The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.
PASTOR VITALE: Would I say something that I do not believe just for the sake of the (word inaudible), is that what Christ wants us to do xxxx?
COMMENT: Well I do not know, well, she seemed to have a legitimate thing of...
PASTOR VITALE: When someone is screaming and when someone is in that spirit, you do not discuss problems when someone is in that spirit. When someone is in that spirit, the person that is in a right spirit is not supposed to cater to the person that is in the wrong spirit. The person that is in the wrong spirit has to get in the right spirit, and then you talk it out. Otherwise, we will have all kinds of bullies coming to us, and we will have to be saying we are sorry and making all kinds of concessions just because they are yelling.
Does that sound right to you to make all kinds of concessions?
COMMENT: Well it was, my spirit was hurt when she was...
PASTOR VITALE: Let us analyze what you were feeling. Your spirit was hurting, you were distressed by the conflict.
COMMENT: By the outburst.
PASTOR VITALE: By the outburst. Now you have to ask yourself a question xxxx. Was your response to the outburst the righteousness of Christ, or was it a response that you just did not want to feel bad anymore, and you wanted anybody to do anything that was necessary to stop this thing that was making you feel bad? The question that I asked you was, I pointed out to you that your soul was distressed, and I am asking you if you think that you manifested, your attitude is manifesting the righteousness of Christ, or it is manifesting a soulish reaction that just wanted the discomfort to stop? You really have to know the answer to that question.
COMMENT: Well, I became distressed not to make a peaceful situation out of it, just I felt you know, it should not have actually been brought up here, and maybe it should have been something between you and her.
PASTOR VITALE: Now what was your solution to the problem? Tell me if I am wrong. I think I heard you say that you made a judgment that she was out of order, all the yelling and etc., that you made that judgment. Now what was your solution to the problem?
COMMENT: You mean as far as what I would say to her?
PASTOR VITALE: Well, what you did say, what was your solution to the problem? We had a problem here in the meeting tonight, and what was your solution to the problem?
COMMENT: I wanted to say, you know, but I did not have the right words. I wanted to say something to her as far as, you know we are all fighting the same enemy, and I did not. I could not come out with those words because there was just no timing, she just kept going and going and flew out of here, because I could see that she was not going to stop.
PASTOR VITALE: You did something, you did make an attempt to resolve the problem, what was it that you did? You did say something.
COMMENT: Did I?
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, you said it twice.
COMMENT: I do not remember what it was.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, and your solution to the problem was that the person being attacked, me, to come to...
COMMENT: Oh, should apologize. I said, why do you not...
PASTOR VITALE: Your solution to the problem is that the one being attacked should apologize?
COMMENT: Oh, I see.
PASTOR VITALE: Do you hear what I am saying?
COMMENT: Yes, I see that.
PASTOR VITALE: That is not Christ, Christ does not do that.
COMMENT: I was angry at her, I was angry at her and I just wanted to...
PASTOR VITALE: You just wanted it to stop.
COMMENT: Yes, but I did not want to interfere.
PASTOR VITALE: You did interfere.
COMMENT: I did?
PASTOR VITALE: You told me that I was the one that should have apologized.
COMMENT: That is right.
PASTOR VITALE: You really have to pray about that, because that is not Christ.
COMMENT: Even if, I mean, from the portion that I heard of what she was saying that you opened her mail, even that was wrong?
PASTOR VITALE: Well, we are not really talking about that now. I do not think that was wrong, but we are not talking about the problem. What we are talking about now is that there was an outburst here, and that I was attacked. She attacked me. Whether or not I did something that justifiably angered her or not, that kind of an outburst is never acceptable. There was an outburst here, and the only thing that I heard come out of your mouth was that I should not have done that. It was said to me....when I hear something like that, it says to me, "Well you were the....you did it, all you have to do is say you are sorry and it is okay." You called the innocent guilty, and the guilty innocent. You made me the guilty party. Do you hear what I am saying? Now that was judging before the time. You see, if you had judged out of Christ, it would have been righteous judgment, but you judged out of your fallen adamic soul and where it came from....I know where it came from. It came from the fact that you just wanted peace, and you knew on some level that she was not going to stop, and that I am the reasonable person, so you were saying to me, "Pastor Vitale, tell her whatever she wants to hear, just shut her up," in so many words.
COMMENT: Like a baby in a tantrum.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, in so many words that is what you were saying, and in Christ we cannot do that. It was....in general, when we are dealing with the natural man, the more concessions you make, the more they try to (word inaudible), so we cannot do that.
COMMENT: In the case of like that, then I have done that continually.
PASTOR VITALE: I think you have been, you are probably right. Your family has been doing it. I know (word inaudible) a lot, and I am wondering, and I do not know for sure. I am asking you, do you think over the years possibly you have done that to yourself? You have been right, and you have just apologized, just told the Lord, "Just let them stop yelling Lord," and maybe, I am asking you the question, I do not know, have you ever done that to your children?
Have you ever said to them, "Just forget about it, just do anything." See, that is not the righteousness of Christ, that is not. It is pleasing man. Well, there are many aspects to it. It is pleasing man, it is really a form of spiritual adultery because it is doing anything, it is denying righteousness just for peace. It is denying righteousness to make peace, but it is also....what is important to us here tonight is that it is a sign of spiritual weakness which is a female trait, and we are supposed to be ascending into spiritual manhood, and spiritual manhood deals in righteousness. Now, that does not mean that the thing to do is scream back at somebody like that. You do not scream back at them.
You know this is a situation where the Scripture applies, "Resist not evil." You do not fight with that. I tried to reason with her, there was no reasoning with her, so you try to reach the person. If you cannot, you just stop and withdraw from the conflict, but to make that peace at any price, that is being spiritually female and acknowledging that the person that....it was rebellion, it was pride, but it was also manipulation.
You see, to me it was not manipulation because there was nothing in me that was respondent to any form of manipulation, but a spirit of victim of manipulation came up in you, that you were being manipulated by the rage, and I really wonder if you have not been living with this, and you responded to her like you have been responding all your life, that the important point for you is that you were manipulated by the anger, and you were so upset by the anger that, probably, if someone was screaming at you, you would have apologized for anything just to stop them from yelling.
COMMENT: In other words, I did not want to face the confrontation.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, you were manipulated.
COMMENT: Fear of confrontation?
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, that anger controlled you.
COMMENT: That is right because I could feel it inside me. I could feel her anger getting worse and worse, and I felt, in myself I felt like taking her and shaking her, and saying, "Stop already, grow up." I felt like doing it to her, and yet you know the....I guess because of what she was saying like she felt she was right in that one situation, you know, made me more concerned about the little thing that she was saying.
PASTOR VITALE: Rather than the spirit that was manifesting, that was a very wicked spirit. It is bad enough when a man does it, but when a woman does it, let me tell you that is disaster in a marriage, an absolute disaster in marriage. Okay, but the point for you that God wants you to see how you were manipulated was that spirit, and I am asking you to understand the response of Christ to something like that, is not to strive with it, not to strive with it. First, you try to reason, but if there is no reason, you withdraw from the conflict, but you do not give them right.
The righteous response to that is to not even discuss it until they come into a right relationship. You do not fight with someone that is accusing you or attacking you, that is a warfare and that is a spiritual warfare of ungodly power that is attacking.
You do not say you are sorry to that, because if you say you are sorry to that and it goes down, you better believe that the next day, or the next week, or the next month, it is going to rise up twice as strong, twice as strong with a less valid reason, and if you submit to that, a day or a week later it will rise up again, twice as strong with a less valid reason and you will keep spiraling downward until they totally are ruling your life.
It is the same principle as I said on a recent meeting, I know I said it in a recent meeting, the problem that we have in this country with pornography, it used to be illegal. They made it legal, they thought they were being so sophisticated, and it just continued to spiral downward because this is the bottom of the pit. It continued to spiral downward until now we are into kiddy porn where children are being abused so they have got to pass legislation against it. Why did you pass the legislation when it was just where it used to be....why do you have to wait until thousands of kids have been abused before you pass the legislation? It is a sad principle. You cannot ever buy off a spirit like that because that is what you were doing. It was like somebody, it was as if somebody had kidnaped someone, and you were yielding to their ransom.
It is a form of emotional and spiritual blackmail, and you were willing to pay off, pay off, pay the guy, pay the guy, blackmail, spiritual blackmail. "I will pay you, I will pay you, I will pay you, just shut up, I will pay you," and what it does is, for yourself you become a victim. It establishes an ungodly soul tie between you and the person that you entered into this kind of a relationship with, and even though there is not a doubt in my mind that in these circumstances, it is very rare that anybody really understands what they are doing, but it is no excuse, it happens anyway, the ungodly soul tie will intensify, and you will find yourself being victimized more and more frequently, so your victimization increases, and your yielding to this ungodly soul tie strengthens the ungodliness in the other person.
The best thing you could do for another human being that is manifesting an ungodly spirit is to refuse to yield to it. You do not fight with them when there is no reasoning, but you do not yield to it.
COMMENT: See, I come back to it. You know what I mean? Well in a case like her, with what happened, I would come back if it was not my family, but in my family it is different because I am more relaxed, you know. I guess your defenses come down or whatever, you know, but if I was attacked like that, I generally would go back with an attack.
PASTOR VITALE: With the same spirit, well that is not the answer either.
COMMENT: I mean that is what has been in the past.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, I know that because I saw that the day that we had that wonderful conflict with xxxxxx and you got in an argument with him. I see that this is what you were doing, I am going to tell you what God wants to do for you. God wants to give you dominion over your own soul, so that you neither are victimized by such an attack, or such a spirit, nor are you victimized by your own soul where such an attack stimulates something ungodly in you to rise up and enter into a conflict which could be likened to a conflict between two wild cats in the jungle, two souls going at it.
He wants to strengthen you so that you are not victimized by it, from the spirit in the other person which is Satan. He wants to strengthen you so that such an outburst could not stimulate the carnal mind in you to rise up and engage in such wickedness, but he wants you to stand against it in righteousness, and the strength of His life. Sometimes that involves saying something, and sometimes it involves just refusing to respond to that wickedness. That is one of the things He is doing with you right now. That is what He wants to do with you, because anything other than that is a realm of spiritual womanhood, and womanhood, spiritually, is a condition of dependency and weakness, and we are trying to get out of here.
We are locked in a world system and in families where there are many ungodly soul ties and relationships going on, and we are trying to ascend above these things, and God is not going to get us out until....well, let me put that another way. The way he is getting us out is by entering into our own person and giving us the ability to cope with problems first within ourselves, and secondly within our family, and thirdly within our church and within our, if we work, the people that we have relationships with at work. The more we overcome, the stronger we get. The more he sends us to people outside of our immediate circle, and His ultimate goal is to help us to overcome to such a degree that He could send us to anyone, any place, anywhere in the world, and we will be able to deal with unrighteousness in His righteousness. In this world, as it is now, some people are victims all the time, that are beaten all the time by their husband. You hear of someone getting raped over and over again. They are victims.
Some people are aggressive in this world system, but He wants us to stand in the righteousness of Christ, and when we deal with conflict in the righteousness of Christ, no matter what happens there is no sin, Jesus did rebuke the money changers, and He did rebuke the Pharisees, and if a rebuke is necessary and it comes forth in his righteousness, there is no sin imputed to us, but whether we be a victim of someone else's carnal mind or whether we be a victim of our own carnal mind, it is sin. The way that we are getting out of the trouble, the way we are getting out of this spiritual trouble is by overcoming sin. We are locked where we are because we sin, because we agree with the sin that is in our mind. We have to fall out of agreement with it, and there is no way we can do it unless there is another place for us to go, and the Lord Jesus Christ has offered you His mind. There is another choice, you do not have to be a victim, and you do not have to be involved in ungodly behavior.
There is another choice, you can stand for righteousness in Christ. That is what he wants to bring you to, and the first step is that you should be aware of what is happening. We have to be aware. There is no change unless we know what is happening, and there is a way to deal with problems, and there is a way that is not acceptable to deal with problems.
We have to also be able to separate....there were two issues here. There was a problem, and no one should ever make a judgment on a problem unless they hear all the facts. We were not even dealing with the problem, we were dealing with the outburst, we were dealing with the outburst.
Praise the Lord, I hope you learned something because also there is another aspect to this, and the aspect is calling the one that is attacked, of saying that they should compromise. That is the slaying of Christ, that is a manifestation of the crucifixion of Christ. If the person is sitting in righteousness, and they have not yielded to this outburst, and you tell them that (words inaudible), what you have done is you have sided with the outburst. That is what you have done, so you crucified Christ. It is important.
COMMENT: Well, I repent right now in the name of Jesus. If this had not happened, this would not have come up.
PASTOR VITALE: Now God uses everything for good. There are no accidents, you know. We have to start understanding ourselves. We are being trained to be the saviors that are going to rise up on Mount Zion. You know, people that do not understand look at us and they laugh, people look at us and they say, "You have got to be kidding, God is using you?" He is using us. Well, we have to be trained so that he could send us out to save the world. We must take the victory in our own life.
You know, there are heathens out there that have no relationship with Christ at all that know all this, we know all this. They grow up in righteous homes where their father is a father, they see him dealing righteous judgment, they see respect amongst the members of the family, and they do not have to hear something like this, they grow up just knowing it because they have experienced it. We who have had different experiences, we who have come up in dysfunctional families, where people are not respected and people are abused, and people....the way the Scripture puts it, the people are bought and sold everyday.
In a family where anyone, anyone has to say they are sorry because they are afraid of somebody's wrath or this kind of concession is made, these people are being bought and sold everyday. Their flesh, their soul is being bought and sold amongst the powers and principalities that are ruling in these dysfunctional families. It is not a small thing, it is a very important, very serious thing. Family order is a very serious thing, and some people make the mistake of thinking that because, for example, a woman and her husband, for example, because the husband is the head of the family, she has to be weak, but this is not true. This is a lie. Everybody, husband, wife, children, everybody is to be as strong as they could possibly be, and in that strength, yield to the headship that God has established.
No weakness glorifies God, and the example God has given me is the army. There is a whole rank of officers, Sergeants, Lieutenants, Colonels, they are all rough tough soldiers, but when they deal with the officer of the rank above them, they must submit. The army does not do anything to make them weak. They are as rough and tough and strong as they could be, but in that strength they yield to the higher authority.
COMMENT: There was no yielding here to the higher authority?
PASTOR VITALE: No, you yielded to the carnal mind, and the reason you did it was that you wanted peace. You thought it was the thing to do to bring peace, but Jesus is the peacemaker, but Jesus makes peace by making war. Jesus does not concede to wicked spiritual power. First, you have to come into a right spirit, then you talk about the problem, and you pray about it.
COMMENT: Was it also that I made a judgment without hearing the whole?
PASTOR VITALE: Well, that may be part of it because that is the difference between judging before the time and righteous judgment. Well, that is part of it too. I do not know how much it influenced you, I do not know you that well in these circumstances.
COMMENT: Well, when I heard her the initial complaint, you know, I guess my spirit sided with her that she was offended, you know, and generally when you hear somebody say that, it sounds like it is right for her to say it, you know, and but then as this thing went on, I just felt in my spirit, it is so small, why make such a big issue out of this thing? Come on, you know, then I felt this, but then when you came down later on the thing, that I felt I was making a judgment when I said that to you.
PASTOR VITALE: You made a judgment that I was guilty. That is what you did.
COMMENT: I made a judgment and I did not hear the whole, and I know, (word inaudible), you know, to hear an issue and then jump right in and make a judgment too soon.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, you have to be careful about that. That does not glorify God, but you see it is alright to jump in and make a judgment, but you made the judgment on the wrong level. What Christ was to do at that moment was to jump and make a needy judgment that there was a spirit manifesting that was ungodly.
COMMENT: Would I have said anything to correct that situation, I mean would I have interjected?
PASTOR VITALE: You could have, yes, xxxxx did. It did not do any good, but she tried. Yes, that is what I am trying to tell you.
COMMENT: You mean that was the right thing for me to do was to say something?
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, say that you are out of order. Well you do not strive, but you make your statement, you take your stand in Christ, but my point was there were two issues. There was what happened, and then there was a spiritual manifestation, and you cannot deal with what happened until you deal with the spiritual manifestation. You dealt with the wrong thing first. Do you understand what I am saying? You dealt with the wrong thing first. The reason you dealt with the wrong thing first was you just wanted that yelling to stop at any price. Am I wrong?
COMMENT: Well, in my mind at the time I was....I heard what she said and I thought, my mind for a quick reasoning I thought, "Well it is not right to do that," but then, you know, then she went on and on, and I thought to myself, "Well, why is she making a big issue about this thing? Be quiet already." I felt like going all over and saying...
PASTOR VITALE: You had a carnal reaction but the...
COMMENT: That is not a righteous...
PASTOR VITALE: It was not Christ, that is what I am trying to....I mean you did not do anything so terrible, but you had a carnal reaction, and the Lord is calling you to sonship.
COMMENT: I should have said, come on xxxx...
PASTOR VITALE: Your first response should have been to the ungodly spiritual manifestation. That should have been your first response.
COMMENT: Well, what kind of a response can you make to something like that?
PASTOR VITALE: You are out of order. However God gives it to you, xxxxx said you should have respect.
COMMENT: I do not think, I think that is a big weakness in me, a weakness that I cannot come back in a righteous judgment, I cannot suggest something like that, it is I guess it is a reflection that I would be on the carpet.
PASTOR VITALE: Fear.
COMMENT: Yes.
PASTOR VITALE: The point is, listen to what you did. You felt you had a fear where you could not, like you said to me, what could I have said against that spiritual manifestation? You felt you could not do that, but you had no fear of pronouncing me guilty. How come? How come? You have a lot to pray about. You had no fear of pronouncing me guilty, and I am the head of the ministry.
COMMENT: You know why? Because you would not attack me. You would not attack me, that is why and I knew that.
PASTOR VITALE: That is the first thing that I said to you, that is your relationship with him, he yells all the time, and you sacrifice your own self because you are afraid he is going to attack you, and you played it out on me. Do you hear what I am saying? Yes, I am going too fast for you. The reason you judged me and not the sin was that you had no fear that I would attack you.
What I suggested to you is that you react and respond this way, the same way, now we know you have an ungodly soul tie with your husband, and the Lord wants to deliver you from this ungodly soul tie, and one of the things He is telling you now is that you are a human being, and that you have rights as a Son of God, and you have a right to stand in righteousness, and every time he rages with that same spirit, you have been betraying your own self by saying or doing whatever you have to say or do, so that he should just stop yelling. It was the same kind of situation, and you projected yourself on to me, and you said, "I should have conceded, just so she should stop yelling." Do you know what I am saying?
COMMENT: Yes.
PASTOR VITALE: That is what you do when your relationship....and you put your role on to me, expecting me to do what you do when you scream.
COMMENT: If a husband or some other member of your family does that to you, do you say, "I just do not want to discuss it," or what do you do?
PASTOR VITALE: No, I do not think you should say to your husband, "I do not want to discuss it," but you have a right to say to your husband, (words incomprehensible).
If you do not like something that I have done, we will talk about it and we will pray about it, but this is verbal abuse. That kind of attack is verbal and emotional abuse. It is a high spiritual authority that tries to bring a more gentle person into submission through intimidation and manipulation, and if your husband is doing it to you, it is sin. Now you have a right to tell your husband anything that you feel, as long as it is in a Godly spirit. That spirit is never acceptable to God. What you heard here tonight, no matter how that person has been wronged, that spirit is never acceptable to God, whether it is going against your authority, which is your husband, or whether it is going down to your own children. No matter what they have done, that kind of a spirit is child abuse, emotional child abuse, and verbal abuse.
COMMENT: Now, that could have come down through her parents though, that same emotional problem.
PASTOR VITALE: I am sure she was abused.
COMMENT: She is just replaying it, right?
PASTOR VITALE: We lost the rest of the meeting, it is really a shame, God did a lot of wonderful things, but our equipment failed, sorry.
05/23/03rs
8/17/03ab-2ndEdit
