The Following Message Has Been Transcribed And Edited For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.
COMMENT: My cup runneth over, I would like to know if we could go into some detail about that, what was He saying when he said, My cup runneth over?
PASTOR VITALE: You mean, you've been hearing that in your spirit?
COMMENT: Yeah, My cup runneth over.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, first of all, the spiritual cup, does anybody remember what the spiritual cup is? It's our soul, our soul. The spiritual cup is our soul. And, the liquid that the cup holds is the life, either it's the life of Christ, or it's the life of the Devil. And it was, I think it was David that said - was it David that said, My cup runneth over? That means, the goodness of God is coming forth. That means that Christ is appearing in you. That's what it means. That Christ is appearing in you and He starts, if you remember, He starts as a small seed, and He grows up until he utterly fills you to the point of overflowing, and when He overflows you, that means you have more than enough that you need for yourself, and you start giving it to other people; it means ministry. Ministry. That's a beautiful word, Member of Congregation. Congratulations. The Lord's giving you miracle upon miracle upon miracle.
COMMENT: It means something else though, in the Bible, My cup runneth over is used more than one time, right? Or no?
PASTOR VITALE: I think it's basically the 23rd Psalm.
COMMENT: It doesn't mean anything more than that?
PASTOR VITALE: Not that I know of; it's a good word. Basically it's talking at it's ultimate point, it's talking about ministry. That you're going to be so filled with the goodness of God that you're going to be overflowing for other people to come and partake of the Christ in you. See, either we're a negative force in this world or a positive force in this world. It also means spiritual manhood, because you may recall me teaching that the terms man and woman in Genesis at the beginning of the Bible, it doesn't mean man and woman as we see man and woman today. At the beginning of time male and female were speaking about spiritual principles. Male is positive, he gives. The woman is negative, she receives. Those are the traditional roles as ordained by God from the beginning. We have a lot of role reversal in this country today, but not talking about people as we know it, we're talking about spiritual principles; male gives, positive; woman receives, negative. Woman is lacking something, so she needs what the male has to give. So to be filled up to flowing over means spiritual manhood. It's a nice word. To have enough to give to someone who is lacking. Also, as I prayed for you tonight that means you're going to be the lender and not the borrower. See, that scripture isn't speaking only about money, it's speaking about spiritual strength, it's speaking about wisdom, it's speaking about having enough to help people who are lacking. And that's the promise of the scripture, to be the head and not the tail, to be the lender, the one who gives, and not the one who receives. To be the spiritual male, and not the spiritual female.
COMMENT: I'm just thinking of another cup that Jesus drank in Gethsemane, and I don't remember exactly the verse.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, He said, let this cup pass from me, it wasn't My cup runneth over. He said, If it were possible, let this cup pass from Me. Is that what you were talking about? Answer: Yes. Sheila: And that's another completely different situation. You may recall, we looked up every word in the Greek of that account, and the translation is totally, totally inaccurate. I preached a very strong message on that. I don't believe that someone Who is God in the flesh would be praying for God to take a trial away from Him. I don't believe that. I don't believe a man who was God, who was sinless, who said No man can take My life, I lay it down, I do not believe that a man like that would be so frightened of crucifixion that he would sweat blood. And, I believe that this is a big whole in the traditional church doctrine.
There are very well meaning people out there who call themselves Christians, who are very offended when I say that I don't believe Jesus was born perfect. I believe His Father was perfect, but His mother was a fallen woman, and that He received genetic material from both of them. He received perfection from His Father, and that, we're told in the King James version, that Holy Thing, He's called that Holy Thing, and most people who read the King James think that the human baby, Jesus, was that Holy Thing, but I suggest to you that that Holy Thing was the life of Christ which was within that imperfect human baby. You see, the human form was inherited from His imperfect mother, and His human personality, His carnal mind was inherited from His imperfect mother, and within that casing, in that imperfect casing, was that Holy Thing, Christ Jesus, the Son of the Living God. So, this is a big misunderstanding in the church. I believe that Jesus was not born perfect but perfection was within the imperfect or the not yet perfected man. I believe His soul received life and his body was preserved at the time that that which was perfect within Him brought His soul into submission, brought His sin-filled soul, which He got from His mother, into submission to the perfection which He received from His Father. And He brought that perfection into such a complete submission that He became incapable of sin. And this condition is called Full Stature that occurred to the man Jesus at the time of His baptism. And from the moment that He became perfect, I believe He also became sinless, I believe that He also became fearless, and I believe that He also became totally obedient to the Father. Which means, if that's correct, I don't know that any Pharisee or otherwise, or other person, would disagree with those statements.
Well then, how could He have been so scared that He was sweating blood in the garden? And what kind of a totally obedient man is saying to the Father, If it's possible, let this cup pass from Me? Besides, He knew all things. Now, it's just not consistent, Brethren. I'd much rather, I'd have much less problem saying He was not perfect at the beginning and He was perfected. Rather than saying He was born perfect and He sniveled like a little coward in the garden saying, Please, Lord, I don't want to be crucified. So, we looked up every, I mean, if you listen to what I'm saying it's totally without reason, it makes no sense at all. It's just that most people are robots and they just believe everything that they are taught until they get to be teenagers and they come to a ministry like this and they give the Junior High School teacher a hard time, that's me the Jr. High School teacher. But all the kids in grade school, they just believe everything you teach them. It's a sign of childhood. People just believe everything that you feed them. They eat everything that you feed them. Sometimes they get stomachaches because you feed them bad mushrooms. That's nonsense. If you just stop to think about it it makes no sense whatsoever. That He was so scared, the Son of the Living God, who had the power to raise the dead, and heal every manner of disease, was so scared at the thought of crucifixion that He was sweating blood. Mercy me. That's enough to make you want to get another God, if you just think about it with a mind that works. Brethren, your mind is supposed to function. You're not supposed to swallow this stuff whole, you're supposed to think about it, you're supposed to pray about it. It's even OK if you don't believe it, as long as you don't attack the teacher. There's a way to deal with things that you can't believe. You give it to God, you say, Father I acknowledge that this is the teacher that You've raised up, but I just can't believe this thing. Please help me, one way or the other. And then you put it on the shelf and you forget about it and concentrate on what you believe until the Lord deals with you or makes whatever changes in your life necessary. You don't be afraid, you don't go leaving the ministry, you don't pray witchcraft prayers against the teacher, just hang on, maybe you're too immature to understand it. Maybe you have to get a few more revelations first, maybe you need another year or two under your belt. You'll understand it, you're not going to die if, and even if the teacher made a mistake, you're not going to die if the teacher made a mistake. You're rooted and grounded in Christ. You're saved by the Spirit of Christ. You're saved by your union with Christ.
Think about all the error that was in your mind when you first came to the church. Look at how far you've come. Look at all the false doctrine that was pumped into you from the beginning, and look at how the Lord Jesus Christ has brought you over every hurdle. How He's corrected you on every error that you've believed. I don't know about you, but I was taught a lot of error. I overcame everything. I remember, I was taught in the church, I won't go into the whole big story, but, the way I was taught to pray, one day I woke up and I realized I was really hurting somebody. One day this man came in with his arm in a sling, the next day he came in with a black eye, the next day he came in with a broken foot. I went running to my pastor, I said, something's really wrong here, I think I'm doing that to him. Cause the man owed me money that he wouldn't pay me. I thought, well, I'm about to lose my money. I was praying the way I was taught. And my pastor said to me, it wasn't my pastor, it was another pastor that worked in the church, well, he deserves it. He deserves it. I don't want to be breaking peoples' legs with my prayers. I was taught wrong. It didn't stop me from growing in Christ. When you have a vital relationship with Christ, when you seek Him, when you truly are seeking the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, there is no error in doctrine that can grip you out of His hand. Nothing can rip you out of His hand, except your own sin which you refuse to confess and repent of. That's the only thing that could rip you out of His hand. So, you're supposed to be thinking about everything you're taught. You're not supposed to be swallowing it hook, line and sinker. Jesus. That's the stuff that cults are made of. You don't wait until you're told to commit suicide to start thinking. You're supposed to think about everything, with a right spirit. The pursuit of Truth. Make sure it's not rebellion against the teacher. Make sure it's not a spirit of pride. But, if it's the pursuit of Truth, an honest pursuit of Truth, you're supposed to think about everything. So, I don't know about you, if you would like to believe that Jesus was down on His knees so scared that He was sweating blood at the thought of the cross, well, that's OK with me, I don't care what you think. That's your personal business what you think. Unless you're attacking me over it, then it becomes my business. But I don't believe it. You want to believe it, you believe it. I don't believe it. So, we looked up every word in the Greek and we came up with a totally, radically, different translation. I did not change one Greek word. I merely chose a different translation for some of the Greek words in that account. And I found out that Jesus was not asking the Father if there was any way He could get out of the crucifixion, but was, in fact, asking the Father if He was strong enough to experience, or to press into, the second stage of the resurrection, which is the spiritual circumcision. What does that mean? The spiritual man, Christ Jesus, which was dwelling within the human being, Jesus of Nazareth, that spiritual man, or that new man, was lying underneath the carnal mind that Jesus was born with. Jesus was asking the Father if it were possible, if He was strong enough to pierce through that carnal mind that was layering over Him and enter into the next stage of the resurrection which meant increased spiritual power.
And then we're told, as we continue to look up the words that Jesus entered into an agony, now, the King James says this agony was because of fear that produced drops of blood on Him, but I suggest to you that the agony that He experienced was an agony of the mind. Just as one exerts one's spiritual muscles to pump iron, it was an agony of the mind. And to be honest with you, I never fully understood, and I don't even know that I fully understand it now, but recently I have some understanding of it. I never really understood how you could agonize with your mind until I entered into some of the trials I am going through recently, I've been experiencing other people's souls overlaying my soul. And I'm trying to thrown them off of me, and sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.
It's been a very, very difficult trial for me this last couple of months. And I literally agonize with my mind. The only way I could explain it to you is this. That I am so overtaken with other people's emotions, that I perceive them as my own emotions. The only way to overcome in this situation is to pray out of Christ in faith. What does that mean? To pray thoughts, to think thoughts, to say words, that are in total, the word is contradistinction, they're at a total opposite of your emotions. It's a complete separation of your mind from your emotions. And, Brethren, it takes a great effort of mind, it takes an agony of mind to be feeling intensely one way and to exercise mind power in prayer that is directly opposite from what you are feeling when you are feeling intense emotions. And it can be likened to desiring something very greatly. All you people that love hot fudge sundaes, as you're staring in Friendly's window lusting for that hot fudge sundae, and you drag yourself away. That is an agony of the mind. You are denying your emotions and doing what your mind is telling you what is best for you. Anyone who has experienced that on any level knows it is painful to be experiencing intense emotion, and listening to the rational obeying, the rational mind of Christ, that says, if you eat that candy bar, you could get sick. And leaving it there and turning around and walking away requires an agony of the mind. This is what I've been experiencing lately. The Lord has let some very strong minds come and layer over my emotions, and convince me for a season that they're my emotions. As I submit to the instruction to the Lord, Christ arises in me a separate mind, that stands apart from everything that I'm feeling and prays against what I'm feeling. It's an awesome experience. And to just get myself to the point that I pray the prayer takes an agony of my mind. I've been experiencing a lot of deliverance, but it's very, it's very hard.
So the scripture says Jesus experienced an agony of the mind. He circumcised His carnal mind off of Him. It must have been something similar to what I am going through. I really don't know what He was experiencing, because He was already in Full Stature, so I don't think it could really have been the same thing that I was going through. I can't imagine having someone's ungodly emotions layering over you to the point that you think that they're yours when you're in Full Stature. I wouldn't think so, but I'm really not sure what He was experiencing. But the Father said, yes, you're strong enough, press in, and you will overcome. And I remind you, in the Old Testament we find that the Hebrew children never, ever went to war unless the Lord said go on up. Well, that's not true, excuse me. Every time the Hebrew children went to war when the Father did not say, go on up, they were ...anybody? What? Completely defeated. Now, when the Lord said, go on up, they were completely victorious, with not one wounded, let alone somebody killed. So, the Lord Jesus said, He says, I don't do anything, except what My Father tells Me to do or say. He was asking for permission from the Father to enter into the second stage of the resurrection. And when He came down out of the garden, we have the first sign of aggressive spiritual warfare power appearing in the man Jesus. Which, to me, indicates an increase in power. And what is that sign? The sign was, the guards were looking for Him, they said, where is this man, Jesus, and He said, I Am He. It was just the power of the name, I Am, which is one of the names of God, that the men fell backwards. I can't find any other account in the scripture of an aggressive action by Jesus of Nazareth, who was Christ. He healed the sick, He cast out demons, He raised the dead, He taught, and when the Pharisees tried to kill Him, He disappeared from the midst of them. But we see that after He circumcised the carnal mind off of Him, just announcing Himself as I Am was enough to push a whole group of men backward. There's not a doubt in my mind that if He wanted to, He could have killed them. And all He would have had to have said was, You are dead, and they would have obeyed, they would have died. There's not a doubt in my mind. Also, I can't tell you that I'm exactly sure of the significance of it, we know that when Peter cut off the guard's ear, Jesus just stuck the ear back on, and I don't see any account of doing something like that anywhere else in the scripture. I'm not really sure what the significance is. We know that he formed eyes in the man who was born blind, which was a creative miracle, but somehow there is something special about restoring an ear that was cut off, I just don't exactly have it straight yet.
So, if you can hear this - does anybody have any question or comment about anything that I just said? OK, so, if you can hear all this, then I take it to the next stage. And I say to you that I am of the opinion that Jesus did not even feel pain during the crucifixion. And I base that opinion on my observation of people in this world who operated in high realms of witchcraft. I believe that everything that is done in the world of witchcraft is surely done in the world of Christ, which is the reality. The witchcraft is the lie, the world of Christ is the reality. We have men out there who walk on nails, and their flesh is not pierced, we have men who swallow fire and they're not burnt, in Africa they have cults that slice their arms and legs with sharp, machete type knives and their flesh is not pierced. We have all kinds of signs and wonders being done by witchcraft power where the body should, under normal circumstances, be damaged, but it's not damaged. So, why wouldn't Jesus have the same power? Why would not the Son of God, who was raised from the dead, who clearly announced that no man could take His life, but He lays it down, the only man ever to have attained to the second stage of the resurrection, and eventually the third stage which is glorification, why would he not be able to hang on the cross having his hands and feet pierced through with nails and have enough power over His body to not feel the pain? Brethren, we're supposed to have power over our body. Paul said, I keep my body under, he said, this body doesn't do anything that I don't tell it to do. Jesus, when it came to eating and drinking, He said, I have meat that you know not of. He said, I don't even need food, like natural men need food. So, why would He feel pain when the guru in India doesn't feel pain? Doesn't make any sense to me at all. Do you dare to think for yourself? Do you dare to break church doctrine, do you dare to break away from the group mind of the church that tells you what to think? Do you dare? Do you dare to have an independent thought and go before the Lord and ask Him, could it possibly be true? And if it turns out that it's not true, are you tough enough to take the correction? Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, but there's a price for liberty. And liberty and pride don't go together. Liberty and humility go together.
I was very blessed the other day, I was looking for a program to watch on T.V. and I was just scanning through the UHF channels and my VCR doesn't tape on Channel 50, I'm really sorry I couldn't tape this program. It was a science, an educational program in science, where they were teaching people how to think. And it was so close to what I teach here. It was being taught as a psychology class. And I found out that there is a name for what I teach here, but they teach it in the world, it's called critical thinking. Critical thinking. And the knowledge of the program was talking about scientific knowledge. Telling the people, if you want to be a critical thinker, which is a high spiritual realm, you have to be willing to admit that you've made mistakes, that what you believed yesterday, it sounded good yesterday, but now you have more information and you have to give up what you believed yesterday and go on with what you're finding out today. That is exactly what I'm teaching here. And as a matter of fact, this method is coupled together in this program with an attack on the church. The producer of this program was saying that religion is anti-critical thinking. That they control your mind, and they were showing all these crowds of cults in which the ? swallow everything that the leader teaches them, just swallows it whole. And he was really coming against religion, saying that's no way for an intelligent man to live. Well, it isn't a way for an intelligent man to live. And the true Body of Christ doesn't live like that. Except, I don't really know any other church that teaches this. Wherever the true Body of Christ is, this is what they're teaching, because this is Christ, Brethren. Christ is not looking for a bunch of robots. But it's not easy to be a critical thinker, it's hard. You have to deal with your feelings, you have to deal with your pride, you have to stay in constant communion with the Lord Jesus Christ, you have to be able to deal with it when he doesn't give you answers immediately, which is very common with the Lord. What does it mean that He doesn't answer your questions immediately? It could mean one of two things usually. Either you're not mature enough to understand the answer and that you've asked a question, that in order for you to understand the answer, He has to teach you a couple of other things first. So, He may not answer you. It's like wanting to learn Algebra before you learn your basic arithmetic. So, He'll teach you Algebra. You asked an algebraic question, but there's really just no way you can understand it until you learn how to add and subtract. So, He'll get you there, but you may have to wait a couple of years. And then the other possible is, if it happens that the teacher made a mistake, it may take Him a year to correct the teacher. You cannot bring these things to pass in your own power, especially since you really don't know whether the teacher made the mistake or you just didn't understand it, and if the teacher is a teacher that is ordained of God, the chances are 99% that you just didn't understand it, most likely. So, you have to be able to let go of these things. Concentrate on what you can believe at the moment. Believe and God's going to work it all out, He's going to work it all out.
The church is not perfect, we're in imperfection at this moment. So, you have to have faith in God and concentrate on what you can deal with. We're not supposed to be a bunch of mindless zombies. But yet, we will be under authority until Christ is perfected in us. We're talking about walking a line, walking a tightrope, it is not easy to do! That's why it's so hard to find a fellowship like this in the church. It's difficult! But, it did bless me to find out that there's a name to what I teach here and that we are the living proof, this fellowship, is the living proof that everything that the world mocks in the church, that there is a reality in Christ which they have no right to mock, that we're doing it the right way. There is a reality in Christ that would silence the mouth of the critics of the church because the critics of the church have a lot of very valid criticisms of the church. They just do. But for every criticism out there and the reality of Christ Jesus, there is a truth, or there is a lifestyle, or there is an answer, or there is a ministry which would silence their tongues. And we have a lot of that here, actually, every criticism I've ever heard is not valid with this ministry. Maybe someday I'll hear a criticism that would be valid here. It's possible. But, I've heard a lot of criticism of the church at large, and none of it is a valid criticism of this ministry. So, that's a sign that Christ is appearing here, and, I don't know about you, but that's very exciting to me. It's very exciting to Michelle also. She's grinning from ear to ear.
So, Brethren, I don't see how the Son of God could be hanging on the cross in pain when the Hindu guru walks on nails and doesn't have pain. I don't see how the Son of God, whose mind was so strong that it was able to keep his body alive, He said, No man can take My life, that a mind that was that strong, couldn't block out the physical pain of having His body pierced through. I don't know about you, but I can't believe that He was in agony up there. If you want to believe it, that's OK with me. I don't believe it! It doesn't make any sense! They have cults in the east, in Asia, the men have their minds trained, I don't know if there are women involved in it, the people involved in it have minds which are so trained that they can commit suicide in about 5 seconds. Do you know during World War II, when the allies sent spies into German territory, they knew that if they were caught, they could be tortured. So, they sent the spies in with cyanide tablets, that better they should die, than be tortured, and, eventually die after much agony. Sometimes they even gave them minor surgery and put the cyanide tablet under their skin in their wrist, so all they had to do was bite, and they knew exactly where it was, and if they bit into it, it went into their bloodstream. But, there are cults in Asia that, I saw a movie once where the guy was trying to get the cyanide pill into his mouth, and the gestapo guard got to him first, and he couldn't swallow the cyanide pill and they tortured him. But, there are groups of people who are trained, usually they're Asian, but they're trained to swallow their tongue. They can commit their mind, they can kill themselves with their mind in less than sixty seconds. But, you think the Son of God had a mind which wasn't strong enough to keep Him from feeling the pain? I have a problem with that, Brethren. I have a real problem with that. You have a question? OK.
COMMENT: As you were speaking, it made me think of a program that I watched last night, it's called Turning Point. And a young man who was an epileptic was having fifteen to twenty seizures a month, went under an operation, and it showed where they removed the skull, and they took the skin back over the brain, the brain was exposed, and they actually made a road map of his brain. He was awake. Prior to the operation they showed pictures to him - this is a house, this is a dog - and while he was lying there with his brain exposed, they touched various parts of his brain that they had all marked out, like territorial areas of his brain, and he would say, this is a house, this is a dog, they touched that, he couldn't tell you what it is, they removed the pressure, he could tell you what it is. They showed different parts of the brain, and it's different in everyone, I was surprised to learn that, where this part controls the language, they pressed on this part and he could feel sensations in the right side of his tongue, another part...and I was just wondering as I pictured Jesus on the cross, now He was crucified, He had the crown of thorns on His head. Could the Father, in His infinite mercy, have already touched.... In Psalms it says, we're beautifully made, and all that, I'm just wondering, the Father had such a...He's not a God of confusion, He's a God of order and He sets up everything, I'm just wondering if...
PASTOR VITALE: What's very interesting, and I don't think it's way out, but I would take it a step further. According to what you say, it took external force, if that were true, OK? Let's get together a hypothesis. What is a hypothesis? It's a train of thought, it's a series of thoughts that lead to a conclusion and then you go and you either prove the hypothesis or you disprove it. So, you just came forth with a hypothesis, a theory, you came forth with a theory that could make sense, it makes a lot of sense, but I don't believe that the Son of the Living God made external thorns to touch His brain so that He wouldn't feel pain. I think that the Spirit in that Man was so powerful that it controlled His brain so completely that by Spirit power, His pain centers were suppressed.
COMMENT: But He does nothing but what the Father wanted. If it was the Father's will that He not suffer, couldn't this pattern fall into place?
PASTOR VITALE: The pattern that you're talking about? The only problem that I have with what you're saying is that to me, it shows the Son of God needing an external force to keep Him from pain, and what I'm saying to you, I'm saying, there's something higher, that the Spirit of the Son of God is powerful enough to manipulate the organic brain. There's a pleasure center in the organic brain, there's a pain center, everything is in the brain, you see? Everything, every pleasure or pain that man experiences through the senses, through the skin, through the taste, through touch, can be experienced through manipulation of the brain. As you just said, pressing pressure points in the brain. I'm suggesting to you that the Spirit, which was in the Man Jesus, which was the Spirit of Christ, had the power to suppress whatever brain center He wanted, and that that would be a higher condition, a higher state of being, finding it necessary to have wicked men pierce your brain with thorns.
COMMENT: But as you have taught, the carnal mind was being crucified by the mind of Christ. Would this also be another manner in which it took place? At first in the natural, then the spirit?
PASTOR VITALE: The carnal mind is, well, the carnal mind is spiritual, it's not organic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I think that that was excellent thinking, I think the thought was excellent, I just take it a step further and I'm giving more power to the Christ.
COMMENT: I'm just realizing now, as we're just talking, that there's a difference between the brain and the mind.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes.
COMMENT: The brain is just the organic body, the mind is spirit.
PASTOR VITALE: Right, right. The brain is organic, it's flesh, but the mind is spirit. And I believe that in a man who's in full stature, they have a mind which is so powerful that it completely controls the soul and the body, including the physical brain in both the pain and pleasure centers of the brain, that the spirit completely controls the brain. And we know right now we see certain substitutes controlling the brain with drugs, controlling the pleasure and pain center of the brain with drugs, and it's demonic, and people become addicted. I believe the spirit of Christ can control the brain when it's alive. It has to be alive in us. Jesus.
If that spirit which raised Christ from the dead dwells in you, it will quicken you're mortal body. Your mortal body is your soul. Your immortal body is your spirit. The soul that sins, dies. The spirit goes back to the Father. But when that spirit is alive in Christ, it will control every aspect of our physical being. How do you think the gurus in India walk on nails without having their feet pierced? They have such a powerful mind control that it prevents their skin from piercing. Brethren, we've already begun to enter into this. Have you heard of holistic healing? It's being taught in this country today. Heal yourself, speak to your body, and for people who's mind is strong enough, it works. A lot of them get healings and it's not by the spirit of Christ. Mind power, mind power, mind power. There's tremendous mind power in the carnal mind, and what about the mind of Christ which is fully raised from the dead? A mind that could make an ear grow back on. Where do you think Jesus's power was coming from? It was coming from His spirit, which was filtering through his mind. He could put an ear back on, He could cause men to fall over as though they were dead, He could put eyes where the man was born with no eyes, but He had no power to block out the pain when He was crucified? Impossible, I say. Irrational. Makes no sense whatsoever. The church is infantile. We've got to grow up or we're going to die in our sins.
PASTOR VITALE: Do you have a question?
COMMENT: I was just wondering if that's what happened in the garden when He went through such mind agony, was it at that time that He was overcoming the pain. He sweat great drops of blood, is it possible that He overcame the whole, the pain of the, I don't know if He suppressed it, or overcame it, or what, but before He went and had all of that torture, that it says, you couldn't even tell who He was after they were done, and all that. So, He didn't save His body, I mean, if they walk on nails and nothing happens to their feet, well, that means that they have the power to save, save their body, if their feet weren't bleeding after they walked on nails, but apparently He didn't choose to save His body, He was bleeding all over the place, His flesh having off of Him and everything. So, He didn't need to save His body, He didn't have the need to do that, so, I guess, He chose not to do that, but then, what I'm thinking is, you know, did He overcome it while He was still in the garden? Is that evidence that He overcome, to get on top of all of that pain, and not feel the pain. Was that the time that He may have said that?
PASTOR VITALE: Well, what I think you're asking me is, if, what I think you're asking me is this, the answer is yes, but let me just clarify what you're asking me. What I think you're asking me is, this experience that He had in the garden, which I identify as the second stage of the resurrection, did it bring Him to a high enough spiritual place so that He could deal with the crucifixion? Is that what you're asking me?
PASTOR VITALE: Cause I, I believe so. That's my opinion. And, there is one other thing I'd like to point out. Pain, you don't have any pain without nerves. People that are paralyzed, you can stick them all you want and cause them to bleed all that you want and they don't feel any pain because the nerves are dead, and the nerves are part of the nervous system, and the nervous system is all connected to the brain. And the brain is connected to the spinal cord, you know... I'm suggesting to you that He had authority over the organic brain, which is the controller of all pleasure and pain and every aspect of our emotional and physical being, and that Jesus had the power to deaden the nerves in His body that would have produced the pain when His flesh was ripped off. I believe that.
COMMENT: And that's what I'm asking, if it was in the garden, when he was pierced through and sweat great drops of blood? Was that the time when He overcame this organic brain.
PASTOR VITALE: Yeah, it may be. Whether or not He had that power to do that after the first stage of resurrection, I don't know. Because, and this is why I don't know, I've asked myself that question. When He was crucified, He was raised from the dead and He was glorified, so He knew that He would be glorified at that point. So, it could be that He needed the second stage of resurrection to not feel the pain, but also, it could be that He just had to go through the second stage of the resurrection before He went through the third stage. So, for whatever reason, that was the time when He did it, in the garden. Therefore, I don't know the answer to your question. Would He have been able to exercise enough authority over His brain, His organic brain, to not feel the pain, before the second stage of the resurrection, I don't know the answer to that question. But, it's a good question.
COMMENT: I also have another question, that, isn't it true that He wasn't thirsty on the cross? And he was really thirsting, what did you say, thirsting for glorification?
PASTOR VITALE: Or something like that.
COMMENT: Or victory over something?
PASTOR VITALE: Victory over something spiritual.
COMMENT: Victory over that, or whatever you said. I don't understand why He received it. Cause it does say that He received it.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes.
COMMENT: And there have been things said that actually drinking vinegar can nullify pain, and that was the reason that they give it. But, if He had no pain, then He had no reason to receive the vinegar.
PASTOR VITALE: I really haven't studied that through, and I know that I did say that, based on the story of the temptation, where it says, He hungered, and then we looked up every word about Him hungering, we found out that what He was hungering for was dominion over His soul, not for natural food, dominion over His carnal mind. So, just as a matter of consistency, I believe I said, I suspect very strongly that when He said He thirsted, that He must also be thirsting for something spiritual. But, I haven't looked up every word, so I don't know. But, you make a good point, I just haven't studied it.
COMMENT: Don't the scriptures say that He refused that drink?
PASTOR VITALE: First He refused it and then, after a certain point, He received it. So, there's something significant in that. He first refused it, and I think after, didn't He receive it after He said, it's done.
COMMENT: Yeah, I think after He said, It's done, He received it.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, it was after something, after He cried out, He received it. So, I don't know, but, if the Lord lets me, I'll study it. I want to do the whole Bible, Brethren. I want to do the whole Bible overnight. So many questions, so many good questions, and I just don't know the answer to them. Excellent, excellent questions.
See, the Lord is raising up sons here. He's not raising up a bunch of zombies. He's raising us up to be thinking people, but He's training us to think with His mind. Big, big difference between being under the imputed anointing where you just present yourself and the Holy Spirit whips through you and uses you and manipulates you. That's good in its place, it's a realm of spiritual experience that is immature. And, it's fine if that's where you are. But, Brethren, you need to know that there is more, there's a higher realm, whereby the actual wisdom of God is imparted to us so that we can think for ourselves because our mind is the mind of God. A much higher realm. The Lord wants us to think for ourselves and when we're thinking with His mind, it's very exciting. He wants us to be a Son, not a servant. It says in another place, that he tells His Son everything, and we become His friend. But when you're His servant, what do you do with a servant? You command, and the servant obeys. But the Son, he's learning the whole business. He learns to be a ruler, he learns to be a commander, like his Father. The servant just stays a servant.
PASTOR VITALE: Did you have a question?
COMMENT: I just wondered if we're supposed to follow Jesus the same way, will we be experiencing the same things that He experienced, you know, the steps that He went through to the crucifixion. Will we experience any of that in our walk?
PASTOR VITALE: Well, I don't think we're going to be physically crucified. I think that our walk will be closer to Paul's than to Jesus'. Although, Paul was offered up also. I don't think we're required to be physically crucified.
COMMENT: How about mentally?
PASTOR VITALE: Now, Paul was mentally crucified, definitely. Paul had been a very persecuted man. He was reviled, he was talked about, he was hated, he was called a false prophet, he was cast out, he was locked out of the main church, they didn't want to have anything to do with him, the other apostles didn't fellowship with him. He was severely persecuted.
COMMENT: This will be when we're made into the image of Christ, so we should go through the same things that Paul went through also, then. Is that true? To be in the image of Christ?
PASTOR VITALE: Well, going through them is forming us into His image. The trials are designed to exercise us to choose to respond out of the mind of Christ and not the carnal mind. Exercise. The flesh is wounded, the Lord lets the flesh be wounded, not to this physical flesh, but our soul. We're to be wounded so that we're forced to exercise our spirit. And the flesh is made weak, and it just forces the spirit to rise up and start fighting by the spirit. Can you find your powerlessness in your flesh? But there's no way to avoid this persecution. I'm sorry, I've condemned you. I don't know where anybody would go, ?, those people you really have to be ? with, the Lord has to bring you to a place where your natural life is so painful that you just go towards God no matter what. I know, the way I feel is this, no matter how painful my walk with Christ goes, I know He will never leave me, He will never forsake me, He will never even die on me. I know He'll always be there for me, and if you choose carnal relationships over Christ, that's just plain foolishness, because imperfect man will always let you down. And they must let you down. That's why you can't idolize people in the pulpit. I surely will let you down at some time. As much as I know that you love me, I know that the day has to come that you let me down. You can try and try and try and determine that you will never hurt me. But the day must come that you hurt me because you're not perfect. You see?
And, when you have a natural husband or natural close soul ties, the day will come that they might, maybe they'll die. It doesn't have to be a betrayal. If it's your husband, he doesn't have to leave you for another woman, maybe he'll just die on you. Or, maybe one day, you'll leave him and he'll be out of town on a business trip. Human beings fail you. And usually they fail you a lot. As hard as they try, they let you down. So, if I have to have pain in my life, I take Jesus, because He never lets me down. He's never out of town on a business trip, He's never going to go away because He dies. He's never not going to be there, for any reason, He's always nigh unto me immediately. So, no matter how hard life gets, I choose Him, above all others. I choose Him above every human relationship, and to do anything other than that, Brethren, I'm sorry, is sheer foolishness. It is nothing less than foolishness. Just make sure you're serving Jesus. You know, when He comes into your life, He should replace your husband, He should replace your mother, your father, your children, that's what the scripture says, just make sure it's Jesus that you're serving. And, so long as there's no conflict, you go with your family life. But the minute there's a conflict for you to choose a human relationship over Jesus makes you a scriptural fool. I'm sorry, I believe that's what the scripture teaches. And you have to believe that there is a conflict and Jesus is calling you this way and your husband wants you or your mother wants you to go that way, that if it's really Jesus calling you, that He's going to take care of your family, whatever the situation is. He's in control. But He's not hurting anybody for punishment sake. And He's working all things for their good, maybe even for their salvation. All right? So, when there's a conflict, Brethren, if you don't go with God, you're nothing less than foolish. I think there are many scriptures to bear that out. I know a lot of people don't, but there's a lot of foolish people in the church.
Did I answer your question? Okay. There's no easy way out. They hated Him and they'll hate you. They persecuted Him and they'll persecute you. And they lied about Him and they'll like about you. And they tried to kill Him and they'll try to kill you. And, when they did it to Him, He was already perfect. When it's happening to us, we're still sinners. That means that we actually, we deserve everything that's happening to us, and it's an opportunity to respond out of Christ, therefore killing our carnal mind and breaking the curse that is on our family line, which will result in the benefit to the other members of our household. It's a hard word, carnally minded people will have all kinds evil things to say about this teaching, but this is, this is not even Sheila's gospel. This is obvious in the scripture. He who gives up mother and father, and lands and children, shall receive one hundred fold in this life. But, with persecution. Praise the Lord.
So, some people don't have a choice. Some people God is taking against their will, and no matter how hard they try to run, they don't get very far, they get yanked back. But other people, if you run, He lets you go. So, actually, it's easier for the people that He doesn't... I was one of those people, my life was so cut off at every corner. I don't really perceive that I had any choice. My human life was such a devastation, I had no place to go except directly towards Christ. The people who have functional families and good things in their life, it's very hard to choose. He gave the rich man a choice, right? He said, sell all your things and follow Me. And the rich man went away and Jesus let him go. So, there's different categories of people for whatever reason. The scripture says, He who is first shall be last and he who is last shall be first. Looks like the have-nots of this world have preferences when it comes to the Kingdom of God, that the harder your life is, the easier it is for you to enter into the Kingdom because there's just nothing for you to go back to. But, Jesus said, how hard it is for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom. And I don't think He was just speaking about Donald Trump type millionaires. I think He was talking about people that even had spiritual riches in this world - families, children, grandchildren - how hard it is for people who have positive things in this world to enter into the Kingdom because you're not going to want to leave them. Most people that He takes without their agreement, they're screaming and kicking and yelling the whole way, not wanting whatever it is that they're being forced to give up. If you really gave them their choice, they'd probably go running after it and leave Him standing at the altar. It's just our fallen, human condition. So, it's much easier when you have no choice. I honestly can't tell you what I would have done if I had a choice. I didn't have a choice. I don't take any credit for winding up where I am. Praise the Lord.
PASTOR VITALE: You look like you're in crisis. Are you in crisis?
COMMENT: I'm not having a crisis, crisis, but I guess being alone. You know, after being with a family, then being separated from the family after, how many years, you know, the thought of, like, even, my husband going away, say for five days now, and just the thought of me being home alone, it's hard.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, he's just going away for five days. What about those of us who either have no husband, or - you really have to get your thoughts straight.
COMMENT: I can understand how you feel, but it's not an easy thing.
PASTOR VITALE: What I'm saying is that, if the Lord lets you keep your husband and family and he just goes away for five days at a time, that's no big deal. What about the people that have no husbands? It's a continuous thing, what's five days?
COMMENT: I guess, it's just, like, an introduction, you know what I mean? But, you feel that your experience, it's like a test, you know, like a little test, for five days, and you think to yourself, what would it be like, if this was the real thing, that there would be no more.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, I could see that, I think that was an insensitive thing for me to say. I guess for someone who's been used to it all of these years, for you, five days is a big deal.
See, it's just a question of what you're used to. It's like an athlete, you know. Like an athlete, the more you do, the more you can do; the more you press in, the more you can endure. That's it, spiritual athletics. See, for me, it's absolutely, I mean, people look at me and they say, you live here alone, aren't you lonely? I'm not lonely. There was a time when I was terribly lonely. I used to walk into this house and I'd say Lord, the silence here is deafening. It was horrible for me. But I had a piercing through. And I've pierced through into another realm, I'm not lonely at all. The Lord is very real to me, but I do understand what you're saying and there are other people right in this room who experience a lot of loneliness, they haven't pierced through yet. The Lord has them on the Isle of Patmos.
COMMENT: See, I haven't experienced that, and it's like every moment of the day, every day there's always someone around, and, as I say, have never really experienced loneliness. And, when I see it now, it just hit me that, you know, five days, which isn't much, I know I'll have things to do, but it's just, looking ahead and seeing what you people have, that you had to go through that. That, someday I'll have to do that too.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, my advice to you is to not dwell on it. Don't dwell on it. Just make your decision, are you going to follow Jesus no matter what, or you're not going to follow Him. If you start weighing the pros and cons there's a good chance you'll decide not to follow Him. So, don't think about it too much. But be careful, because the scripture said that man had gathered all that money, he gathered it, and filled all his barns and that night, his soul was required of him, you know. So, what am I saying to you? If you're one of these people who are called, whether you agree to come or not, and you choose not to go for a reason like that, the Lord could strip you of your whole family. See? Or, He might let you die. So, this train of thought, this is all wrong thinking. What I'm telling you is what you're thinking is all wrong thinking and you're going to get snared in it. You're going to get snared in it very badly, and one of two things will happen. You'll backslide out of His work for the Kingdom, or He'll take your family away from you. So, you shouldn't even be thinking along these lines. Very dangerous. Anybody else?
COMMENT: I was just thinking that the Lord requires a willingness for you just to give up these things. He doesn't necessarily take them away from you. If you don't idolize them.
PASTOR VITALE: It's an attitude of the heart, exactly.
COMMENT: You're to surrender whenever He wants.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, but I didn't hear a willingness to surrender in what you just said. Danger, danger, danger. Dangerous attitude.
COMMENT: I am willing to surrender, but, you know, it's just the experience, thinking about the experience of it all.
PASTOR VITALE: Don't dwell on it, June. Anybody else?
And, as I think Jesus dwelling on being crucified, you know, it's dangerous. It's negative thinking, it's not the mind of Christ, you should be resisting this thought. Put your mind on the scripture. At the very least, if nothing else, you're abiding in your carnal mind, and it's not good. Anybody else? Praise you, Jesus.
COMMENT: ? it was just about that situation, but about anything negative, it's really of the fear, and dwelling on that fear will either cause you to fall into it, or to dwell on the fear, there's no purpose in it at all.
PASTOR VITALE: No, very dangerous.
COMMENT: It draws you into the carnal and then you end up that way.
PASTOR VITALE: Just by worrying about it, you've chosen it.
COMMENT: Or else your fear comes upon you.
PASTOR VITALE: That what you fear comes upon you, yes.
COMMENT: I'm just thinking that everything that the Lord had me give up was to my benefit. There was so much growth, it turned out to be a blessing that I thought was a terrible trick. It turned out to be a very special blessing that the Lord was leading me into a higher ?
PASTOR VITALE: I have the same kind of story, I know fifteen years ago, I would never believed I would have wound up like this. Somebody said to me, what would you say if the Lord told you you're not going to get married again. And I said, don't even say the words. That was my answer. I don't want to talk about it. And now, I'm very much at peace with this life. I would have never believed it fifteen years ago. I said, don't even think about it. I got really upset with that person, I said, false prophet. Don't even talk to me about it. See the Lord knows, He knows what's good for you. We don't know what's good for us. We don't know what's good for us. We can't see the end from the beginning. So, the best thing is to put our lives in His hands. It's okay if you tell Him how you feel, but don't tell Him what to do.
COMMENT: Actually, He always takes us the easiest way. It's better His way than if we're left to our ways.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, it's true.
COMMENT: He's much more merciful upon us than we are of ourselves.
PASTOR VITALE: You try to convince people of that. Looks like it's hard, sounds like it's hard, feels like it's hard, but I agree with you. It's just you don't realize it until you're there. Look, Brethren, no matter which way you go, life is very hard. No matter which way you go, life is very hard.
COMMENT: If you get too comfortable with one lifestyle, you think he's given you two, because He switches it around on you, and you don't know what's going to happen. You can't control your life.
PASTOR VITALE: No. You have to give your life up to Christ, believing that He's going to bless you.
COMMENT: I would like for you to clarify one thing, though. After I listened to everything you had said to her, I was thinking, what about the scripture to stop and count the cost, and I don't believe that scripture applies to her, because of all you said. She's not stopping and counting the cost, it's coming out of the wrong spirit. I'm sure you do stop and count the cost, you know, that scripture?
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, but that's speaking about a totally different thing. Stop and count the cost, let me give you an example for that. Well, when you stop and count the cost, it's whether or not you want to follow Christ. In other words, what I had said earlier, Jesus, I know that, Jesus, I will never lose Him. He will never betray me, He will never fail me, He will never abandon me. That's counting the cost. Who do you choose? Do you choose the human being who must fail you, who must betray you, hopefully on only a small level, but He must in His perfection, I must let you down, I must disappoint you, I must fail you, hopefully not too often, but the day must come that I do not meet your need.
COMMENT: What is the difference between what you're saying right now, choose a human being or God, and what she's saying?
PASTOR VITALE: The difference is, that you're comparing the benefits of Christ as a whole, following Christ, to a human marriage. But, what she's talking about is, the only answer I can give you right now, I know it's not a complete answer, but the only thing that's coming to me is that she's coming out of her carnal mind, and she's not counting the cost, she's dwelling in fear. She's not accurately, to count the cost means to accurately evaluate the situation. She's not accurately evaluating it. Because you cannot accurately evaluate out of your carnal mind. You have to accurately evaluate out of your Christ mind. She is dwelling in fear, that's not counting the cost. Everybody isn't called to this. Everybody isn't called to it.
I heard one of the speakers at that Connecticut convention, he really blessed me with what he said about being in the ministry. There's a lot of young disciples, they think they'd like to be in the ministry, it looks and it sounds very glamorous, you know, you preach and you teach and you travel all over the world, you don't have a nine to five job, you only have a four in the morning to two in the morning job, not a nine to five job, and they think it looks very glamorous, but it's a very hard life, and this preacher said, my advice to you is, if there's any other job that you could enjoy doing, then don't go into the ministry. Take this other job. Because for you to be able to endure the hardship of being in the ministry, you have to be so, the call on your life has to be so strong that you literally could not be happy doing anything else. And, I could say Amen to that. I'd be willing to pay any price, because it's so much in my blood to be in the ministry. And, it's not likely that you will survive the spiritual warfare and the hardships in the ministry if you could be happy doing anything else.
COMMENT: Didn't you say that the Lord did that, He showed you, like getting comfortable in a certain way, you think that the Lord is, didn't you say that the Lord did that to you one time, working in Manhattan, or something like that, it was like, you didn't want to go, or something like that, and then you finally went and said, okay, I like it here and then the Lord moved you out. Is that - that's what I'm talking about, getting real comfortable with something and you say, okay, Lord, this is it, I accept it, and all of a sudden He says no, I want you over here.
PASTOR VITALE: Right. And He'll whip you around like that and it's a little whipping around until He brings you to a place where He makes a judgment that you're so broken that you'll just go whichever way He sends you, and then it doesn't become necessary to do that anymore. But He hasn't done that to me in a while. I better not talk. Because I pretty much do whatever He tells me, pretty much. I'm really, some people misinterpret me, but now that I, some people see it as passivity, it's not passivity, it's ? I'm just broken, I just go wherever He sends me. Paul says, he's learned to be content with whatever the Lord has given him.
COMMENT: I was reading this article, this minister, and it was really good, he was talking about being led by God, that some people are led by God because He's got a bit in their mouth, that He would be prefer, and He's directing you like a horse, but He would prefer that the relationship would be so close, that you just easily hear what He says and you're obedient. And I thought that was interesting, because a lot of times He does treat us like a horse, He controls us and forces us to go in that way, or this way, or that way, but to just in the slightest thing you hear, just to be obedient would be the most intimate relationship there is, and you just do it because you want to, and you're not doing it because, like you're employed, like your doing it for the Lord, but you know you're getting paid at the end of the month, but because you want to, because the Lord said. I want that realm where you just hear it.
PASTOR VITALE: I preach a similar thing, I say, when He wants us to be ? trained where He doesn't have to put a bit in your mouth, it's just the slightest, slightest pressure of the knee and the horse goes. That's where you want him to go, yes. And, that's what He's looking for. He takes no pleasure in forcing us against our will, but He will break us to bring us to that point. He knows which ones of us, every horse is not capable of being ? trained. You need a special horse, you need a very intelligent horse, a very sensitive horse, and horse trainers pick only certain horses, because it's very time consuming and expensive to train a horse for ?. That they pick the most likely candidate to train for ?. And, in this hour, although it's hard to believe when you look at us, I certainly include myself for that remark, the Lord has picked every one of us that is being trained to be a Son in this hour, He's picked us very carefully because it's a very hard, arduous, painful processing for this first group that's coming up, and every one of us is hand-picked. Every one of us. You may not think so, but we're all a very tough bunch.
Oh, by the way, talking about a tough bunch, Mary brought those papers back, so you wanted them next? Where did you leave them over there. Okay. And a prophecy brought forth in the 1600's talks about that, that the average person would never make it if, would never survive the stress or the pressure of what we're going through at this hour. It's spiritual. Spiritual stress and pressure. In some cases it's physical, I've had all kinds of physical pain, but it's mostly spiritual and emotional stress and pressure. The average person would never make it through. We're Green Berets, Brethren.
COMMENT: So, you're saying, what I'm experiencing is fear. Does everyone go through that fear, of..
PASTOR VITALE: Of being alone?
PASTOR VITALE: I don't know...
COMMENT: At one time or another, like, you say, we're hand picked and it's something that I'll have to experience, just as others have experienced. Have the fear of it, you know.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, I can't say that, I don't think Mary's ever experienced a fear of being alone. Everybody doesn't have exactly the same experience, so I can't tell you that. But, whatever you're afraid of, you have to overcome. So, the Lord knows what He's doing with you. You see, Mary is a radically different personality type than you are, if you don't mind me using you as an example. You're a very dependent life type person, she's not. If, God forbid, she found herself on an island somewhere, she would be fine. She's a very self-sufficient woman and I don't think she's dependent on her husband at all.
COMMENT: But that most certainly the way before the Lord dealt with me to ?
PASTOR VITALE: Okay. So, right now, you're in a condition where you're a very dependent wife. So, the Lord's going to do whatever He has to do to make you into the image of what He's called you to be. Because He's called you to be a Son. When I say you're tough, what I'm talking about, everybody, is you're spiritually tough. You may not be tough in your emotions. I even had somebody say to me, a couple of people have said to me, Pastor Sheila, we always knew you'll didn't know what you were talking about, now I know for sure you don't know what you're talking about, because I'm not tough, I'm a very weak person, and, if that's what you're all probably sitting here saying the same thing, I wish Pastor Sheila knew what she was talking about, this is what I'm talking about, you are spiritually tough, spiritually tough. And as far as your emotions are concerned, everybody, we are what our lifestyle has made us. Everybody that comes in here is very spiritually tough but emotionally weak, and what makes you emotionally weak is the family line curses and the experience, and the life experiences that you have had have devastated you, have battered you like a storm, continuously so much over your life, that it's made you, that it has produced emotional weakness in you. People are not born emotionally weak. People are made emotionally weak by family line curses and life experiences. But, what your spirit is, you're born with. If you're spiritually strong, you're born with that potential for spiritual strength which is being modified by your emotional weakness, so the scripture says your flesh needs to be wounded, you need to have heart experiences in your emotion, so that the spiritual strength, the potential for spiritual strength is forced to the surface. So, it's a contradiction if you think that you're emotionally weak and spiritually strong. It's not a contradiction, well, it is a contradiction, but an understandable one. And, we're dealing with spiritual strength. Once you become spiritually strong, you will then become emotionally strong. The fact that you're emotionally strong does not necessarily guarantee spiritual strength. The Lord will lead you up from the inside out. From the spirit, outward. You can put it in, I don't know how much further we'll go, but you can put it in.