720 - 1 Part

The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
 The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.



We’re going to have a free-flowing discussion, a spiritual discussion, about a dream that Mary had and an interpretation that Sheila brought forth. And if anybody is on the phone, please feel free to speak whatever your thoughts are. Ustream, I apologize there’s nobody monitoring it, so we’re not going to be able to read your comments, but we’ll just see how this goes. So, Mary, to start this, you said you had a dream about a week ago. Excuse me. You had a dream about a week ago. If you could just, you know, let us know what that is, and then we’ll start there.


It was a very quick dream. In the dream my ex-daughter in-law, Sue, was in the dream, and my brother, Frank, who died several years ago. He is a very large man, a very tender, loving man, and he was retarded. Slow in some areas, very bright in other areas, but in the dream my brother, Frank, who is deceased, was laying on this big waterbed. There was no sheet on the waterbed, it was just a large waterbed. And Sue, who is my ex-daughter in-law, was standing beside him, and she went over and she punctured the waterbed, and all the water flowed out, and I said to her, Sue, why did you do that? And I woke up. That’s the dream.


OK. So, at this point we will, read through the interpretation that Sheila has, and then we’ll go back and we’ll take step-by-step and discuss each issue.


Email sent from Pastor to Brethren

Mary, I have the interpretation of your dream. Do you remember that before you left my office I was trying to explain to you that you are very far behind on your spiritual development? I said I do not want to hurt your feelings, but you are retarded in that area. You are suffering from arrested spiritual development.


This is the interpretation of your dream. Two different sides of you. Your brother represented you in your spiritual condition. I am sorry. Spiritually slow, retarded, overweight because you are so behind in dealing with your sin-nature and lying down. I thought the waterbed represented a foundation, but you said Holy Spirit and I think that you are correct. I have told you many times, or tried to tell you anyway, that your whole ego is in who you are in the Holy Ghost. All of your self-esteem is there. And the truth is that Christ is not appearing in you yet, so you fall back to on Pentecost. You have not been doing that so much lately, but I didn’t give you the dream. The Lord did. And the dream seems to be witnessed to what I have been telling you for years, that your ego is in the Holy Ghost. Sue represents either me or Susan. I am the one who is continuously puncturing your self-esteem that is founded on the Holy Ghost, but perhaps Susan said or did something that hurt you. Apparently your dream is saying that I, at the time of the dream, maybe it happened already, I was going to give you one final job to your Holy Ghost. Jab. I was going to give one final jab to your Holy Ghost self-esteem in the hope of moving you on to the Christ-life that would completely deflate the waterbed ego. It was probably something that I said, or will say because it made you angry. I think you said in the dream, you said either, what are you doing? Or, don’t do that. This is a very positive dream. It means that you’re making progress. I am so happy for you.


In the dream I said to -- what my sister in-law -- my daughter in-law represented, why are you doing that? Why would you do that? I said why would you do that? That’s what I said to her.


Before we start I just want to pray because I know we’re going to have a discussion.



Thank you. Thank you, Father. Lord, please, Father, be here with us and let us speak Your words, and let the Spirit flow through this conversation. Have none of our carnal thoughts come through, and our own opinions. We only want the opinion of God. And I pray that You anoint the words, and You anoint the people listening to receive them, and to receive them with no contention. And be able to come to You humbly and lay Your head down, and confess sin and repent, and grow from this meeting. Amen.



 So in the dream, we’re talking about two different sides of a person. Where you have the Christ-side and the carnal nature, and how they’re constantly at battle. And how we have to yield to the Chris- mind. And how difficult it is because you don’t even realize sometimes how they’re so intermeshed that -- which one rises to the surface. And to determine what state you’re in, is basically the interpretation of this dream, is to what state you’re in and to realize where you are. Because if once you realize where you are then you can move forward to either, you know, left or right, or up or down. You have to know where you are at a point. So do you have anything to say that pertains to a dream you had, anything to say about this?


Well I believe, definitely, it could be about -- He gave the dream to me, therefore the dream, I believe, has to do with what He’s doing with me. If He’s correcting me, or showing me something, I want to know about it.


It doesn’t always mean that.


Yes. So I know when Sheila’s taught how with this ministry there’s so many dreams, and how the people would pertain to people in the dreams could be anybody in this ministry.


Or outside the ministry.


Yes, within the ministry or outside the ministry. That the representation of the person is not necessarily the person, but -- and even the person receiving the dream, you know, if you can gleam [sic] something that helps you spiritually grow, but, you know. That’s definitely why we have to bring the dreams to Pastor because there’s more information she has than we have about ministry and life outside -- that it could pertain to other matters. So -- but this one we see that it is about your spiritual growth. June, do you have anything to say?


I asked previously, you were feeling -- you were lying to your problems, you know, and you couldn’t focus in on your powers. But -- and you tried and very hard every time you went home, and prayed over it and prayed over it. But this dream was something that was specifically for you, to be able to see what was going on in your life. And so you were totally blind, and you were really trying your hardest that you could do, but you couldn’t see it. You just couldn’t see it. And so when you open yourself to interpretation that Sheila gave you, it just -- what happened, it punctured you. In the waterbed, it punctured you. This punctured you. And you could see between the Christ-mind and, I would say, the Pentecost-mind. And this was a perfect example that God gave to you specifically to bring you through the darkness that you are experiencing. And I felt it was excellent, it was an excellent interpretation. Then the two sides of you were Christ and Pentecost. And you were really struggling because you wanted the Pentecost so strongly because you had such success in the past.


            Amen to that.


But now is a new thing.


            Amen, right.


It’s Christ in you, the hope of glory. Christ in you. It’s a whole different means of having His nature formed in you, and being able to have your open mind. Your mind is open now to what you are, and how important you are, and how all your nature, your whole background. God wants it so much, but he wants it directed definitely to Christ, and to let that Pentecost go. And then, just open yourself to what He has for you in a new way. And that’s His nature, and you just cling on to Him, and let Him lead you. You have no direction except what He tells you to do. And if you go to Him and say, look, this is what I’m going to do, but You give me direction. And if it doesn’t work, you know, I know that it’s from You that it’s not the way I should think.  That You will give me instructions on how to move in the Spirit.


Amen. June, that was excellent. Amen. That was excellent.


That was, you know, that sums it up.


            Thank you, Lord.


Sandra, did you have something?


            Oh thank you, Lord.


Yeah. Well in addition to June’s word there, I got -- I kind of got along the same lines is that it’s just back to that, how easily the Spirit of Christ can move through both parties when both parties have the same goals in mind, and that is to grow in Christ. So Sheila was able to give out this interpretation that was only to the degree that Mary was willing to receive it.




And that her willingness to receive it helps that flow of the Spirit and the truth. And I think the significance in that is that I don’t think this is just for Mary, necessarily.




I definitely believe it’s for Mary, but it’s for everywhere that Pentecostal spirit is existing on the earth. Because we know that when this message is preached that it goes out to places we don’t even know about. So for our group to manifest that anointing, to be open amongst each other to that teaching, we’re bringing down a teaching for others to be delivered by in the Pentecostal realm, to be taken down because the Spirit of Christ wants to come through. And so I just really encourage that Mary’s attitude toward this, and I’m just very encouraged this morning. I’ve really enjoyed what you’ve all had to say so far too. And I’m really glad to be a part of this ministry. So that’s pretty much what I got.


Amen. Amen. Thank you very much. That was excellent. We have somebody who would like to speak? Sheila, you may.


I can hear Mary saying, so I argue and get a good explanation about the archetypes. But I didn’t hear her response so I don’t know whether she’s believing that because that’s what was a stumbling stone for us.


Yes. Do you want to share what you felt about the dream, the interpretation I mean?


Well I think the first question is, how is it that I’m holding onto Pentecost? I seem to be able to flow with whatever revelations are coming through. I understand that Pentecost was the last [UNINTELLIGIBLE] from God, that there’s something more in the Spirit of Christ. I don’t know how I’m hindering that, or why I’m holding on to anything. I was never gung ho in Pentecost. I was never into the dancing and singing and all of that, it just never was.


Sue, you have to take control here. Because were trying to help her, so you have to take control again.


Now you, you have already told her why and that -- why, you know. I think when Susan spoke that you already told her, so you need to tell her again because she didn’t hear the answer.


She doesn’t understand why she would want to let go of Pentecost.


I remember in the past when I was very young, when you were in Pentecost there was such a power on you, and you used to have discussions with my mother and just such a passion for the Lord and you wanted to save people. And you wanted to save my family. You wanted to save my mother. And you used to have heated discussions back and forth. And then at this point -- and I grew from that, it was a blessing to me. I was a young girl, and I realized there is more to God than what I was learning in the Catholic Church. And it was a blessing to me even though you weren’t addressing me, and I knew that there was something more, so I grew from that. But now at this point in time, and in your life and in my life, there is the next phase, is here.


And I could be wrong, but I feel that you had such an anointing and a strength through Pentecost that -- and a closeness with God, which it was real. It was real and it was for that time. And now at this time, I don’t know if you’re clinging to that old remembrance of power and authority and closeness, and God wants to give you more but it’s different. It’s a different dispensation. It’s a different -- He’s not flowing in that way. And if you choose to flow that way, you are flowing away from God then towards God.


You know, you are a powerful woman in God; but if you continue to flow, I can see such great mercy on you with the words that are coming down and the Lord still being with you, but if you keep flowing contrary to the growth of God it can’t end well. It just -- in you -- and not to say that, you know, you would -- something horrible would happen to you, it just, people will grow, and you won’t grow with them in this new dispensation, this new wave of God. Of it being internal, about yourself, about your sin nature, and about how to confess and repent, and it all being about you, the individual. How you take correction from people. How you take information from people, and how you pertain -- how it pertains to you.


The question being, how is this about me? Or, how does this affect me, Lord? How can I grow from this instead of always being for the other person? [?Through?]] Pentecost much more, laying hands on the person, healing that person, saving that person, enlightening that person where I feel it’s more internal. And it’s just a whole different move of God as we’re going forward from this point on. You know, I don’t know if I’m making that clear, but.




Please explain ego to her. That’s the key word. She doesn’t -- I don’t believe she understands how her ego is attached to Pentecost, and is detached from Pentecost and attached to Christ. Her ego. Her self-esteem.


            So yes. How about you, would you like to speak?


Well I’ll speak about myself in relation with that. I have -- I had, I should say had. That I had the right to move with pride, definitely with pride, so deep that I couldn’t penetrate it. Couldn’t penetrate it. I don’t know how I penetrated the pride, and it was all within self. It was very much in self. And I had to get out of myself. And Cain is self. Cain is self, and self is sin. So I had to realize that. Just recently I just said wow, you know, I think I do everything, I’m trying to do everything right, and I keep saying- -- I kept saying to Him I want to do the right thing. Every time I did something I said, I want to do the right thing. If this is not the right thing, Lord, then please help me. Please help me. If God pierced this pride because this pride has got me captured, it’s just another hold that Satan has, and he don’t want to let you go. You want the Lord to keep you at Pentecost.


And you don’t understand because you did everything you could in Pentecost, but it’s now changing. You see, there is a change in your life that has to take place. And we all have pride. We have all the seven deadly sins, but the biggest one is the pride that’s holding all those sins in us. And so we have to break that pride, and the only way you can do it is just to keep praying to God -- to, Lord, I want this pride broken. It’s got to go. And it’s in my ego, it’s in everything that I represent. I did a wonderful job in all what I did, for you, Lord. All the stuff that I did. But now I have to change what’s in here, and I have to give it to you, and I have to ask you to help me to change because I can’t do it myself. I cannot do it myself.


When you say you are hopeless to be able to pierce this pride, this thing that’s holding you, this self-esteem, this ego as Sheila said, I didn’t even know, you know, that I had all that stuff. I didn’t even know I had pride. And it’s a slow process because it’s so strong. It’s so powerful. You know, Satan doesn’t want to let you go. He doesn’t want you to learn anything new. He don’t want you to change. He wants you to stay where you were going, and you had all the power at the time, but nothing might be working anymore. When you’re praying, you know, you have to pray a beautiful prayer, but -- and you’re so helpful for everybody, but you’re, like, overly helpful. You’re overly helpful. You’re helping people, you’re enabling people not to take the responsibility to do their job or to do anything because at every situation, I see it in every situation, you’re so willing to help people. And the minute they feel a failure you’re right in there to help. It’s beautiful, but it’s not what you do, it’s what God does, and you have to let it go. You have to let it go. And you could say, well if I could help you I’ll help you. That’s the end of it. That’s the end of it. Not projecting your prayer into them, or projecting your enabling them, so they figure, well I can --  I don’t have to do it.


            And it’s such a subtle line with helping --


This is excellent. OK. Excuse me for interfering, but I didn’t need you to moderate because we’re going off. I’d like to know if Sandra could explain, ego, to Mary. Because actually you’re both hitting all around it, but I don’t think you explained it in a way she could grasp.


Sandra, could you explain ego? Did she hear me?


Yes. Ego, to me, what I believe ego is, it’s like the unfiltered goal without really considering whether it’s a Christ, or whether it’s not, action. Or mind, the part of the mind that just does what it wants, when it wants, how it wants. And that would be the key definition in my [INAUDIBLE] that’s what I’m getting off the top of my head.


Like babies would have -- well, not babies. I don’t know, that’s what I’m getting off the top of my head. There’s no filter. There’s nothing -- it’s just like, whatever’s appeasing to our self, it has to do with our self-preservation. Appealing, gratifying the self, the ego, the mind, the [INAUDIBLE]. It’s just all in submission to what you want, right now.


            With not, like, taking into consideration other factors that might be involved.


I agree about the self-preservation too, and how the ego is tied up with the Holy Spirit. And -- or in Mary’s case, with the self-preservation and the strength of the Holy Spirit, but it’s all tied up with ego. That it’s not the real de- -- is not the truth. It’s all a protection.


Try self-esteem. Try and see [INAUDIBLE] can get self-esteem. We’re still hitting around it.


As Sheila was staying about self-esteem, and, you know, I guess your self-esteem being in the Holy Spirit when your self-esteem really should be in Christ. You know, who you are, Mary filled with the Holy Spirit where it -- the time now should be Mary filled with Christ. And there's so much more for you, and so much more power and so much more coming with Mary filled with Christ than Mary filled with the Holy Spirit. And if your self-esteem does not embrace the new Mary you are not going to be able to receive it, it’ll still be Mary with the Holy Spirit. Do you have anything to say, or comment?


            You know, I think you’re right.


Even further, I think it’s really not about Mary at all, if you really want to get technical, it’s really about taking everything that we’ve learned and using it in the instance that it is arising rather than just -- I think one big part of ego is just, well we get back to that [INAUDIBLE] Spirit too. Where it’s like, we take one Scripture, we take it for letter and that’s just everything because that’s how it is. So not just, like, I’m stomping and screaming because that’s what a baby does when it wants something. It’s very methodical, this ego that we’re talking about, that’s manifesting, it’s very much placing circumstances -- manipulating a circumstance, so that [INAUDIBLE] a certain [INAUDIBLE]. And that’s how you -- then that’s your answer to it, from [INAUDIBLE] is our intellectual mind come with reasoning, coming up with a way to better a circumstance would favor our situation, or what we might feel is happening in a situation. So, for instance, I’ll give a specific example. In a meeting one time, and I’m not bringing this up out of condemnation at all, I’m just -- it was a big teaching for me as well over the years, the same exact thing. And somebody actually just said this to me the other day, when there was a loss of money recently, and forgive me that I don’t have the details right, but it came out that there is a loss of money for you, Mary, and that means that something along the line -- or I believe somebody stole it. And you said something along the lines of, well maybe they needed it more than I did. Or, maybe God thought that they needed it. And it was like, it was that self-preservation. You couldn’t come, at that moment and maybe you’ve come to terms since then, but at that moment it was too uncomfortable to touch the fact that it might be -- that that may have been a sign of a deeper meaning that your heart wasn’t right. Or that it was a reflection, or a judgment, of some sort.


So it might be easier for that mind, that self-preservation, to go in the direction of, well God’s helping somebody here. And in [INAUDIBLE] we find the good in that, and you’re still putting God in there, and it sounds good, it sounds really, you know, proper, and it makes God out to be the good guy. So all these aspects are, sort of, wielded in there, and to justify and to cover up the fact that this whole situation should’ve been judged from the Christ-mind and said, that is not -- the truth is, that is not how God works, usually, you know. I mean, He’s just not into working that way. That somebody else should be robbed, especially someone of God, you know, should be robbed for somebody else’s need, you know.


The exact same thing just happened to me the other day. Where somebody came up to me and there was a loss and she said, “On my part, I messed up on the bill at the resort.” She said to me, “Well maybe they needed it. Maybe they’re going to get home that day, and then they’ll find out they lost their job.” I just screamed because it’s not-- that was a Christian woman that said that to me. It is so uncomfortable with touching that area that it might not be of God, it might have been Satan at work there, for whatever reason. Going back to the ego and the self-preservation, Mary, I think it’s just easier to touch -- to not [CROSSTALK] or you’re going to be burnt. You stay away from that fire. You know, in that -- that ego is keeping you, you know, trying to keep you from that fire, from touching that [?spinning wheel?].


OK, I think that you’re all doing a great job, we should do this more often. But I don’t think that -- you’re all hitting around it, so let me help you. OK, but you’re all doing a fantastic job.


With regard to what Sandra just said, the issue -- I don’t think she got it out as clearly as she could have, although her point was excellent. That -- and I think what she said was that a lot of Christians -- and it’s not just you it’s the whole Pentecostal church, Mary, see. The whole problem is that your mind is still in Pentecost, but the whole Pentecostal church is not moving into Christ. So it’s certainly not just you that anybody’s picking on, or that you’re unusual or anything like that. Your personal problem is that you’re still attached to Pentecost. The whole Pentecostal church has to get this revelation. And you being in this ministry should be ahead of them, but in this area you’re not, you’re still attached to Pentecost.


So the issue here, and the issue with the loss of the money was that you could not even consider that it might’ve been a judgment on you. It was so painful to you to even consider that that could’ve been a judgment on you that you couldn’t deal with it. So you said, “Oh well, she probably needed the money.” And the whole Pentecostal church is in that mindset.


So the question -- I’ll go back and forth between you personally and the whole Pentecostal church. The question that you have to ask yourself, if you can believe what I’m telling you, that having -- being told something like that, that a loss of money could’ve been a possible judgment on you indicates- -- well what’s the outgrowth of that? What’s the extension of that? That you did something wrong. The thought that you did something wrong is so -- that that could’ve resulted in the loss of $300, I think it was $300, it’s not in the same category as you not doing something with a toilet bowl. That you could’ve done something that would engendered a loss of $300 in this emotionally painful manner is just inconceivable for the Pentecostal church.


So the question is, why? The question is, why is it so painful for you, and not for me, and not for June -- not that it’s not painful, but that we’re willing to endure the pain because we see the benefit of -- why are you so, in this area, excuse me, completely divided from the rest of the ministry? You’re on an island by yourself. As far as I know, you’re the only one in the ministry that hasn’t stepped over the line yet in this area of dealing with your sin. And that’s what I mean when I tell you that you’re so far behind. That you’re spiritually retarded. You’re way, way, way, way back. The question is, why?


And here’s the answer to the question. I have not been able to convince you that there’s a new you, see. And that new you is called, Christ. A new man is waiting to take over your vessel, and you won’t let Him do it because your ego, this is what I was getting at with the ego, is attached to Pentecost. And the people in Pentecost don’t see this kind of sin. They’ll know if they stole something. They’ll know if they murdered somebody. They’ll know if God told them to fix the toilet bowl, and they didn’t listen, and that -- no. We’re talking about deep, unconscious motives, see. Something that might be possibly wrong in someone’s heart that could result in a loss of money, see. Pentecost cannot deal with that.


And the reason they can’t deal with that is that they’re not sanctified. So you have to get the definition of sanctification. Sanctification is the separation of your personality from Pentecost because Pentecost is in the old man. The way we put it recently was, Christ -- the imputed Christ is still attached to [UNINTELLIGIBLE], see. So you have an imputed Christ, but you don’t have a new nature yet. And Pentecost is not moving on to the Christ nature because -- just lost my words, hold on. The exposure of this kind of sin is so painful because they don’t perceive their new nature.


Now, what’s really interesting is that years ago, years ago when I first started teaching, and maybe it’s true today. I’m not really up on what’s going on out there. There was a group of hotshot preachers that went on from Sonship, and they started preaching right identification. And they were saying, what’s wrong with the church? The reason we don’t have any power -- everything that’s wrong with the church is because we’re not identified with Christ, you know. And I preached against that doctrine because they were saying that it was an intellectual shift. Intellectual shift. That the church has no power because they don’t believe that they’re Christ. But it’s not an intellectual shift. Christ is a new man, see. So Pentecost has to believe that they are the new man so that they can join with the new man, so that they can disengage from Pentecost. And then [UNINTELLIGIBLE] the Holy Spirit, and join to the new man. And join with him as one of those 10,000 saints that are coming back with clouds to war against the unrighteous one in their own mine, their old man.


And that’s what -- Pentecost has not made that shift, and you have not made that shift. I remember telling June and Ceely, remember the day that God gave me this revelation. I told them, that’s what your problem is. You will not judge the sins of your old man because on some level you believe it’s you. You believe that you’re judging against you, and that you can’t -- and all of Pentecost, they cannot accept this guilt, see. But the truth is that it’s your old man, and that you have esc- -- God wants you to escape and pin you to Christ.


And then you have to destroy what you ca- -- what you left. In the book of Joel, when it talks about the Sons of God heading for Eden, it says there’s a fire behind them. You’re to burn up everything that’s behind you. You take a young man that’s in jail because of drugs and the thievery that goes with it and you send him right back to the old neighborhood, he’s going to be in trouble again. Nine out of ten chances he’s going to be in trouble again. You have to burn that whole life behind him, see.


So Pentecost, they have to disengage from -- you know it’s really interesting because I was editing a transcript last night, and I’m divorced. This is spiritual divorce. The mind has to disengage your identity, who you are as a valuable person is still attached to Pentecost. And I give you this testimony. I will give as many times as the Lord tells me to give it to you because you’ve got to find help somehow.


That when the Lord first called me I wasn’t making any money as a preacher, a minister, a writer, everything that I do here, there was no income for me. And because I was attached to a carnal mindset that said, your ego, your identity, who you are as a human being is attached to how you earn your money. I couldn’t break away from that. And I couldn’t call myself pastor. And I couldn’t call myself a minister. I was who I was based upon how I earned my money, and it was devastating to me. It’s taken me years to get over that because as you all know here, there’s no big impressive ministry here. It’s taken me years to identify with who God says I am. And God says I am what He’s doing through me. That’s who I am, not how I earn my money, see.


So your identity of who you are as a valuable person in God is, that you are an intercessor and you have laid hands on the sick and they’ve recovered. That you are a prayer warrior. No, that’s wh- -- in your est- -- now please don’t argue with me because it’s in your subconscious mind, if it’s not in your conscious mind, it’s in your subconscious mind. That’s who you are in God. Your value as a woman of God is in the gifts of Pentecost. Your value as a human being, in your own estimation, on some level. Who are you? Who are you, Mary?


You know, I’ve given that allegory from Kabballah. Then the Kabballah gives that allegory as someone who dies.  Well when the man dies he goes and angels surround him, and angels start beating him up. And the angels say, “Who are you?” And he says, “My name is Moysha [SP]. I just gave that testimony.” And say, “No.” And then angels beating him, “Who are you?” “I’m Moysha [SP].” And the angels are beating him. And they keep getting beaten until he gets the revelation, he’s not Moysha [SP]. He’s out of his body. He’s Christ.


So I’m the one that’s beating you. You don’t have to -- we don’t have to die for this today. I’m the one that’s puncturing you, that’s hurting you, that’s wounding you, that’s deflating your ego that says Mary is a valuable person in God through Pentecost. That’s what you do well, see. But you see, God’s not caring at this point about what you do well.


He wants you to disengage from what you’re doing well, that makes you feel wonderful is that you’re a good person. You’re a good person. You’re ministering. You know how to preach hell to somebody. You know how to save people. You can preach about Mariolatry. That’s what you do well, and you will not let go of what you do well. But Jesus is saying to you, I want you to let go of what you do well, and I want to attach you to something that you, at the present moment, do very poorly at. But if you will just let me do that, Jesus is saying to you, if you will let me pry your fingers, you’re hanging on to the cliff of Pentecost, you won’t let go because that’s your image of yourself as valuable in God. You will not let go. The Lord’s trying to pry your fingers off. And He’s saying, if you will just let go and let me join you to Christ, in which you are doing very poorly at the moment. Compared to the whole ministry you’re doing very poorly. Of course if you will just let go of Pentecost, I will increase you in Christ. And I will give you an equal, or greater, value in Christ. But I can’t do it until you let go of Pentecost.


Which means that everyone -- and everybody experiences this. Mary, look at what happened to me. I lost my whole career. I went into poverty. For years I couldn’t stand up and see who I was because the ministry was making no money. Nobody was coming in here. It didn’t look like it was a success. My ego was devastated, see. You need to let go of that which gives you value in your own eyes, and let God form you in another way.


Because if you don’t let Him do it, you -- Susan you know that, if you don’t let him do it you won’t partake of the next step. Because, Mary, I’m telling you -- I don’t know maybe you don’t believe me. I don’t know. I’ve been telling you for a long time now. You are not eli- -- at this moment, you’re not eligible for the ascension. And the reason you’re not eligible is that you’re still attached to Pentecost. You have to be attached to Christ because it’s Christ that’s going up, see. It’s not the body that’s going up. It’s not the mind that’s going up. It’s Christ formed in us that’s going up. And your whole identity is in Pentecost.


We might say you’re in California when the plane is leaving from New York. So I’m not trying to alarm you, or hurt you or scare you, I am trying to stir you up to do what you need to do, so that you can come with us. But right now your whole identity is in the wrong place. And the reason you won’t let go, is your pride. June touched on your pride. The reason you won’t let go is your pride. Your pride finds the thought of you losing that value so painful that you can’t let go. And the answer to your probl- -- you, right now, are the poster-child for the whole Pentecostal church.


What’s going to help you to let go is understanding, this understanding that I’m trying to give you right now. That, yes, there’s a period of darkness. When you let go of Pentecost there’s a period where Satan will come in and tell you you’re valueless. What can you do? You can do nothing. There’s a period of that, until Christ matures in you, and then you receive a whole new ministry. The ministry that we’re practicing here. The ministry of discernment. The ministry of interpreting dreams. The ministry of discerning people’s motives.


This is the new move of God. To be able to look at somebody that’s suffering and say look, this is the root of your problem. That’s the new move of God. But He can’t -- you don’t have it, Mary. You have virtually no discernment at all. You cannot get it. He wants to give it to you, but it cannot claim unto you until you let go of this concept, whether it’s conscious or not, it’s there. OK. You have to let go of your value being attached to Pentecost. That your value is that you pray and people got healed, you’ve cast out demons. That you get words of knowledge for people. You must let go of that and face the dark night of the soul for a season, until the new Christ-you is born in you.


And I’ve been fighting for you for years. God’s been fighting for you longer than me. Everybody here has been fighting for you for years, and you’ve been fighting back. So the only weapon I have is this understanding, see.


So I still don’t know, I didn’t hear any affirmation from you that this morning you understand that when you had a dream -- Susan ministered this to you but she didn’t ask for your feedback. OK. So you need to know in the future you need to get feedback, so that you know that they know what they’re talking about.


I still don’t know if you understand that the fact that God gave you a dream does not necessarily mean that the dream was for you. That God gives us dreams for other people frequently, more often than not. And I need to know if you understand that your brother in the dream was not your brother. And that the characters in dreams, more often than not, are atypical. Which means they are a type of somebody else. So that if there’s a Sue in the dream, Sue your daughter in-law, when you analyze the dream the first thing you think of is, who is another Susan? Or who does Susan represent?


So I don’t know if you understand because for all of these years that I’m ministering to you, you have not understood that. And you didn’t understand that Monday when we had our conversation.


So I would say if the Lord were to come -- if there were a teacher here that was analyzing me or critiquing me, if I was -- their teacher was critiquing me, I would say everything -- all the other ministry that came forth, although it was valuable, if the subject, you, or Jane Doe from Pentecost, if they still don’t understand that the fact that they received a dream does not mean that it’s necessarily for them, and that the characters in the dreams just types and do not necessarily have to be that person, if Pentecost doesn’t understand that, all this other teaching went right over their head, see. So do you understand that because you didn’t understand it on Monday?


            Would you reword that question? Because [UNINTELLIGIBLE] in my head.


Yes. The question is, have you learned something since Monday? And there are two things that I would’ve hoped -- I would hope to hear that you learned today, and I will make them clear to you. Two things that I would hope you learned after our discussion Monday. Number one, that when you have a dream it does not necessarily mean that the dream is about you. Because when you sat down in that chair you didn’t understand that, right?


            It could be multiple -- I understood it could be multiple things.


But that it might not have anything to do with you at all? Can you believe that?


            Yes, I could believe that also.


OK. Well that’s good because that’s -- you just said something different when you first sat down in the chair. So I hope that you learned something.


I don’t understand how you just [?sent?] in on words. Like, I couldn’t understand you the other day when -- just something -- an animal outside, a beaver or whatever it was. I couldn’t understand why you were so tormented by that. I don’t understand that. I still don’t understand that.


That’s because you’re not in Christ.


            But why? Why is that something that’s against Christ?


You’re ruining everything. You’re ruining everything.


            I’m trying to understand. That’s the only way I can do it, by asking questions.


You cannot understand -- you cannot do it your way. You want to change your way, and it will never work. It will be God’s way or you will be left behind. And I, with great love, with great love, I’m rebuking you. And I’m going to tell you why. Because we’ve all been pouring our heart out for you, and you come back with the same old story. That you are demanding that God teach you, but -- listen to me, that you are demanding that God teach you in the way that you want to learn. You are demanding that, and you will not yield.


You cannot understand. You do not have the Christ-mind. You will never understand until you get the Christ-mind. And you are demanding understanding without the Christ-mind, and it’s never going to happen. You cannot change times and seasons. It’s -- God’s the architect, He laid down the plan, I didn’t lay down the plan. He laid down the program of education here, and this is His rule. You cannot understand without the mind of Christ, and you do not have it. You do not have the mind of Christ. And we’re all pouring our heart out trying to get you the mind of Christ, and you won’t let go. You will not let go. You are demanding that you understand with your carnal mind, and that’s a high pride to your own destruction.


You are destroying yourself with your pride. Your pride is destroying you. I say that with all love. I just don’t know how to make it any clearer to you. I don’t know how else to help you except to rebuke you. You’re so -- Mary, you’re so stubborn and so prideful   and so arrogant, I don’t know how to help you. If you were a child I’d turn you over my knee.


It’s sort of the same principle that I brought forth not too long ago. And then, June -- June too, you’re not the only one. June -- this is the whole time I’m trying to -- I understand, I get your revelation that there’s several people in the congregation don’t understand something. So I go back to square zero to take you a step at a time to give you the understanding, see. And in the past -- didn’t we, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] you won’t follow me. I’m trying to get an answer out of you. Well, is this a dish or is this a cup?  Because I’ve gone back to square zero trying to lead you up to the understanding. And I can’t get you to answer me and tell me that this is a plate and not a cup.


And the reason that I can’t get you to tell me that it’s a plate and not a cup is that you have refused to follow me. And you’re still -- let’s say there’s 10 steps to understanding this issue, and I came out at the tenth place and there were several people in the congregation that could not understand me at position 10, so I went back to position one to try to go one -- I’m going to go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 to help you. And the first step of the 10 is so simple that your pride won’t follow me there. You see? And your brain is still at step 10 that you don’t understand it.


Now maybe if I went back to step five you would understand it, but that’s not the way the teaching comes forth out of Christ Jesus. The way the teaching comes -- I never even   thought of this before, if you can’t understand it at position 10, then you go back to position one, see. But your pride is so high that it’s too simple for you and you’re still at 10, and there’s no communication at all, right? And then the answer to the whole thing -- the end of the whole thing is that you say to me when I finally get it out of you that this is a plate and not a cup. You say to me, is that all you wanted to know? Yeah, that’s all I wanted to know. Is it a plate or is it a cup? Why are you trying to answer what’s in my cabinet behind the wall that you can’t see? So that’s the way it works.


            Why has that something to do with Christ being built?


Mary, I am not teaching your carnal mind. I will not teach a carnal mind. Listen, the Lord is in control of this. Look at what He’s done for you. He’s given this whole session of the meeting over for you. Look at what He’s done for you. And you will not follow my line of teaching. You -- listen, you want to ask the questions that you want to ask. You want to control the syllabus of the lesson. You want me to explain to you. You want to decided what’s going to be what, and how I’m going to teach you and on what level. And you will not follow me. Because I as the teacher, who am under Christ Jesus, I have not gotten past the point that I need you -- before you can learn anything else that I’m teaching here, you have to understand and believe that every dream that you have is not necessarily about you, or even about someone that you know. And I don’t think -- and then you didn’t believe that two hours ago because you sat right in that chair and you said, “I had the dream, so I know it must’ve had something to do with me.” I heard you say that just two hours ago, or an hour ago, and that’s a lie. So there’s a lie in your mind. That’s the equivalent, OK, of is this a plate or a cup. That issue, OK?


But, I’m lost. You told me it was about me, and now that I’m agreeing with you, I’m wrong.


That -- the issue that we’re stuck at is whether or not this is a plate or a cup. So you just twisted the whole issue. You just couldn’t listen. Listen, you’re feeling sorry for yourself. You’re feeling all frustrated and sorry for yourself. It’s very easy.


            You got that right. I really, really feel frustrated.


And sorry for yourself.


            Sorry, yeah probably. I’d call them dead even.


The problem is that you won’t let me teach you. So this is where I am. I am the teacher, we are at step number one, OK? And this is the issue, this is the lesson, dreams do not necessarily have to be about the dreamer, or about anyone that the dreamer knows. And one or two hours ago you sat right in that chair in this room, saying, I know the dream must be about me because I had it. So I am correcting you at square one. Not 10, not five, not four, but square one. That dreams do not have to be about you, and they do not have to concern you. It just so happens that this dream was about you, but it doesn’t have to be so. So until you can get that, why even go on to the second step?


            I understand that perfectly, what you just said.


Do you understand that you didn’t believe that an hour ago?


I don’t agree with that, but if you say that. The word may have come out that way, but I know because of all the teachings we’ve had, I understood that.


And then you sai- -- then you spoke a lie. You need to know that you spoke a lie.


            That I sai- --


Mary, there’s something inside of you that’s your enemy. We’re not just one person. We’re different parts to us, and we have an enemy inside of us. So there’s a part of your mind that’s your enemy.


            I understand that.


Because then you lied.


I have faith.


You need to understand that you lied. Listen, we have it, it’s recorded. I can play it back for you. But we have people sitting here, we have witnesses. You spoke a lie in front of witnesses. And you need to understand that it just didn’t come out wrong, but a lie in spirit spoke it out of you. A spirit. A lying spirit, that when you walk out this door today, is going to try to put that thought back on you.


So here’s a perfect example. There’s two Marys. Mary the old man and Mary the new man. OK. And the old man doesn’t want to let you go. And you are attached to the old man very, very strongly, and he doesn’t want to let you go. So because I’m cornering you, and I’m really very hard to get away from when I corner you. Granted, it’s very hard to win. The only way you can win with me is by being totally unreasonable in sin because God has given me this ability to narrow everything down and make it so clear that if you can’t understand it, there’s something wrong with you.


You’ve told me repeatedly there’s something wrong with me, and I agree with you. I am not wired like other people, and I accept that. I need help in a lot of areas. I understand that.


Listen to you. Listen to you. Listen to you defending yourself. Listen to you not taking responsibility for what I’m telling you. When you defend -- you cannot both defend yourself and take responsibility for what I’m telling you, and I’m telling you that you lied. And you need to understand that a lie came out of your mouth. And instead of taking responsibility for it, you just defended yourself.


You see, we are at absolute square zero, Mary. And that was what I tried to tell you when you came in on Monday, it turned out to be a teaching session anyway. But I tried to tell you this earlier, there’s no point in having these sessions if you can’t get the number- -- point zero. You’ve got to get point zero. You have to get a foundation and then build on it. So no matter what I say to you, you may believe it at the moment, but then as soon as you walk out the door you forget about it because your foundation is faulty.  And your faulty foundation is that you are attached to your old man who’s not letting you go. So I’m telling you, I’m not your enemy. I’m the enemy of the enemy inside of you. I’m the enemy of your enemy, but I’m not your enemy. Listen, I’m giving up the whole meeting for you.


             And I told you how I appreciate that.


That’s not the thing, I’m telling you I’m not your enemy. This is for you. OK? S0 I’m telling you there is a lying spirit in you that lied right in this room, right in that chair. In front of all these witnesses. Listen to me. Your response is supposed to be, oh my God I have a lying spirit. Jesus help me. Get that thing out of me. But oh, no. that’s not your response. Your response is how good you are or whatever. Whatever. Whatever your -- so there’s nothing I can do for you until you stop defending the liar in you. There’s a lying spirit in you and until you turn against it there’s absolutely nothing I can do for you. Absolutely nothing. Over the years I’ve spent hours and hours and hours talking to you and it goes right over your head because your foundation is faulty. Your foundation is sin. Your foundation is a lying spirit, and you lie - it lies to you continuously. And then you start with me, look at you ready to start with me. Look at your face.


If I tell you -- give you my telephone number and I make a mistake and say 01 or 03 or something like that, you’d tell me I have a lying spirit. I don’t connect it. I don’t connect it.


The only thing I have to say to you.


               I don’t connect it.


The only thing I have to say to you is that’s a wrong response. You heard me once, I’m asking you one more time and I’m going to end this. The godly response is, oh my God, I have a lying spirit. Lord, get it out of me. That’s the only response I will accept. I have nothing more to say to you. And you’re a fool. If you let me end this meeting right now, on this tone, after everybody has poured out their heart for you, you are a fool. And there’s just -- I -- you’re in God’s hands. And the chances of you being left behind are excellent. You’re a fool. You’re a complete fool. I thought you were better than that.


So here we go. Your ego, your self-esteem, is not in laying hands on people and seeing them healed, that’s not your testimony. Your testimony is not that you laid your hands on someone once and they got healed of cancer. That’s not your testimony. Your testimony is that you are a fool. Your testimony is that you have people putting down hours of their life and energy for you, and you won’t work with them. Your testimony is that you’re a fool. Here’s the nail, I just hope it deflates your waterbed. You are a fool, and there’s nothing I can do for you to get you through, more than I’m doing, and it’s not working. So your testimony is fool.


             My testimony is I am a fool. I have received that.


 No, no. Your testimony is that you’re a lying spirit


             My testimony is I have a lying spirit.


And that you want God to change it. Ask Him to change it.


             I want God to change me.


Feel bad. Show some signs of feeling bad.


             It’s painful. It’s painful to be a liar. Isn’t it? It’s painful.


Aren’t you upset that it’s been revealed that you have a lying spirit? That you lie frequently?


Sheila, I’ve been under this so often. I’m upset all the time. I understand that. I’m used to the hot seat. I don’t know what else to do. I can’t do it. I expect the Lord to do something in me, and I’m willing and I surrender.


 No, no, no.


             What can I do?


How about getting upset and crying out. You’re not even upset. How about crying out?


               I’m not a theatrical person. I never was.


How about crying out to God, Mary? How about crying out to Him and telling Him how desperate you are to have Him remove that? You put the whole burden on God. Do you know what your part is?


               Who can we put the burden on? He’s God. He’s in control of this.


Do you know what your part is?


                No, He’s not, you are.


You have to start to recognize when you lie. You don’t want to take your responsibility for your part. You just want -- Mary, I’m a pro. I went through this with Ceely and June for years. You’re talking to a pro. Listen to me, you will not take responsibility for what you do, and you want to jump from A to Z. You don’t want to go through, you want to go from saying OK, so I’m a lying spirit. OK, Lord, you take it. It doesn’t work like that. The way it works is that you have to be willing to endure the pain of seeing the lie operating in you.




So you need to -- if you want that to work for you, by the grace of God, you need to understand that there’s a spirit that lies through you, and that it lied right in this room.

And it lies to you all the time. And I’m not your enemy that spirit is your enemy. And that God is not going to just reach down and rip it out. I don’t set up the program.


God sets out the rules and how it’s going to be done. And the way that it’s done, which you are not complying with, is that you need to look at the sin and say, you’re there and I see you and I hate you. But you don’t want to look at it. You don’t want to look at it. There’s a spirit in you that lies frequently.


Why does it lie? To protect your ego. To protect -- well you have a lying spirit that protects, and it’s there frequently. I’ve know that you have a lying spirit for years. For maybe 15 years. It’s set in place to protect you, and the Lord’s not going to rip it out without you admitting that it’s there. And not just admitting it intellectually, but by actually seeing it and understanding that it’s operating in you. And that’s the program. I didn’t set the program. That’s what’s required for deliverance.


What we’re doing today is just the first part, I’m knocking your walls down so that you can start to see because you’re blind. It’s such a painful thing to see. Not that you intellectually understand that you have a lying spirit, but that you understand that, wow I just lied. Why did I do that, Lord? Why did I do that? Assuming -- giving you the benefit of the doubt that you know that every dream doesn’t have to be about you. When what comes out of your mouth says, I know it had to be about me because it was my dream. Now you need to say, I know that’s not true. Why did I say that? That’s the next step.


You see, June’s up to that now. That’s the next step. I’m trying to get you to take the first step. You see? So admitting that you have a lying spirit, if it [?clings?] to you because I’ve had sessions like this with you where it looks like you took the victory and then you come back a week later and you don’t even remember the session. So if this victory stays with you, and you really believe that you have a lying spirit, well praise the Lord, then you’ve taken the first step.


The next step is to see it in operation. You’ve got to see it in operation. You’ve got to know when you lied. You see because if you can’t do that how in the world will you monitor your unconscious mind? Christ Jesus in me, monitors my unconscious mind all the time. See’s envy every time it raises up. See’s condemnation every time it raises up. Henry Buke [SP] said, “How can you guard your soul, how can you guard your heart from Satan taking over if you won’t see the activity of the sin nature in you that hates you?”


That’s your enemy, that’s not your friend. So you’re defending your enemy. You’re confused, and the message today and the message on Sunday was the Stones of Confusion. You see, we’re all confused. We’re all -- at the root of our personality is, what are these Stones of Confusion. We’re the see- -- or the personality is the seed of Dimona, and she’s all confused. So you’re all confused as to who your friend is. And you’re defending the side of you that’s given over to destruction. God says it’s given over to destruction, and you’re defending it because you’re confused.


So look at how strong you are and I’ve told you this before, you are so strong. If we can just succeed in clarifying your mind and de-confusing you, you will take such a victory over your fallen nature. You’ll probably catch up with everybody. If I could just get you to take the first step. You’re a hatchet. You’re God’s hatchet. You’re very strong.


So you’re telling me if I say to my two grandson’s, I call Jimmy, Sean and Sean, Jimmy that I have a lying spirit in me? That’s what I’m being understood now. Am I understand?


It’s a spirit of confusion, but you’re giving an extreme example. It’s a confusion --


              I didn’t see that as extreme at all. I thought that as --


It’s confusion. That’s really not what we’re talking about.


I don’t condemn myself for that. Am I not cond- -- am I glorifying, for lack of another word, this lying spirit when I make a mistake and I don’t really think it’s a big deal? Am I wrong?


Yes because Christ did not make that mistake. So the question is -- the response to that is, Lord, why did I do that? I do it all the time. The question is, why did I do it?


              What is the benefit of that? Please, I need to know that.


Your carnal mind cannot understand it. God wants you to obey. He wants you to follow the program.


               So I would have to say I curse that lying spirit -- to come out like that.


If it never hurt. You saying, I purge that lying spirit, can never hurt.




It can never hurt.


              So any mistake or anything, to say I curse that lying spirit.


Yes, that’s a good way to start.


              And that’s, alone? I mean, I usually go for --


Go for the whole thing?




Kill it. Kill that lying spirit. You’re dangerous, you know, you just have to identify the right target and you’re off and running. You’re after the wrong target. You got to kill that thing. You’re very strong. You’ll catch up with the group if you just start turning on the enemy in your own mind. It’s not so hard, you just have to let go of Pentecost. You’re very strong, Mary. I have the highest hopes for you taking the nectary, but you’re running out of time, so go get ‘em tiger. OK? OK?




Father in the name of Jesus, I forgive her sins, Lord. I thank you for the victory here today.


And I pray that you guard her, Lord. And I rebuke that other side to her that’s going to try and steal you back. And I just [?hope you pour?] angels in her mind and in her soul, Lord. To prevent that wicked spirit in her from stealing her back. And I pry those 10 fingers off of Pentecost, Lord. And I pray that she should have all the strength that she needs to survive in any between period, Lord. There are only sense of worth over You.




Not the acts of Pentecost. Not the deeds of Pentecost. But a knowledge of you through this doctrine of Christ. We pray that you help her, Lord. Don’t let her lose this victory. In Jesus name, amen.




You OK? You OK?


              Yes, Reverend.


Won’t stop without pain, Mary. This is not without pain.


7/1/14 – Transcribed by VerbalFusion

7/16/14 – 1st Edit SP/CAS







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Pastor Vitale's Bio

Sheila R. Vitale is the founding teacher and pastor of Living Epistles Ministries and Christ-Centered Kabbalah. In that capacity, she expounds upon the Torah (Scripture) and teaches Scripture through a unique Judeo-Christian lens.

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