit of Christ sees it.
May the blind eyes of all of us open, and our deaf ears,
May our withered arms grow out, and our crippled legs walk again,
May we all be made whole in Christ Jesus,
May our sins be forgiven in reality, which is the plucking up of the potential to sin,
May Christ Jesus be exalted in us,
May He live through us, think through us, walk through us, and talk through us, which is our salvation, the salvation of the personality.
May everyone here, and everyone who seriously reads this transcript, go forward with renewed strength against our strong enemy, Satan, the god of this world, who blinds the eyes of the proud hearts, and makes them think they are something that they are not, so that they fall by the wayside and die in the desert.
We thank you Lord for your intervention in our lives,
We thank you for your grace, for your mercy, for your love,
We thank you for the Spirit of Truth, for the Doctrine of Christ, for your sacrifice on the cross of Calvary, for your glorious spiritual Blood,
We thank you for repentance, for the power to repent, the grace to repent, for deliverance, and for your great Salvation.
Forgive our sins, oh God, and deliver the spiritual cripple who cannot see his sins.
Anathema Maranatha, may we not be cursed because our faith is in good works, but may the unity of Christ Jesus in the midst of us, together with the glorified Jesus Christ, who is above, impart the true, spiritual salvation to us all.
God bless you all.
Goodnight
