The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
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Comment 1: I read something today and I said, Wow! I want to share it with you. The Lord has shown me things that make me go Wow! He has opened my eyes to the depths of what He is saying, things that you would not perceive if you read it one way. It is like you could almost look at it another way. The Lord really showed me something that was really awesome. I just want to share it with you; I want to see what you think.
Pastor Vitale: Let us wait and see which way the Lord is leading. This meeting is basically questions and answers. We just let the Spirit move, and we never know where the first move is going to come from. Maybe it is from you. Well, why not start by giving what the Lord showed you?
Comment 1: I was reading in Ephesians, where it says we are made alive in Christ. It speaks in a sense of Jesus Christ but, also as Christ being separate from Jesus, and I did not realize this until today.
Comment 2: Where?
Comment 1: Ephesians, Chapter 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:13-17
13.But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even
the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16.And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17.And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. KJV
So Jesus was a man, who Christ filled. He was filled with Christ and became one, because it also says that His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two. It was really so awesome, it blew me right away. I was rejoicing. Praise God, it was so overwhelming. I was so full when I read this.
Pastor Vitale: Who were the two men?
Comment 1: Jesus and Satan, I would suppose.
Pastor Vitale: The Christ mind and the carnal mind.
Comment 1: The carnal mind, right.
Pastor Vitale: That was really close, good enough.
Comment 1: I said, could this mean that there were actually two living in the one body?
Pastor Vitale: Let us back up. Within the man Jesus, there was the mind of Christ and the carnal mind....
Comment 1: Right.
Pastor Vitale: ...and of the two, he made one new man. In that joining the carnal mind was slain, it died.
Comment 1: It was so beautiful. I finally saw a light that I never saw before. With open eyes, and my heart open to receive, I read it and I just could not believe what I saw. It says, But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. So it was Christ's Blood that was spilt.
Pastor Vitale: Spiritual blood
Comment 1: Amen. It was just so beautiful.
Pastor Vitale: Christ is a mind. He is not a human being, he is a mind. So when his blood was spilt, it was his spiritual blood.
Comment 1: It was just so beautiful. I kind of received that as being two people. It is like there were two people living, and one overcomes the carnal mind. The Spirit of Christ would overcome the carnal mind and make the whole temple one. It was so beautiful.
Pastor Vitale: Amen
Comment 2: Where is that?
Comment 1: It is in Ephesians, Chapter 2:13-17. In verse 15 and 16, it says that he created in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross. Praise God.
Ephesians 2:15-16
15.Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16.And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: KJV
Comment 2: What was the revelation?
Comment 1: It was just that I did not acknowledge that it was two bodies. I did not know that there would be two bodies living in the one temple, and that it was actually a battle within the temple as to who would control it. To my understanding, it is like we have the carnal mind, or the negative thoughts, and then we have Christ which is a positive thought. To me, it is like he says there are two living inside of us. Greater is he who is in us that he who is in the world, the world being the carnal mind.
Pastor Vitale: Please use the microphone when you want to speak. I am sorry we only have only two, so you have to jump up and down.
Comment 2: I respectfully do not see it that way. What I get out of that is that in the previous Scriptures, he is talking about Jews and Gentiles. Those circumcised in the flesh, circumcision made with hands, referring to the Jews, versus those not circumcised in the flesh, referring to the Gentiles, and what he says here is that he made....
Pastor Vitale: What verses are you talking about?
Comment 2: Let us start from verse 11.
Ephesians 2:11-15
11.Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12.That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13.But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15.Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; KJV
Comment 2: Verse 13 says, But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. And then it goes on to say in verse 14, He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of division between us having abolished in His flesh.... I think what that is referring to is Israel and the Gentiles. The Gentiles who believe in Christ were Christians, and he even says in verse 12, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, so that is referring to the Gentiles. Paul is referring to the Ephesians who are Gentiles.
Pastor Vitale: Excuse me. I understand that you have a different understanding of the Scriptures than we do. I know xxxx has told you that we have we have a different understanding here than you do, and that there is a Letter of the Word and there is a Spirit of the Word. All that I would say to you is that since you did join us, I would ask that you do not teach. It is not that I am not open to your opinion, but, what is happening here is that you are bringing in your teaching of the Letter and here we teach of the Spirit. If you would like to listen, that is okay. You are free to disagree but, I would have to ask that you do not teach, because we do not teach that here.
Comment 2: I was not trying to teach. I was disagreeing and showing you why I disagree.
Pastor Vitale: This is not a debate. It is a question and answer session and I am the teacher.
Comment 2: Okay.
Pastor Vitale: Praise God. You are free to disagree and you are free to ask any questions that you like, but it is not a debate. I am the teacher and we do preach here from the Spirit of the Word. You are very free to join us, to listen, agree, disagree, whatever you like, okay? Praise God. All that I can say is I believe that it would edify you to just listen to what we have to say and give the Lord a chance to minister to you.
Surely you must admit that the Scripture does say that there is a Letter and that there is a spiritual understanding and that the Letter killeth and that the Spirit maketh alive. What I am going to ask you to do tonight is at least try to identify which is the Letter and which is the Spirit. How could you tell which is truth if you cannot identify both? Let me put this another way. Can you say amen that the Scriptures say there is a Letter of the Word and there is a Spirit of the word? Can you say amen to that?
Comment 2: Letter of the Word and Spirit of the Word?
Pastor Vitale: The letter killeth, and the Spirit maketh alive.
Comment 2: Are you asking me what I think?
Pastor Vitale: I am not asking you what you think. I want to give you something to think about. I want to ask you to take Scripture and identify the Letter of that Scripture and the Spirit of that Scripture. Can you do that? I think that would help if we could identify the Letter of the Scripture and the Spirit. You are free to decide which one you want to believe. I could be wrong, and forgive me if I am wrong, but, I really think that....
Comment 2: Did xxxx not say that the carnal mind was made one with two persons inside?
Pastor Vitale: Can I comment on that and then I will answer your question? The Spirit of the Scriptures, you cannot see so maybe you could listen tonight. As I said, you are free to disagree and I will be glad to answers any questions that you have after I talk.
Jesus the man was the only begotten Son of the Father. He was begotten of the seed of the Father. His Father was God. He was born inside of a human woman. God did not impart that body to Him; the human woman that He was born in imparted the body and the soul to Him. His body and His soul was a product which was descended from the line of David, which was perfect under the curse but not perfect under the spiritual law of God.
The man Jesus had the mind of His Father, and that which He inherited from His mother, the carnal mind. What He did was that He took authority over the thing in his mind that he inherited from his mother that was not of God (His carnal mind) and he slew it, and because he was in perfection the Father raised Him from the dead. So there were two minds.
If you study this in the Greek (I do not know if you study in the Greek or not), if you look at these Scriptures in the Greek, it is very clear that the twain, the two minds, were within Himself, and He took that part of Him that He inherited from His mother and utterly bent it and bowed it down to the Christ within. That is what that Scripture is talking about.
I know that there are other kinds of teachings, but it is time for us to grow up into Christ. What the Lord is telling us in this hour is that He wants this mind of Christ to be built in us and to come forth in us and to be revealed in us, that Christ should be revealed in His people. We are the living testimony that Jesus Christ is raised from the dead, when His mind and His personality appear through us to the heathen.
In this hour He is challenging us to receive the Spirit of the Word which will build His mind in us. He says, Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 2:5) and this mind is not being built in us when we take these Scriptures and relate them to carnal events out there. Christ is a mind and He wants to be built in us. We are the Temple of the Holy Ghost, are we not? It is time to take these Scriptures and to start directing them inward. It is time to see that this stone which we are, which is a part of the Temple, is going to be built in us. Praise God.
2 Corinthians 3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. KJV
Therefore, when that Scripture says, that the Letter killeth and the Spirit giveth life it means that if you take the Word.... this Scripture, this book is not the Word of God, this is just a book. The Word of God is a Living Spirit. This is just a book with written words. It is a book that is a point of contact that helps us get close to the Spirit of God because we are carnal and He is spirit. This helps Him to reach us.
The hour is come that He wants to build this Word in us, because we are the Temple of the Holy Ghost. He wants to appear in us. He has great and precious promises for us and for us to receive them the Kingdom of God must be built within us and the mind of Christ must appear from within us. The Kingdom of God is within you.
A study of the Scriptures that turns our eyes towards the outer world (natural Israel.... I know many of the things that are said) is the Letter of the Word. Any understanding of the Scriptures that turns us away from ourselves is the Letter of the Word and it brings death. Why? Because if Christ is not built in us, death is built in us. However, the Spirit turns it inward and shows that God is re-making us and bringing us forth in His image and that gives life. Why? Because as the Kingdom of God is built in us it gives life to our soul and to our flesh. Praise God, Hallelujah, thank you Father.
Comment 1: May I say something?
Pastor Vitale: Sure.
Comment 1: I have been reading the Scriptures, and I notice that it is almost like three different groups of people that Jesus speaks of. He said servant, then, I no longer call you a servant but a friend, and then sons (and daughters). Some people actually stay as a servant; they do not know how to cross that boundary and become a friend. Even some do not know how to become a true son or daughter of God.
Pastor Vitale: I do not think it is a question of not knowing how. It depends on the call on your life.
Comment 1: Right. I felt like the Spirit told me that there were three different dimensions and a lot of people do not realize that.
Pastor Vitale: Yes. Moses was a servant of God. That is easy; we know that there is a Scripture that says that. What was Moses in relationship to God? He was a carnal man who had a relationship with the Father by the intermediary, which was what? Does anybody know Moses's connection to God? No? Moses's connection was the old covenant. It was the covenant that was given through Moses to the children of Israel. It was not the covenant that we see today, where we see the Holy Spirit.
The servant of God is a man typified also by John the Baptist, who had a relationship with the Father based on the mosaic covenant. What is the over-ridding characteristic of the mosaic covenant? You could only go so far in attaining to righteousness under the mosaic covenant. You could go to the priest and sacrifice bulls and oxen and goats and you can be justified before God but you still die.
You could have a relationship with God while you stayed in this vile human flesh but you continued to die. You lived out your life and you died. Then your children lived out their lives and they died. That's the ultimate of the Mosaic covenant. It could not produce eternal life; it produced blessings in the earth at that time.
What was the over-riding function of God's covenant with the Hebrew children? Does anyone know what that was? What was the over-riding purpose? The purpose of God's covenant with the Hebrew children was to produce Christ. It was to produce the seed that would give the opportunity to the whole world to enter into a spiritual covenant with Christ, which will ultimately produce eternal life.
The covenant between God and the Hebrew children which was mediated by Moses could never produce eternal life. What was the purpose of all of that work and all of that sacrifice and all that bondage and all that burden for those thousands of years? We are told in the Scriptures the Law was too heavy for any man to bear. What was all that for? It produced the seed of Christ.
When Jesus gave up His soul life and returned unto the Father and became pure Spirit, He was now in a position where He could pour out of His Spirit upon all flesh, and a drop of Him is in each of us. How do I know that a drop of His Glorified Spirit is in each of us? I perceive it in you, I discern it in you.
Jesus Christ was the end of the Law.
Romans 10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. KJV
The Law of Moses came to an end when Jesus Christ manifested, because that was the purpose of the Law. There was no more reason for the Law. While He was the end of the Law, He was also the beginning of the new covenant, which was not only restricted to natural Israel but went to....
Where was the new covenant offered to? It was offered to the whole world, to the world. That is how Jesus is the end of the Law. When He manifested there was no more purpose for it. Glory to God. Was I answering a question? What was I talking about? I lost my track.
Comment 1: About the three different relationships with God, servant, friend and son.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, so the servant is the man that has a relationship with the Father based on the relationship that was available through the old covenant. Eternal life is not included in it.
Comment 2: Did the Jews obtain eternal life under that old covenant?
Pastor Vitale: No, they did not. Do you think they did? On what basis do you think so?
Comment 2: The way I understand it, Jesus descended into hell when He died. There He preached and led captivity captive, and there were Jews in Abraham's bosom that He led out from that chamber, that part of hell called paradise. So Jews that kept the Law and were covered by the animal sacrifices, when Jesus entered into paradise after He died and before He rose, He preached that message, and at that point those people followed Him out of there.
Therefore I think that they were covered under the old covenant, the ones that kept the law and were covered by the blood sacrifices. However, they could not get into heaven because they were not born-again, and they could not be born-again until Jesus died and rose, and that is what happened. That is the way I perceive the Scriptures.
Pastor Vitale: I know that is the way that it is taught.
Comment 2: You do not agree with that?
Pastor Vitale: No. I know that is what is taught. I have been studying in the Greek for ten years and I understand.... This is why I prayed for a spirit of reconciliation when we started. I just pray that Jesus be glorified in this.
Comment 2: Amen.
Pastor Vitale: It must be very hard for you to hear this.
Comment 2: I know that I am born-again and saved and I believe that you are born-again and saved and we are one family. We are brother and sister, and I respect you on that, but I respectfully disagree....
Pastor Vitale: Are you open to the Lord witnessing to you that maybe there is a deeper understanding?
Comment 2: Yes, He is my teacher. You do not believe that anyone prior to the new covenant attained to heaven?
Pastor Vitale: No.
Comment 2: Only the people from Christ on are going to get into heaven? What about the Jews?
Pastor Vitale: The Jews are going to be grafted back into their own tree.
Comment 2: What about the Jews before Jesus?
Pastor Vitale: No.
Comment 2: No? They did not make it?
Pastor Vitale: I believe the Scripture says the soul that sin dies. The soul that sins dies. What I am suggesting to you is that only their spirit went to the Father.
Ezekiel 18:4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. KJV
Ezekiel 18:20: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. KJV
Comment 2: Okay. I am not trying to teach anybody here. I am sure you know more than I do, but, Jesus said that God is the Father of the living, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Matthew 22:3: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. KJV
Also on the mount of transfiguration, when James and John and Peter, I believe, were with Jesus on the mount, Moses and Elijah appeared to them. That would indicate that they were still alive, would it not?
Pastor Vitale: Yes, their spirit. It was the spirit of Moses and the spirit of Elijah that ascended, it was not their personality. Let me recall a Scripture to you, where Jesus said, If you can receive it, upon John the Baptist is the Spirit of Elijah. He said that if you can receive it, receive it.
Matthew 11:12-15
12.And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13.For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14.And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. KJV
Luke 1:13, 17
13.But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
17.And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. KJV
What would this mean, if Jesus said, this man John Baptist, if you can receive it, this is the spirit of Elijah? What does that mean? Most of us in the Church today have trouble discerning between our spirit and our soul. Our soul is our personality. Jesus did not say, that is the soul of Elijah. He said that is the spirit of Elijah. How do we distinguish our spirit from our soul?
I want to suggest to you that our spirit, if you are here, is Christ and that man, John the Baptist, had the same manifestation of Christ that Elijah had. They did the same things in Christ. They were prophets. They rebuked the king. They were Holy men. They were consecrated unto God. They both were celibate, Nazarites.
Comment 2: Do you believe that Jesus ascended physically into heaven or in spirit only? You said before, you made a statement that He went only in the spirit, He ascended in the spirit.
Pastor Vitale: Oh no. No, no. Men who have not attained to perfection, only their spirit goes forward; their soul and body die because of sin. However, Jesus was perfect, so He took His spirit, soul and body into heaven.
Comment 2: He is physically in heaven?
Pastor Vitale: Yes, but He could only do it because he was without sin. Every other human being that has ever died was not raised from the dead because there was sin in their flesh, so it was just their spirit that went on. The reason the spirit goes on is our spirit is that part of us which is like the Father.
Comment 2: Okay, so the soul does not go with the spirit?
Pastor Vitale: It goes only when the soul is free from sin, and the only man that ever succeeded in purifying his soul, in killing his carnal mind was Jesus Christ. He is the only man that ever did it. He brought that carnal mind into total submission to His holiness. I believe that is Roman I verse 4.
Romans 1:4: And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: KJV
He brought the soul that he inherited from his mother (which was his personality, his human personality), he brought it into submission to the righteousness of the Father that was imparted to him.
Comment 2: Can I ask you a question?
Pastor Vitale: Sure.
Comment 2: When Jesus talks about the rich man, and the poor man, Lazarus, in the bosom of Abraham, it would indicate that the rich man who was in hell (there was a great gulf between them), had a consciousness, awareness, and knew who he was. He was not just a spirit but, he had his personality, he had his soul, he had everything. It would also appear that Abraham, father Abraham, had his consciousness, his awareness and was aware of things. How do you explain that?
Pastor Vitale: First of all, when Jesus told that parable, He was speaking to the Pharisees, and they become enraged at Him because they knew that He was speaking to them, and they knew that it was a parable.
I want to make a suggestion to you; I have a whole tape on that. As I studied it in the Greek it became very obvious that Jesus was speaking about Israel, that the rich man typifies Israel in future generations. He was saying, Israel you have got the anointing and you are not using it the way God wants you to use it. You are lifted up in pride.
Luke 16:19-31
19.There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20.And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21.And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22.And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23.And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24.And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25.But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26.And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27.Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28.For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29.Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31.And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. KJV
If you look up those words in Greek, it says, that the rich man died unregenerate. He did all the works of the law, he made the sacrifices, but his soul was not converted. The result of it was that in future generations Israel lost the anointing. Has that not come to pass?
Lazarus typifies the Gentile. There is a key point here, I do not recall it exactly, but as I say, I have a whole tape on it. When you look at that parable, it talks about.... I can not recall exactly, but, there were words in there that indicate that Jesus was talking about Lazarus being a king and priest.
In the Old Testament, you were either a king or a priest. The combination of being a king and a priest only exists in the new convent. As you follow that parable through, you will see that, that is a key word that indicates that Jesus was talking about the Gentiles in future generations who had inherited the anointing. There was no way anyone could be both a king and a priest at that time.
It was a very important parable, and the Jews that were listening knew that He was saying to them, Your heart is wicked. He called them whited walls. He said, You are walking around and there are dead men's bones in your heart. He rebuked them continuously, saying, You stand up in the market place and you make loud prayers but your heart is wicked. That was what he was saying to them.
Matthew 23:13-14
13.But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. KJV
Matthew 23:25-28
25.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26.Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28.Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. KJV
You are unregenerate, for all of your works. You clean your cups, and you clean your forks, but, your heart is the carnal mind and it is not the mind of Christ. With all of your works you have not brought forth the mind of Christ, and in future generations you would loose the anointing. That was what He was saying to them. I looked up every single word in that parable in the Greek. Hallelujah, thank you Jesus.
Comment 3: It was a parable, right? There was no man named Lazarus; that was a parable?
Pastor Vitale: It was a parable.
Comment 3: How come he used the name Lazarus, when there was no man named Lazarus?
Pastor Vitale: He is not talking about the Lazarus that he raised from the dead, because....
Comment 3: I know that it could not be.
Pastor Vitale: ....the Lazarus he raised from the dead was a Jew. In this parable, Lazarus was a Gentile. He was the poor man, spiritually poor. The Jew was spiritually rich, and he had no mercy on the Gentile. Jesus was rebuking the Jews.
It is the same or very similar message in the Book of Jonah. Jonah was annoyed, if not outraged, that God wanted to send the Word to a foreign nation, to the heathen. He did not want to go; he did not want to preach it.
God threw him in a big fish, you know the whole story. He came out of the fish, and he sent him, and he went and he preached it and when they repented, he was so mad that he went away sulking. Why? It is because the Jews felt that the inheritance of God was just for them.
I want to tell you that I have an on-going dialogue for two years now with a Hasidic rabbi and he could be coming right out of the page of this book. That is what they believe. They believe that salvation, yes, is going to touch the world, but, no one will ever be equal to the Jew. That is what they believe, I am telling you, and Jesus was rebuking them for it.
Comment 2: May I ask a question?
Pastor Vitale: Sure, it is a question and answer session, questions and answers.
Comment 2: Why did Jesus say that he was sent to the house of Israel, that he was not sent to the Gentiles, and the woman said, yes, Lord even the dogs get the crumb off the floor. Even Jesus himself said he was not sent but to the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:22-28
22.And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23.But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24.But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25.Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26.But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27.And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28.Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. KJV
Pastor Vitale: He was sent to the house of Israel, but after the crucifixion and the resurrection and the accession, Paul was sent to the Gentiles.
Comment 2: Right, but, when you were referring to Jonah in the Old Testament Scriptures, you said that the Jews were not ministering the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles. Was Jonah supposed to minister to the Gentiles at that time period?
Pastor Vitale: That is a very good question; I do not have all the answers. The only thing I can say, in response to that, is that I do not know for sure that Jonah ever existed and that he was anymore than a parable.
Comment 2: Jonah?
Pastor Vitale: The Book of Jonah. I personally.... maybe someone has more information than me. I personally do not know that he ever existed and that it was not a parable written by the Holy men of Israel in that day, who had a lot of revelation.
Comment 2: Was Jonah not a prophet?
Pastor Vitale: I do not know. If I am not mistaken (I have the open Bible), when you read the introduction, if I am not mistaken, they say that they are not sure, but I do not know. If he was a prophet, then let me give you this answer, if he was a prophet. God is sovereign and He could move on any Gentile at any time He wanted.
We know that Balaam was a prophet of God, and that he was a Gentile and we know that God spoke clearly in a dream to Pharaoh. If Jonah was a real prophet (and I say openly I do not know, he could have been), if he was, if God sent him to that heathen nation, then God had a purpose in that heathen nation.
Whatever that heathen nation got, it was not eternal life, because eternal life was not available before the resurrection. God may have brought some kind of.... If it was in reality a nation, God may have brought some kind of major deliverance to the nation, but, eternal life did not become available until after the resurrection. God is a merciful God.
Comment 2: Then all the Jews that lived, and kept the Law under the Mosaic covenant are dead and their spirits are dead, and there is no eternal life for them? Moses, and Elijah and Enoch and all those guys, they are all dead?
Pastor Vitale: No, no, their spirits are not dead.
Comment 2: But they do not have eternal life?
Pastor Vitale: The personalities and the bodies that existed in that day do not have eternal life. The personality and the body that we wear are just the garments. The Scripture clearly states that we are spirits, we are spirits, and this body is just a passing thing. We are going to get a new garment, and Paul clearly said that which is sown looks different than that which is reaped.
1 Corinthians 15:44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. KJV
We are spirits. We are in the likeness of God, and we are spirits. God is Spirit, we are spirit. God does not have two arms and two legs and a nose and two eyes; I hope you all know that. That part of us that is like God is our spirit. We were just formed out of the dust of the ground. Dust, that is what we are, dust.
Comment 2: If we are born-again now, do we have eternal life, now?
Pastor Vitale: No, you have to tell me, whether you are you asking about your spirit or soul or your body.
Comment 2: I know the body corrupts and dies, and the soul needs to be renewed by the Word of God. The spirit I perceive to be saved. Are we saved now or are we....
Pastor Vitale: The spirit is redeemed and that word, redeem, means to be purchased. When Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by the Father, he purchased back the creation of God. Our spirit is redeemed, it is purchased back. The way I could explain that to you, it would be as if some millionaire, a businessman, makes a deal and he purchased the United States of America and he now owns it and it is all on paper.
He says, I am going in there, and I am going to fix you up and I going to renovate you and I am going to make all things new and I am going to do away with all the sins and all the violence and all the corruption and I am going to get rid of every spot and every wrinkle and you are going to be beautiful and I am gong to pave these streets with gold. But from the time he says it and until the time he does it, it is not done yet. Our spirit is purchased, we are redeemed.
Comment 2: Do we have eternal life now?
Pastor Vitale: Our spirit does, yes.
Comment 2: We are a new creation?
Pastor Vitale: We are being made new in His image, but we are no different than the people out there in the street.
Comment 2: We are we not any different?
Pastor Vitale: We get sick, we have the same problems. Do you not have the same problem that the people in the street have?
Comment 2: No.
Pastor Vitale: You do not?
Comment 2: No, no, they are, at this point, without God and in this world without hope. I am not without God and I am not without hope. I am in this world but, I am not off this world.
Pastor Vitale: But you are capable of getting sick, are you not?
Comment 2: Ummm....
Pastor Vitale: If a car hits your body, will your body get broken?
Comment 2: Yes, sure.
Pastor Vitale: Are you capable of having a wound in your soul? Can you get hurt?
Comment 2: I have eternal life and I believe that we can walk in divine health.
Pastor Vitale: But do we? Do you know one Christian that... Let me make a distinction for you. There is a difference between divine health and being without sickness. Divine health means we are incapable of becoming sick, and then there is a condition of being without sickness but capable of being sick.
Let me give you a Scriptural example. The body that Jesus was in was capable of being destroyed, only with his permission, but, it was capable of being destroyed. The body He has now is a glorious body that is incapable of being destroyed. Can you really say that you know one man that if he was exposed to plague, if tuberculosis bacteria was dropped on his tongue, that he would not contract the disease?
Comment 2: I believe that we could be attacked but, I also believe that by His stripes we are healed.
Pastor Vitale: But divine health is not healing. Divine health means you can not get sick. There is difference between divine healing and divine health.
Comment 2: I do not want to say that I disagree but....
Pastor Vitale: It is not a question of disagreeing, this is a reality.
Comment 2: Divine health.... I think by His stripes we are healed. We have the promise and if we claim that.... and it says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood.
Pastor Vitale: You do not know one Christian that was not healed and died? I know many.
Comment 2: Oh, I know some, yes, right.
Pastor Vitale: So what is the problem?
Comment 2: It could have been hindrances, like lack of faith. There were hindrances, but I think that the Bible says by His stripes we were healed.
Pastor Vitale: How come they were not healed?
Comment 2: Because of hindrances. Again I am very anti-condemnation. In fact, if you recall I was the one that said before, prop them up, and the Lord will deflate them if they need deflating, but we should prop each other up. We should exalt one another and encourage one another and help each other. I am very much against condemnation.
The Old Testament Christians, the Old Testament saints, I believe (well, we disagree on that), I believe that they are saved, praise God, Glory to God, but that we have a better covenant, the new covenant, that is Jesus. I think that the spirit and soul go together, and we get a new body eventually, and that is what I believe. I do believe in healing.
Pastor Vitale: You can disagree with me. You are free to disagree.
Comment 2: Inaudible
Pastor Vitale: Can I make that clear, you were teaching. To ask a question and to disagree with me is not the same thing as teaching. You were teaching. You are free to disagree with me and you are free to reject everything that I am saying if you want to. To teach and to disagree is a spirit. It is the spirit that you talk in. Everything is spirit and you had a spirit of teaching on you and I had to stop it, because it was a teaching that is not a part of this ministry. But the spirit that you are in now is fine. I am really sorry if I hurt your feelings.
Comment 2: You did not hurt my feeling; I just do not want to offend you.
Pastor Vitale: You are not offending me. You are not offending me.
Comment 2: I did not come here tonight to be contentious, to teach you or anything like that.
Pastor Vitale: You are not offending me. I really hope that you can enjoy the rest of the meeting. You are fine now, but let me ask you something.
Comment 2: I did not agree with my brother about what he saw, praise God.
Pastor Vitale: Okay, that is fine.
Comment 2: I can see that he is blessed. I can see that that he loves Jesus....
Pastor Vitale: Excuse me a minute, I really want to say some more. We are not finished with the other subject yet because I have to tell you my opinion. You can tell me your opinion. The Church world is in deep denial of the reality of what they are preaching. Let me ask you a question. Do you call yourself a male? Are you a male? You are a physical male, right? Is there anything that can make you a not a male? Could you wake up tomorrow and not be a male because of a hindrance or because there is sin? If you sin, do you stop being a man?
Comment 2: No. I am trying to relate the....
Pastor Vitale: Let me give you another example, let me go back. I do not mean to be giving you a hard time. I really hope that God blesses you. I want to tell you something. Nobody makes it to this house unless God brings them here, and I really hope that you walk out of here with a great blessing from God.
The reality is that the Church is in denial. They have laid hold of the Bible (by and large, as a general rule, there are always exceptions), and they do not understand that many of the things in this Bible are promises that have not yet been worked into our lives. To walk around in a world where there is so much disease, where there are Christians who are sick....
Many are healed, I know. My life was spared three times; the most recent time was just two years ago. I should have died, and I should have died two times before that. I have been delivered from demons. I have been delivered from several curses of death, so I am not talking from outer space. My life has been saved. I should have been dead fifteen years ago.
We are living in a Church world where Christians die, where Christians are sick, where Christians are tormented, with chemotherapy and all kinds of problems. I was in the hospital for three months, two years ago. I ministered to a woman that had a stroke, and then she had another stroke. She was a Christian woman. God sent me right into her room. The Church world says, I am healed by His stripes. There is something wrong with what you are preaching, and you want to know something? You want to know something? The world knows it. They look at the Church and they say, Something is wrong!
Comment 2: Can I say something?
Pastor Vitale: Yes, sure.
Comment 2: I can disagree, you said that?
Pastor Vitale: Absolutely, feel free.
Comment 2: Okay, respectfully I disagree. I am not trying to teach, but, I feel as though divine healing is ours if we appropriate it. I feel that we have to wrestle for divine healing, like the Scriptures says, we wrestle not against flesh and blood. I think the only thing that was free to us was the initial salvation, when our spirits got saved, through the blood of Christ, and that if any man be in Christ he is a new creation. That was free, costly to God, but free to us.
As far as the rest of it is concerned, the Scripture says we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, etc. I take it to mean that we have to wrestle for the divine health that I spoke of before. I think it is there for us, but it is part of the gifts that we need to wrestle for. That is just it.
We can be attacked and we are attacked. I went to see a brother who eventually died from cancer about two years ago, he was a Christian. Again he was not smoking. I think that certain diseases can be your fault. If you smoke you get lung cancer; the devil did not do it, you did it through your stupidity. You smoked and got cancer. Or if you walk half clothed in the middle of winter, having taken a shower and not dried off and you get pneumonia, that is your fault. It is not the devil. It is you; that was stupid. God gives us wisdom.
However, if out of the blues, you let cancer come upon you.... and that is what happened to this brother and he died, he succumbed to it. He said to me, I do not know if it is the will of God that I should not have this. I said, Brother, how is this cancer glorifying the Father?
I gave him some Scriptures which indicated that by His stripes we are healed. I said, You know that it would be much more glorious, though you were attacked with cancer, to be healed. You cannot deny that it is in your body. For you to say that you do not have cancer, would be stupid. You have cancer, but, you can deny its right to be there.
Pastor Vitale: Amen, I agree with that.
Comment 2: That is what I refer to as divine healing. You know, divine healing is....
Pastor Vitale: May I interrupt you for just a second.
Comment 2: Sure.
Pastor Vitale: I just like to make it clear that we are talking about two different things here and we seem to be over lapping, divine health and divine healing. I believe in divine healing. I have had more healing than any person that I know. I believe in divine healing. I believe in divine health also. I just have not personally met anyone that has it.
Comment 2: I believe some prophets of God that are alive today have been walking in divine healing for many, many years. One such person is Kenneth Hagin.
Pastor Vitale: Divine healing or divine health?
Comment: Divine health. Kenneth Hagin professes to be walking in divine health, and I believe him. Another one is John Olsten, and people like this, but as I said, especially, Kenneth Hagin. He is attacked from time to time but he has not succumbed to sickness.
Pastor Vitale: I would just have to say to you at this point if we cannot agree on our definitions of what divine health is, there is really no point in going on with this area. We would have to agree on our definitions of divine health, I hope your can say amen to that.
Comment 2: Divine health is when you never get sick, is that what you are saying?
Pastor Vitale: Divine health would mean that we are in a condition where we are incapable of being sick. If plague germs were put right in our mouth, we would not get sick. Divine healing is dominion over disease, which I most certainly believe in and have experienced.
Comment 2: The only one thing.... When you gave that example of putting stuff on your skin?
Pastor Vitale: Yes?
Comment 2: Lake, George Lake, I believe was his name....
Pastor Vitale: John Lake
Comment 2: John Lake. Back when they had this plague and the doctors wanted to know what kept him alive and they took saliva of dead men who had died from these diseases....
Pastor Vitale: Right.
Comment 2: ...and he said, you put that on my flesh, and as soon as it touches my flesh it will die, and it did.
Pastor Vitale: It did, but he is just one man out of billions. How do you explain that?
Comment 2: But God is no respecter of persons.
Pastor Vitale: So what is the answer?
Comment 2: I do not know at this point but I....
Pastor Vitale: Can I give you a suggestion? This is my suggestion to you. Everything that God has promised to do for all those who love him, that he has not yet done.... I do not know about you but I am not raised from the dead yet. Everyday I get a day older and I know that my body is still subject to illness. I have not been raise from the dead.
I am a human being that has a relationship with the Lord, but everything that He has promised to do in the future, every promise in the Bible has not been fulfilled yet. To give us a sign of the promise, He will give it to men, here or there, in the form of a gift. John Lake had a gift, but the day is coming in the near future that what was a gift for John Lake would be a reality for all men that are in Christ.
I would just like to point out one thing, if I may, show you my opinion on one thing, if I may. What I hear you saying (and what I hear you saying I have heard from a lot of people for many years), if you really analyze it, lays the burden on man. That teaching lays the burden on man.
You are not healed because you did not have enough faith or you are not healed because of sin. It puts the burden on the man and I am here tonight to declare to you that our God, the Lord Jesus Christ, is not a respecter of persons. He is Almighty God and is all powerful and He has the authority to overcome any problem in the heart of man. He can raise them and heal them and do anything that he wants for them.
I have heard many testimonies of people healed of all kinds of diseases while they are in all kinds of sin because God had a purpose for it. Why? Because in that hour that it was happening (I do not know if it is happening so much today, usually these people were called to the ministry, although not always), he had a purpose for them.
They were signs and wonders in that time, of what the Lord fully intends to do for everybody at sometime, hopefully in the very near future. He is not a respecter of persons, but He is never late. I remind you that He left Lazarus in the grave for days and four nights. He is never late.
This message about our God, the Lord Jesus Christ, that is being preached today hurts me, because I know that he is not what they are saying about him. They are saying that He has left us to our own devices, that because one person might be weak and unable to drag themself into the pool when the angel is stirring the water that there is no healing for you. I do not believe it, I do not believe it.
I believe that He is God Almightily. He is great in mercy and compassion and love but His mind is so much greater than our mind, that we can not comprehend it. I believe what has happened is some very well meaning men in the Church, because they could not understand this great mind of God, in some areas, have filled in the blanks with their carnal mind and the result of it is that they are not preaching the truth about our God.
I refer you to the Book of Job. Job's friends came to him and preached.... what did they preach to him? What is the word? Condemnation. If you are lying in that gutter and you cannot get up, it is your fault that you do not have the strength. You do not have any faith.
I want to tell you that there are people in this earth that are overcome. They are weak, for many reasons, but they are weak. They are born weak, they had a rough life, whatever happened, but they are weak. They are on their face and they cannot stand up. When someone who moves in the spirit of Job's friends says to them, You are there brother because it is your fault, no faith, sin in your life, to me that is Job's friend, and I prefer that young man that came in at the end and spoke the truth to Job.
Study that Book. He spoke the truth about God. He said that God is awesome, He made this creation, He formed us, He loves us, and he fully intends to fulfill every promise He has made to us. However, one day for God is a thousand years to us and the children of men do not understand His ways or His working. Job repented and he said, I heard of you but I have not seen you face to face and I do not understand your ways.
When he repented of his pride (condemnation is a part of pride) God healed him and restored everything that he lost twofold. I am here tonight to declare to you that we are about to see this ministry fall upon the Church, where God is going to reveal Himself in a measure that we have never seen Him before.
We are going to have to fall down on our faces and say, I have heard of you but I never really knew you. I am sorry that I condemned the weak instead of strengthening them and raising them up. When I try to strengthen them and I fail, instead of saying, I guess the anointing that I have is not strong enough, I condemn the one that is on the floor. It is going on today.
I want to ask you to please believe me when I tell you I am not condemning the Church and I am not condemning any minster or believer who preaches this. I am here to tell you that God is greater than that. I am not against anybody. I am here with a message that is being preached across the world, not so much in this area. I am telling you that God is greater than to say to that man, because you are crippled and you can not get into the pool, you are just going to have to lay there and die. He is God.
Comment 2: What did Jesus mean, when he said, Do you really want to be made well? He asked the man that. What did he mean by that?
Pastor Vitale: What did he mean by that? In that situation, the Scripture says an angel came and troubled the water and the first one in the pool was healed. Jesus did not come and trouble the water. I want to remind you, I am sure that you can say amen to this, there are evil angels as well good angels and the Scriptures does not say whether it was a evil angel or an angel of God that troubled the water.
I want to tell you with all the strength that I can that God did not put that kind of torment on men, that He goes into a place and troubles the water and says that all you cripples get up and run and only the first one in is going to get healed. An evil angel does that; my God does not do that.
Jesus came to the one man in that pool whose heart was broken because he knew he was without hope of getting into that pool, of getting that healing, and Jesus said to the one without hope if you really want to be healed I will give it to you.
Comment 2: You are saying that the evil angel troubled the water but the Scripture says that the first person in will be healed, and healing is an act of God.
Pastor Vitale: Oh, brother you must surely know that the devil heals. You must know that. There is witchcraft healing going on all over this area. I was into it before I was saved.
Comment 2: Well....
Pastor Vitale: Witchcraft healing, Santeria, Bruaria, and Voodoo. Do you that in Africa where they have voodoo, they have people that are so spiritually developed in Satan that they chant their curses and they put their hands right through your flesh and pull the tumors out. They have witch doctors in Africa.
Comment 2: They have shown that to be false on TV.
Pastor Vitale: I know that they have witchcraft healing.
Comment 2: Do not get me wrong, I belief in witchcraft, I believe in satanic powers and what have you, but, Jesus was talking about supernatural healing and in fact he did heal that man.
Pastor Vitale: Did you misunderstand what I said?
Comment 2: Maybe I did.
Pastor Vitale: Let me say it again. There were two acts of healing. The Scripture says there was an angel troubling the water, who was saying that the first one in would get healed, and there was a man there who was heart broken, because he knew that he was crippled. He would never ever be eligible for that healing because he was crippled. Jesus went to this man and said if you really want to be healed, I will do it for you.
Jesus did it for him, not the demonic healing. Jesus comes to the spiritual cripple. Jesus comes to the cripple that is lying on the floor, who has no hope of standing up on his own, who has been condemned frequently by his brothers because he does not stand up and get his act together. Jesus comes and gives him a miracle of healing.
You do not have to agree, but did you understand what I said, that there were two acts of healing at the pool? You do not have to agree with me, but did you understand what I said? That it was not Jesus who troubled the water, it was an angel?
Comment 2: Inaudible
Pastor Vitale: But I thought God was no respecter of persons.
Comment 2: I do not see it in the Scriptures. You ask me if I agree. No I do not, because I do not see it in the Scriptures where it says that it was a demonic angel.
Pastor Vitale: It does not say what kind of angel.
John 5:2-9
2. Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3. In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
4. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5. And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
6. When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
7. The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
8. Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. KJV
Comment 2: I believe it says that it was an angel of the Lord that would come and stir the waters and whoever would step in first would be healed. I think the implication of the question that Jesus asked the cripple man, Do you really want to be healed? is that possibly Jesus is saying, that some people glory in their sickness and their illnesses, for various reasons. They get attention, they get sympathy, they get this, they get that. Jesus was saying, Do you really want be rid of this thing, because if you do....
Pastor Vitale: What do think about Paul? Do you think Paul really wanted to come to Jesus?
Comment 2: I do not understand your question.
Pastor Vitale: There was no physical healing there. My point is this. This is what I hear in the Church and I believe it to be condemnation of the individual. If you have not been healed all these years it because you did not want it. What I am trying to suggest to you now....
Comment 2: I agree with you on that, that there is some of that....
Pastor Vitale: Yes.
Comment 2: ....that there is some condemnation. They say you are not healed because it was lack of faith, because there was sin in your life. I agree with you on that.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, yes.
Comment 2: There is some of that, but I do not think that is the case in every instance. I think in most cases where there is no healing, it is because there is some short circuit, so to speak. The wires are there, and the bulb is at the other end, but some where there is a break.
Pastor Vitale: I understand what you are saying and...
Comment 2: I think....
Pastor Vitale: ....all I can say is, I believe that the hour is coming and I hope it is coming real soon, that we are going to see an outpouring of the power of God, that people are going to be healed without any of this stuff. They are not going to say that there is a short wire, or there is this or there is that, or that the reason people are not getting healed today....
Comment 2: Like I said, I think that it is many times the case; many times it is short circuit, whether it be lack of faith or sin in their life, not always, but...
Pastor Vitale: I feel that we are getting off the point. My point is that Jesus is not a respecter of persons, and that the reason that we see so many people today that are not healed and who die, is that the outpouring of the Spirit that is available in the Church today is not without measure. It is limited.
What I see in the Church today frequently is.... To be honest with you I am not talking about the people whose hearts may not be right. I have known people, who have done everything they could to serve God and I have seen them die and I cannot condemn these people. My answer is that if I pray for you and you have done everything that you should and you die anyway, that Jesus is in control.
All I can do is pray for you. If He heals you, He heals you and if does not, he does not. What I hear people say too frequently is that if they are not healed, they had to be in some kind of sin, which is (listen carefully) a manifestation of pride. It is a manifestation of pride that is saying, I prayed for you, so if you were not healed, either I did not have enough power, or you were in sin.
I believe that the Book of Job is being applied to the whole Church world today, and that we are going to see a mighty outpouring of His spirit very soon that is going to set things right. He loves his Church, and He loves his people and He is not condemning them.
He is not condemning us. He is going to bring us through and He is going to raise us up. He is going to strengthen the ankles of the weak and those who cannot come are going to find the strength to come and those who cannot stand are going to find the strength to stand.
Comment 3: I never heard you say anything about that. This never came out before. I never heard that about the pool before. I just thought, what if it says angel of the Lord, but it does not. I mean this is really something to me. I read this and I always thought that too. You mean that was the way they got healed back then until Jesus came along?
Pastor Vitale: It was a place of occult healing.
Comment 3: I just thought it was a place, where people.... In John 5:4, it says For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, it does not say, what kind of angel.
Pastor Vitale: Israel was filled with witchcraft in those days.
Comment 3: It could have been witchcraft....
Pastor Vitale: It was witchcraft healing.
Comment 3: For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. This is saying whoever ever jumped in first got it, which does not sound like God, really. Jesus had compassion on the one that is down and out over there in the corner that cannot make it.
Pastor Vitale: He has compassion on everybody, but His heart is directed towards the one who really cannot make it, really cannot get in the pool.
Comment 2: Excuse me, can I say something.
Comment 3: Just a second. He said to him wilt thou be made whole? It sounds to me like he is saying, Would you like to be heal?
Pastor Vitale: What is written between the lines here is that Jesus came to him and said, Here you are sitting here all these years and you never looked up to me, so I just came down and showed myself to you and said come here, I will do it for you.
Comment 3: Yes, I think that is what it was....
Comment 1: I do not know, but just going back a little further, when you were talking about healing....
Pastor Vitale: Excuse me, just a second. Are you finished? You can talk a little more if you have some thing else to say (inaudible)
Comment 3: I was just saying that this is witnessing to me.
Pastor Vitale: Praise God
Comment 3: I am glad it came out. I think it was God that it came out. I would like to know more about it. I always thought that it was the angel of the Lord but it does not say the angel of the Lord.
Pastor Vitale: No, it does not.
Comment 3: It also says, Wilt that be made whole?, like would you like to be made whole?
Pastor Vitale: Yes, come out of this hell hole and I will take you to the right place.
Comment 1: Praise the Lord. I just want to go back a little further, if I may, to when you were talking about people getting healings but not of the Lord, but from the Santeria and all that stuff. I want to give a little testimony that I thought I should share. I actually went to a place where they worship the Santerias and a week later I got stabbed and almost killed. They like opened me up. I was thinking that they were saving my life because I was bound to drugs, and bound to things harassing me in my mind, and I am thinking these people are helping me. They opened the door and almost tried to slay me. When I got stabbed, after he stabbed me in the back, I turned around and the knife cut my neck and my face and yet I have not scar. I took two steps and my knees totally locked and the Holy Spirit grabbed me and pulled me across the street and got me away from that guy with the knife. I knew right then and there that those people.... These are people that believed in the Lord, had a bible there, and allegedly doing works to set me free from bondage.
Pastor Vitale: In the name of Jesus. They do it in the name of Jesus.
Comment 1: I felt like I was a living sacrifice for them. I felt that they tried to sacrifice me to their saints or to whoever they were worshipping. It is of the devil, I am sure. In the Old Testament it says that people who practice such spiritual things and astrology shall be put to death, killed.
Pastor Vitale: Amen. There was witchcraft in Israel and I suggest to you this was a witchcraft healing. I would like to make one more statement and put this way. I do not want any feeling of hostilities or misunderstanding here. I am not against anybody. I am just trying to bring some light.
What I am suggesting is that the Church, by and large, is in denial of the reality that many of the promises that we read about are not functioning in our lives, and the fact that these promises are not functioning in our lives does not mean we are not doing something that we are suppose to be doing.
I want to suggest to you that the reason they are not functioning in our lives is that God has a program. Back 2000 years ago, He manifested His son, and the program is moving forward, and we have not yet arrived at the place, where the fullness of these promises are being manifested in our lives. It is not anybody's fault.
I saw a woman that was crying out to God for ten years die from cancer. This woman did everything she could do and she died. In this hour, Jesus is not healing everybody and it does not mean that person had a short circuit or something was wrong. It is that we do not fully understand what He is doing, in this hour. That is my suggestion.
We do not fully understand, but His program is moving forward, and I hope that really soon, we are going to see an outpouring of healing power like we have never seen before, like the world has never seen before. However, this denial in the Church that says, We have divine heath, when we are capable of getting sick cannot glorify God, because it blocks the Spirit, it blocks the move of the Spirit. We have to confess our condition and when we confess our condition, we say, Jesus we need help.
I am coming against this denial in the Church. I am not coming against any person or any human being, but, there are walls of denial and people are being hurt. I wound up in the hospital two years ago. Before then, I had received all kinds of divine healing over a period of ten years. I think I was healed of everything that you could imagine, and I guess I was moving in a spirit of pride, saying, I would never go to a doctor. God healed me of this and God healed me of that.
I was in a Church with all kinds of healing and everybody was getting healed. My pastor was healed of a major heart attack that should have killed him. He never went to a doctor, and after he got his healing, they said he had a brand new heart. There was no sign of a heart attack at all.
The Spirit was moving across the whole congregation, the Spirit of divine healing, not divine health. The after about ten years, people starting get sick and not getting healed. We were devastated. We thought that we must be doing something wrong. God must be cursing us. What is happening?
I have a history of being sick. I became ill when I was 11 years old. I was dying when I came to the Lord, and when I saw that these healings were falling off in the Church, I started to get very upset.
I went before the Lord and I said, Look Lord, if you want me to go in the hospital, I will go, but, you have got to speak to me really clearly, because as far as I am concerned, if you are not going to heal me, I am willing to die. I am willing to die, if you find such fault in me that you are not willing to heal me. So I am putting a fleece out before you, if you want me to go into hospital, you have got to give me several witnesses and make it really clear to me, or I am not going to go and will just die.
Five years after that (which came to about two years ago), I became every ill and I hung on for a long time. I was sicker and sicker and sicker and it reached the point that I could not work. I would not go to the doctor. I was home for about two months, lying on that couch. I could barely move. My whole body was swollen from my shoulders, down. I do not know, maybe my face was swollen too.
My whole body, all the way down to the tip of my toes, was swollen. One sister that was praying for me, called, and she said, The Lord told me you have to go to the hospital for this one. I said, I rebuke you, you devil. He healed me of everything for 12 or 13 years. I am not going to any hospital.
I said, Lord, you have to give me more than that witness. He sent someone else to me, and He sent someone else to me, and I was not getting any better. A woman in the congregation who was a nurse, said to me, I have never seen anyone go this far without seeing a doctor. She knew that I was dying. I was dying.
Finally, the Lord gave me several dreams and sent several prophets to me, and I knew he was telling me to go to the doctor. I gave in, and my heart was broken. I said, What did I do Lord that after all of these divine healings, now, at this stage, you are sending me to a doctor?
I went to the doctor and he told if I did not go into the hospital I would dead within two weeks, so I went to the hospital. I was there for 3 months and 5 days. I was devastated, and could not understand why God did not heal me. After the whole thing was over, he raised me, for all intents and purposes, he raised me from the dead.
He explained it to me, that He does not always heal the same way, and that He has given me a season where I had experienced divine healing and now He has things for me to learn by submitting to the doctors and all of their procedures, which really broke my heart. Then, after I was healed, he brought me in contact with a woman who I had not seen in years, who had gone through the same thing.
She had a cancer on her back, and was so brokenhearted that God had not healed her. She was walking around with this cancer for ten years, until, her husband gave an ultimatum. He forced her into the doctor's office and she had surgery. She was under such condemnation.
The answer is God heals divinely when He wants to. He heals through a doctor when He wants to. God is sovereign, and He just does whatever He wants. We must make the adjustment, we must make the adjustments.
He wants the word out that He does not want His people condemned anymore. If He is not healing them now, if they are like Lazarus, if He is waiting 4 days to get to them, He does not want them condemned. He wants them strengthen. He wants them to have hope, and this is the message that I am preaching. I preach the love of God.
Pastor Vitale: Pardon me? Have you heard this preached before? No, you have not? Praise God.
Comment 1: I have read the Scriptures but not seen it like that.
Pastor Vitale: Not like this. Thank you Jesus.
Comment 1: I know me personally, I have taken a serve beating, and the Lord bought me here on a couple of different occasions, and.... Is it alright for me to share this?
Pastor Vitale: Yes, sure.
Comment 1: He has brought me here on a couple of occasions, and I thought that I knew the Lord. I read the Word, and I really felt in my heart that I want to l know Jesus, I want to love the Lord, I want to do right, but I kept falling. I kept falling, kept falling. Why am I falling? Because I was not being obedient to what God wanted me to do, He wants obedience.
God has brought me here four times, I believe. I said that I am never going there again. I am never going there again. I fall, get up and the first place I come is here. I leave again, saying I am not going back there again, and I fall again. He picked me up, these last four days. I just came back, Friday, I came back home, I should say. Home is where the Lord is, praise God.
I said, Lord, Can you just show me, can you just give me a sign, that this is where you want me to be. Everyday, he has shown me. All the people were praying for me that the Lord should bring me to where He wanted me to be, not where anybody else wanted me to be. They said anywhere the Lord wants you to be, let Him just guide to the place. I am here again, brother.
This is not milk, it is meat, but it is real and I feel it in my spirit. The Lord has shown me everyday. He has blessed me since I have been back this time. I gave in, because I was fighting, I was rebelling. He straightened me out. He straightened me out. I just thank Him for it. I just thank Him.
He is a merciful God, He so beautiful. I just thank you, Father. He got me where He wants me, and He showed me, not just once, everyday, He showed me. Things were happening that could only be God's will. God has opened all the doors for me again. If you just receive Him, He would open the doors, just receive Him.
Pastor Vitale: It is the new age of Christ. It is the thing to come. As everybody gets trained up, He is going to bring in more people and you each are going to have your own disciples to work with. You could talk to me, if you have questions or if you need instructions, if you need counsel, but you all are being trained.
07/05/09 am
10/07/09 mml-FinalEdit
