Part 3 of 3 Parts

The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
 The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.

COMMENT: You know Sheila, I look over at some of these words to some of these songs, and that discussion that we had today, you know just about how many songs that talk about I need you, give me this, give me that, I find myself struggling with some of these things now, just with that concept.  God is telling us to grow up, and take on responsibility.

PASTOR VITALE: Absolutely. 

COMMENT: Just to kind of give you a background of what I am talking about with Sheila, on the way over there today I was listening to a song on the radio, and that is what the song was talking about, I need you, help us, it is just asking the Lord to do everything for me, do this, do this, do this, do this, and I asked the question, I began to ask myself is there any Scripture verse when Jesus of Nazareth was living, is there any Scripture verse where Jesus actually is asking for help, where He is actually saying, where He is actually praying, I need you, or give me this, is there any Scripture verse, and I thought of a couple of passages that do not even mean that, which is my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, there was that kind of a cry out for help, which actually does not mean that.  I forget what the actual...

PASTOR VITALE: It means, forsake me, He was crying out to Elijah to let Him depart from the body, that was Jesus of Nazareth saying, I know that my spiritual man is going to depart, do it already. 

COMMENT: And then there was the garden of Gethsemane where He says, Let this cup pass from me if it be thy will, it is kind of in a manner where, it is kind of like He is talking from a childhood standpoint, I do not want to do this Lord, I do not want to do this Father, but you know I will do it, and that is not even correct.

PASTOR VITALE: No, if you analyze that statement, it is really an abomination for people who believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God, they have to make up their mind, is he God, or is he a sniffling kid, you know, because does God really act like that, God does not act like that, and of course it does not mean that.  I looked up every thing about that passage and I am absolutely convinced that Jesus was not saying anything of the sort, and He was not so scared that blood was appearing that He was sweating blood, I absolutely do not believe it.  This is what I believe the Greek reveals.  First of all the cup that Jesus was talking about was this physical body. 

The physical body is a container for the spiritual life, and He was talking to the Father about passing out of that physical container, it was talking about passing out of the physical container, and He was saying to the Father, Look Father, I do not know how much longer I can stay in this physical container.  Let me explain that to you. 

The mind forms the container that it stays in, just like a caterpillar or just like the cocoon is formed around the caterpillar if I am saying it that way, that becomes a butterfly, this physical body is formed by the carnal mind and the whole man, the carnal mind and the personality, the carnal mind and the soul, that dwells in the body.  Jesus of Nazareth was so completely converted at that point, His carnal mind was so completely under the control of His Christ mind, that He was Christ, and the Christ mind wanted to form the container that it dwelled in.  This body is an animal body, it is a reflection of an animal mind, the carnal mind is an animal mind, that is just the truth, but Jesus of Nazareth at this point was possessed of a God mind, and God does not look like a four footed beast, as we are told in Romans chapter 1.

Jesus was saying to the Father, Lord I know that you sent me here to be crucified, He was crucified so that men would believe.  The death of Jesus of Nazareth had to be made public so that the story would get out of the resurrection so that people could believe in Him.  He did not have to be crucified because of a blood thirsty God, that is just a complete lie which is, if you want me to, I will explain that to you later, but let me stay on this subject, He was crucified so that men would believe so that the story would be made public, and He was saying Father, I cannot stop this physical cup, this cup is dissolving, I believe the big drops of blood that were appearing on Him as sweat, they were really, that was His spiritual essence dissolving this physical body and trying to convert it into an image that would reflect the living God, whatever that would be, I do not know, but at the very least, His inner essence was dissolving the appearance of an animal, because the cup that Jesus wanted to pass out of, did not reflect the nature of the spiritual man that was in Him. 

Jesus was saying, Father I do not know, how much longer I can hold this animal form.  The animal form was being sustained by His mind.  He said, I do not know how much longer I can do it, this cup is dissolving, it is dissolving, and if you want me to exhibit a public execution, you are going to have to do it now because I cannot hold this cup together anymore, I am going to pass out of this cup.  So if it be your will that you want this cup crucified, you better do it now, and Jesus left that conversation with His Father, and there were the guards of the Sanhedrin, saying, We are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, and He was crucified right after that. 

COMMENT: Is it that the cup was limiting Him, like it was like Hulk, He wanted to break out of the clothes...

PASTOR VITALE: It was dissolving.  It was a Star Trek episode where this foreign object comes into the Enterprise, and the Enterprise is just being converted, where that table existed, when the person who was in the area of the table, when they left and they came back, the table was literally transmuted, translated into a piece of furniture that would reflect an earlier age, everything was being converted.  We are talking about the transmutation of matter, that this table, the atoms, the person that has the power to do that, literally melts, would melt this solid object, break it down into its atomic or its subatomic particles, and use those same subatomic particles to form a new object.  The whole ship was being converted, nothing was being removed, nothing was being added.  The existing atoms were being reformed.  Jesus= physical body was dissolving because the glory inside of him was trying to reform it into something that would reflect God. 

I do not know why I do a lot of things, I cannot really tell you that I am tired sitting in this chair, the Lord just moved me over here.  It is a strange life, when the Lord moves you, you know, you do not know why you are doing it sometimes.  That is a very exciting revelation, that the blood, the blood representing the glorious life, not the glorified, He was not glorified yet, but the glorious life of Christ that was inside of him was doing its job, it was its natural instinct to form the cup or the shell, in its image.  The Scripture has to be understood with a spiritual mind.  This is where all of this error comes from, reading the Scripture with a carnal mind, the letter of the law is death.

COMMENT: Going on Xxxx=s question on the verses tonight, he was trying to think of anywhere where Jesus asked for something.  It is sort of confusing in a certain way because you know, you made the comment, Lord, you have to pray and ask God, give me patience, God give me this, so is it with the Spirit of Christ that we are asking, is that what makes the difference because David did say, Create in me a new heart, you know, He was asking God to do something, He was asking Him to create you know, where is the, is that just the, there is a perversion in all of that where you are asking like a baby and you are wanting God to do it all?  Because I did notice that you said, it probably answered my question, but you also, you were telling God, Give me this, give me patience, and then you said afterwards, but you have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get that patience, and maybe that is the difference, is that right or?

PASTOR VITALE: It is Christ in us asking the Lord for the power to do it.  We have to do it, this is a very, very subtle truth, we have to do it, but we cannot do it unless He gives us the power to do it.

COMMENT: Where I was coming from also, I was thinking of Jesus, you know, David came to mind, but David was not a son of God in full stature, Jesus was, and I was thinking of myself, I cannot condemn myself here, that was what I was thinking as I was rationalizing this, as it was going through my mind, because we are still children, coming into sonship with Christ rising up in us, so there is nothing wrong when we pray, I need you, as we are continuing to ascend, but eventually when we get to that place to where Jesus was of full stature, you know, it will not be like anymore, it will not be like a child, a child is selfish, Xxxxx is selfish, our kids are selfish, they ask, they need, they want all of these different things.

Like you were saying earlier in the message, when you grow up and become a son, a full grown son, then you ascend into that world of Father, and you have grown up conversations, you know, you are not asking anymore, you do not need anymore, because you know how to do things on your own, you have learned through the childhood experiences.  It is like the Bar Mitzvah of a thirteen year old on up to where you get to keep the keys to the actual shop, but you have to start at the very bottom, you have to first learn how to run the business, and so you ask a lot of questions on how you do this, and how you do that, til finally you are given the keys and you are able to do it on your own.  That is kind of what was going through my mind is eventually, I continue to ask for things, and the Lord understands that, and I cannot be condemned in that, but eventually it is going to come to a place, I was kind of looking at it from that stand point, and then I was also looking at it from the conclusion stand point of being in full stature, where we will not need to be asking anymore.  That is the kind of conversation I was having as I was driving to pick her up this morning, so that is where I asked that question of, is there anywhere where Jesus was like that.

PASTOR VITALE: I said the Scripture where it says He withdrew in to a high place or a lonely place...

COMMENT: Where He went into the wilderness.

PASTOR VITALE:   Yes, so we do not really know what He was talking to the Father about.  I believe, and I do not have any foundation for this, but I believe that when you are an adult child, you still go to your Father for counsel, because you recognize that your Father has lived many more years than you and had many more experiences that you have not had, but there is a big difference between saying, Jesus help me, and well Lord, how do you, how am I going to accomplish this, how do you think I should go about it, what do you think I should do?  I am sort of in and out you know, I am asking the Lord for a lot less help these days, but when the going gets really rough, I am crying, Jesus help me.  

I do not want anybody here thinking that they should feel bad or because they are still crying out help me, help me, because I cried out, help me, help me for years, and you will hear on a lot of my messages, the best prayer you could pray, is help, you know if you are really in trouble, that is the prayer, a one word prayer, so nobody here should feel that they cannot do that, if we are going to ask for help less, it should be a natural outgrowth of our maturity, and if it is not natural, if our heart feels that we need help, we should be able to ask for help. 

We should be transparent before the Lord, all of this manipulation that you find in our humanity, it is offensive to God, He just wants your honesty, if you need help, He will give you help, if you need help, ask for it, and as you continue to grow, you will need it less and less, we were talking earlier today about nursing our children, how they are supposed to wean themselves as a natural outgrowth, my daughter did not, you know, I had to, she wanted to keep on going, but most children will naturally wean themselves as they mature and they become more and more independent, they need less and less, and at that point it is not the nutrition anymore, the mother=s milk is not the nutrition anymore, it is the closeness and the feeling of safety of being that close the mother, so it is a weaning process from the father.

He will always be with us, see we are to carry out His will, and we cannot carry out His will unless we know what His will is.  I was doing a study in the Scripture today, it was in 1 Kings and I cannot quote the exact Scripture to you but this whole principle just really jumped out at me that Jehovah spoke to Solomon and He said, Solomon, this is what I am going to give you, and in the next verse it says, and God did it, God meaning Elohim, you see Jehovah is the will of God, the decision, the wisdom of God, and He said, This is what I am going to give you and then Elohim did it, Elohim is the dynamic aspect of God, and Jehovah is the static aspect, He is not active, He is reason, okay, and then Elohim goes out and does it. 

We are from that point of view, we are a manifestation of Elohim, we do the will of the Father, we bring to pass the will of the Father.  We are more than that, Christ, Christ in us is both a manifestation of both Jehovah and Elohim, we have the, we are receiving the ability in power to bring to pass the will of the Father, but we are also receiving the mind and knowledge of the will of God, and the wisdom of how to bring that will to pass, and then we have the power to do it, we have both the exousia, the authority of God, and the dunamis, the raw power of God, we have both, and we are in training to use it wisely and for God=s purposes, to use in any other way is sin.  It is very exciting to know the will of God, I love to know the will of God.

I ask Him, to know how God=s mind works is very, He does not have a mind you know, to know how God=s reasoning works, I do not even know if that is an accurate expression of it, of who He is, you know, He is so beyond our ability to comprehend Him, but I know that He has a will, that God has a will.  It is so interesting to me to see, well I am going to say how He thinks, that is not completely accurate, but I do not know how else to say it, I see things happening, I see spiritual things happening, and sometimes I will project as to how this is going to turn out, if I have had any experience here in my computer, you know, that I can draw upon, any past experience where I saw something similar, I will say, Well based on my past experience, I expect this will turn out such and such a way. 

Then sometimes I look at a situation and I say, I have absolutely no experience whatsoever with such and such a situation, I would really like to see how God deals with this.  Then when I see how God deals with it, it goes into my computer, and I become more and more capable of making decisions in the same reasoning that God will make the decision, because we are supposed to judge angels.  We are the judges of the world, we are just still in our childhood, and we need to understand that judgment is the mercy of God, judgment brings deliverance. 

This is what judgment means, I do not see this understanding in the church, Solomon judged the people.  In those days, there was no court of law, they went before the king, and in Egypt they went before the Pharaoh, they brought their petitions, their problems to the authority to decide who was right, who was wrong, and what the solution would be.  That is what we are being raised up to do, because the courts are failing, it is getting harder and harder to get justice in the courts, and the sons of God are a higher source of justice than the courts. 

What does that mean?  That means that most likely our prayers and the will of the Father being, that righteous judgment should be done, being manifested through us will influence judges and juries, and prosecutors.  We are intended to influence politics, do you know that, we are intended to influence politics.  God sets up kings and brings down kings, He chooses who the leader would be based upon the will of the people.  Listen to this, it is really important, if you live in a country like this country which is sliding backwards daily, and the moral fiber of the nation is deteriorating daily, people are voting for candidates because of their own pocket book, we are supposed to be voting based on the man=s moral ability as we can see it to do righteousness.  You cannot prosper financially if you have an unrighteous man in the top office. 

The most important thing is that we have righteous people in government that honor God and then you can hope that your life and the life of your family will prosper.  To vote for a candidate because he is in favor of a particular bill, that will enrich you personally, is a personal and a spiritual disaster, if you have done that, and you are hearing my voice, you need to repent, there is a very important election coming up, and every responsible Christian needs to be petitioning the Lord, to find out the Lord=s choice of a candidate, and to register and vote for that candidate. 

This is how the Lord chooses, this is how the Lord sets up kings and brings down kings, He does it through His people.  There is more coming, just a minute, let us wait on the Spirit.  How did I get on this subject, what were we talking about anybody? 

COMMENT:  With the petitioning the Pharaoh, and etc. 

PASTOR VITALE:  Yes, okay I was telling you that this is what we are called to do.  You know the Scripture says that Lot sat in the gate of Sodom, do you know what that means?  Absalom sat in the gate judging the people.  I use to think that it meant that they sat in the entranceway to the city, I did not know why they would be sitting there but that is what I thought that it meant, it does not mean that, it means that people went to these men for righteous judgment, and it is like judge Judy, do you get judge Judy here.

COMMENT: In Minnesota you mean?

PASTOR VITALE: I keep calling it Wisconsin, I wonder what that means? I am really sorry about that.

COMMENT: We are only about 20 miles away from Wisconsin.

PASTOR VITALE: Okay, judge Judy, like she is beyond the natural court system, people go to her and ask for righteous judgment, and she really tells them off, she tells them off in a way that I do not think a normal judge would tell people off, she gets involved in the personalities of the conflict.  That is what you are called to do.  We are called to be the ideal manifestation of the court system which is in particular the jury system, which is failing, we are called to listen to both sides, and not just see paper evidence, but to look at the heart of the person, to look at the spirit of the person, and hear from the great judge above, because if Christ is in you, you have the vehicle that will bring the source of all righteous judgment into this situation.  The court system works, not a hundred percent but it use to work a lot better than it is working now because people feared God, judges that sat in a court room, a lot of them, not all of them, they feared God.

I have heard of judges being in prayer all night that they should bring forth the judgment of the Lord, but this country is turning away from God, and this means that people that are in a court situation, have and less opportunity of expecting and hoping for justice.  There is corruption everywhere.

COMMENT: In Washington D.C. there is a picture of the first congress, all of them are on their knees or praying. 

COMMENT: Yes, they had to be Christians.

COMMENT: The first congress, the men were on their knees before God, that is the picture depicts that, we are a long way from that.

PASTOR VITALE: The country is being sold, the country is being sold and they are raising up mosques all over.  I keep thinking the same thing is happening that happened to Israel, in Israel, other nations moved into the territory and occupied the land, Israel completely disappeared.  But I do believe that the Lord will interfere, America is on a down slide, sliding backward, we have a lot of preachers prophesying her demise.  I do not know how far down we are going to slip, but I really am convinced that the Lord has told me that He will intervene before we go down completely, and He will intervene for His own name=s sake, not for us, but because He intends to save humanity.

We are His property, we belong to Him, and He intends to take us back.  The United States is the most qualified country for Him to move through because of the democratic form of government that we have.  It is difficult to work through a dictatorship where the people who are serving Him are jailed and tortured.  He can work through a democracy, so this country, the Lord has an investment in this country, He raised up this country for His own purpose.  God does something for His own purpose and anybody involved gets blessed.  This country is the most blessed country in the history of humanity, but the Lord did not do this for us just because we are cute.  He has a plan, in this country, and the freedom that we have in this country and the prosperity of this country, the computers and the books and the recording equipment, everything that we have to promote the gospel, look at how we found each other through the internet, all of this, what is happening right now is the Lord=s reason for raising up this country, that is a part of His plan to save mankind and to restore mankind to itself.

I do not think He is about to let this nation go down and slide back to sea, because if He does not intervene that is what is going to happen.  The world is really in crisis right now, just like Jesus said, Do not be afraid, He said, Look up because your redemption draweth nigh, the whole world is rockin= and rollin=, the country is being attacked from within, the people, large numbers of the citizenry of this nation do not know which end is up, and they are so filled with rebellion themselves, they are just going with the flow, they do not what they are talking about, in many instances, they are not educated, they do not understand, they do not have the facts, they are going by their emotions, and they are being completely manipulated, large numbers of people in this country are being manipulated, and their ability to judge righteous judgment is dissolving. 

Our whole jury system is based upon a belief that the men and women sitting in the jury box, are, can hear from God, that they are vessels that can hear from God, democracy is a Christian phenomenon, it is a Christian phenomenon.  I understand that there is a, in Turkey, which is Muslim, Turkey is Muslim, but from what I understand it is a secular Islam there, it is all secular, and democracy seems to be working there, I do not know what to tell you about that, why it is working, but basically speaking democracy is a Christian phenomenon, see I do not know how well it is working in Turkey you know.

COMMENT: Is Turkey the basis of Turkey is it founded in Scripture? 

PASTOR VITALE: I do not know the answer to that question.

COMMENT: Yes, some of the churches that Paul was at, were in Turkey.  I think in Revelation as well, some of the churches were in Turkey. 

PASTOR VITALE: Well that is very interesting, so that would say to me is that the Lord is permitting this freedom and democracy there because He intends to take it back to Christianity.  That is a very interesting observation.

Before King Saul, God ruled through every individual, God wants to be the king of each one of us, each of us is a world and Christ in us is supposed to be the king of our world.  Remember Israel wanted a king, God gave Israel Saul by default, He did not want to give them a king, He wanted to be the king of the individual.  When every individual is controlled by God, you do not need an authority over you, you do not need laws, rules or regulations because the laws are internalized within you and you automatically do the right thing.  Israel had that, but they wanted a king like other nations, and Israel fell.  They did not have understanding, Israel fell because they did not have understanding, salvation could have been completed in Israel, but it did not come to pass, they did not bring forth the Christ child, they brought forth wind, and the Lord moved on.

COMMENT: What do you believe the Scripture means where it says, Do not resist evil, I have always wondered what that meant and never got a satisfactory answer.

PASTOR VITALE: Well there are certain kinds of evil that you do not resist, for example.  If you are walking down the street and a man points a gun at you, and he said, Give me your wallet or I am going to kill you, you should give the man your wallet.  From another point of view, there are some people that are just encourageable, and they are not reasonable, so if you have somebody in your life whoever it might be, a neighbor, friend, if you see that they are going to fight to the death, even though you know they are wrong, you are supposed to walk away and leave it in God=s hands, no good thing can come out of it.

COMMENT: What comes to my mind is, if the Lord Jesus came to us right now, we would die, and so we need evil, we need Satan, he is in our spiritual blood right now, and so we cannot resist that evil, I mean we have to allow that blood to flow in us, but continue to dissolve and transmute into the blood of Christ, little by little, because we cannot get the whole Spirit of the Lord.

PASTOR VITALE: I have never thought of it that way but I could see that, when we do not have the power right now to completely dispel the evil within us, we have to live with it.  You know this is one of the hardest things and I know a lot of people with this problem, once the Lord reveals a sin in you, the natural inclination is, Well get out of here, I want it stamped out, but it does not work that way.  We have to live with it for a season knowing that we are actually capable of envying, and it is in there, and I see in my brain, and every time it rises up, I have to smack it and burn it at the stake, and chop it, and bless the person that, that envy was manifested towards, but the more the pharisitical the person is, and I do not mean that as an insult, the more you have been raised in the church world, and the more you have a vision of yourself that you are this really good person, to actually see evil, to see envy in yourself is a very painful thing, it is just does not go right away, you have to live with it, war against it, fight it, curse it, keep a guard on it, do not let it out.

But of course that would be resisting, that would be resisting evil but Xxxx=s points of view is, do not resist the evil that this is your condition, you cannot change it, or it is happening slowly, so you have to live, I guess that was my point, you have to live with that evil, and all that you can do is restrain it, you cannot knock it out, so I guess you meant something like that.

COMMENT: I had a question about, like I was telling you earlier about a guy that kept pushing the trinity on me, we it was somebody I work with, and until the last day I worked there he was still trying to put it into my head, and he brought it up over lunch, and I was just praying, and I said, I really want to block all of this that he has to say to me, because I do not believe it and I prayed about it, and he told me that it is not right and it is not true, and it came out, and I said, Well you believe in different realms, you know different levels of, and he said, You know I have always wanted to look through and just study and you know go into the different books where it says the Lord says and the Lord says that, in the Old Testament, and then go into the New Testament, and just really study and try to figure out what Jesus Christ, and Christ Jesus, and the different things match.  I said, just to see, and He said, Well I have not really done that.  I said, Oh, well did you ever think that maybe it is possible that each one of them are from a different level of consciousness in God.  He said, Well I never really looked at it that way either, and that was the last we have ever talked or said anything about it, and I do not know if that was exactly true on my part or not, I do not know if that is the right interpretation of what Christ Jesus, Jesus Christ...

PASTOR VITALE: I usually just ignore people like that, but sometimes if the Lord leads you, people have to shown up to themselves to see how foolish they are.

COMMENT: They were saying that the trinity is true, and all of a sudden, Well I never studied it.

COMMENT: Well he was the one that laid the paper out, I was told, I was told, I was told, I was told.

PASTOR VITALE: Exactly.  When I first came to the Lord, I was dying, and I knew that the Lord sent me to the church that He sent me to, and it was a church where they cast out demons, and I had demons cast out of me, and they were still in my life, but in any event, a woman, the church had a bad reputation because of the churches in the area could not believe that a Christian could have a demon.  I was approached by a traditional Christian, and she said to me, You should not go to that church.  I was very naive, I was a new Christian, I was not raised in the church, but I knew that God sent me to that church, but I have always been a reasonable person, you are telling me not to go there, I am asking you why?  Why should I not go there?  She said to me, I do not know why you should not go there, you should go talk to my pastor about it.  I said, I do not think I want to go talk to your pastor about it, I am getting help in that church, I know that I am getting help in that church, and if you do not know why I should not be going there, what are you telling me not to go there for?    They just came out of the woodwork, people came out of the woodwork telling me not to go to that church, and that the Lord saved my life.  If that church was not there, He could have saved my life any one of a multiple ways that He wanted to, but that was how He chose to save my life.

COMMENT: It is interesting because as I am listening to this, thinking of all of the experiences that happened in the past, the carnal mind cannot rationalize spiritual things, I mean when you begin to press just questions, well why?  Well what about this, if you rationalize, the carnal mind begins to break down, and then of course the pride goes up and gets angry and it blows up, and you know, but it is, it begins, the wisdom of God brings forth the foolishness within man.

PASTOR VITALE: Yes, the foolishness of man.  Another testimony that I had is that my brother-in-law, my sister=s husband was extremely upset with me when he heard that I believed in Jesus Christ, and he cornered me one day, I was visiting there, she does not live there anymore, but she was a good distance and whenever I went, I would be sleeping over, so I was sleeping over, and it was late in the evening, and all that I remember was sitting there in the kitchen, and my brother-in-law and my sister cornered me, he was a big burly guy, really big guy with a big loud booming voice, and very aggressive guy, he as an IRS special agent, and he just had that authority on him you know, and I cannot remember what he was saying to me, but he was just pounding me, and I remember sitting there and just praying silently and saying, Jesus, What do I do, what do I say to this man?  To this day, I cannot remember what he said, I cannot remember what I said, but when he finally stopped yelling, I had one short brief sentence to say, do not remember what it was, and he just looked at me, turned around and walked away. 

I thought he was going to the bathroom, I am waiting for him to come back, he went to the bedroom and he went to sleep.  He was yelling, he had this big booming voice, he could have scared anybody, you would not have wanted to met him in a dark alley, he use to go after the mafia, that was his job, and he just, that one little thing that the Lord gave me to say, just shut the lion=s mouth, and he just walked away, and went to sleep, did not say goodnight, did not say anything, just left. 

We have to, I think the Scriptural term is make them ashamed, not that we want to shame them like a human kind of shame, but it is a shame that makes them, they become ashamed when they realize that they do not know what they are talking about, they become ashamed when they realize that they are making a fool out of themselves, and again, I am saying, we have to make them ashamed, but I do not mean we have to humiliate people, that is not what I mean.   We have to make them realize that they are just not making any sense, and we do that by reasoning with them and by asking them questions that make them think even though they do not want to think, why do you think that, why are you doing that? 

The Lord has to put the questions in your heart, but I know for the longest time, and I know a lot of Christians, they run from people that are aggressive like that, sometimes Jehovah=s witnesses are very aggressive like that, and there are a lot of Christians that are very aggressive like that, but we have to stop running from them, and ask them these questions that will shut them, not only shut their mouths, but give them the seed of life.

We are the sons of God, we are supposed to be giving out the seeds of life.  First we have to be confident in ourselves, and we get that confidence by learning the word of God and learning the truth, so that we can calmly respond to them, and help them, because the situation in the world today is that the children think that they are the adults.  We are adults, compared to anyone, anyone out there, any one of you here today probably, even Xxxx just by sitting here, how old is he?  In his eleven year old mind, whatever he has comprehended, he probably knows more than the people in the church world today. 

That makes us the spiritual elders and that makes them the spiritual children.  The children think they are the adults, and that is typical of the carnal mind, confusion, they are all confused, they do not know who they are, and they have it backwards, they are so sure that they are Christ, that when they see Christ in us, they pronounce us a counterfeit.  The Lord wants to develop us to not be threatened by that, but to go right into the battle and save them from themselves.

He is not sending you before you are ready, He is just giving you a vision of what He is raising us up to do, that does not mean you have to go out and save the world, but when someone comes at you, that is your opportunity, when someone is coming at you, then you know that you should be saying, Lord, what can I do to help this person, this person that is attacking me, this person that is lying about me, this person that is thinking evil about me, how do I help them.

COMMENT: Sometimes help means saying nothing.

PASTOR VITALE: Sometimes help means saying nothing, sometimes help means saying a silent prayer, rebuking the witchcraft.  Sometimes, and this again would be an answer to Xxxx=s question, sometimes you are up against an evil that should be resisted, someone is so determined and focused and there is no talking to them, we should not be striving with them, but we should be praying silently and breaking their curses, and asking the Lord to help them.

COMMENT: To grant them mercy?

PASTOR VITALE: To recognize that they are overtaken, and that they are in trouble, they are in trouble.  What are you willing to do for them Lord?  That is one of my favorite prayers, that is actually at this point, my favorite prayer, Lord this is the situation, I have done all that I can do, what are you willing to do?  What are you willing to do, and what is my part in it.  You need to hear from God, there is not always something to do. 

I gave Xxxx this testimony earlier just by way of example, my sister is a very sick woman, we have very, very heavy curses on our family, I started to die at ten years old, I have a sister who died in her forties, and my sister that is alive today has been suffering from sickness, it is like she is that woman in the Scripture that spent her whole substance on doctors and she still was not healed.  Of course my testimony has not helped her any, she does not believe in God, she does not believe He can heal, she does not believe in God. 

I prayed for her, I more or less have given her over to God, she just suffers terribly, and she recently had some problems with low blood pressure, on top of all of her other infirmities, she on dialysis, God help her, she is really a mess, but she had some quality of life, she has friends, she would play cards, and go out, but this low blood pressure and it destroyed every aspect of quality of life that she had, she would stand up and she would be dizzy, she could not walk, she has aides living with her around the clock, because she fell out of bed and hurt herself, she is not in very good condition at all. 

After years of my testimonies, nothing has helped her, so when I saw her deteriorate to this point, I really thought she was going to die, but I went before the Lord, and I said, Lord, would you have mercy on my sister, what if anything are you willing to do for her, and what if anything is my part?  And he helped her, He completely bypassed me, I will give you the story. 

She was in the hospital, she had surgery not too long ago, and the doctors gave her opium, a small amounts of opium for her low blood pressure, which I never heard of, but that is what they gave her.  When she went home, they gave her a prescription for opium, and the pharmacists that she had to, it was a chain pharmacy, said to her, they do not make these pills anymore, and the doctor said, Okay, they do not make these pills anymore.  She cannot stand up, she cannot get up without falling down.  Within I think less than a week that I prayed that prayer, what are you willing to have mercy on my sister, she has rejected you her whole life, I have been right in her face, you saved my life, you healed me, and it has not phased her, she does not deserve anything, but I am asking if you are willing to do it, to have mercy on her, what are you willing to do?  Well He moved upon my niece, her daughter, and she went on the internet and found the opium, it is not true that they do not make it anymore, they got her the opium, and she is on her feet and she is walking, and she has some quality of life, she is still a very sick woman, but she has some quality of life.  That is what He did for her, and I did not even have to do anything.  He moved on my niece to do it.

The more we can get ourselves out of it, we have to get out of our own way, He is all that there is.  If you have problem that appears to be unresolvable, you should want to know what the Lord is willing to do.

COMMENT: It is so strange that He would opium.  I can hear the church just screaming over something like that.

PASTOR VITALE: That was the medical solution.

COMMENT: What did the prayer do in the spirit?

PASTOR VITALE: It moved on my niece to not accept the doctor and the pharmacists not accept them pronouncing it that you cannot, you can only get opium in the hospital.

COMMENT: So it stirred and steered the energy.

PASTOR VITALE: No, I am sorry, she was not even looking for it, she was doing something else on the internet and she found it.  I maintain over and over again, every time I try to anticipate how the Lord will deliver me, or somebody, I could have ten options, and He does option eleven.

COMMENT:   [Laughing].

PASTOR VITALE: He is a root out of dry ground, so I have got this revelation so strong, I do not even want to try to solve my own problems.  That is my prayer, even when one of you call me for prayer.  My prayer is, after I hang up the phone usually, What are you willing to do for them?   That is my prayer.  It is all about Him, it is Him.

COMMENT: So it is the energy of that humility, the energy to open ears, it is the energy of surrender that goes out.

PASTOR VITALE: All of that plus recognition, He wants to be honored, as we read in the book of Revelation, You oh God, you alone are worthy, of honor, and there is about nine things that they say in that Scripture verse, you alone are worthy.  When we are young Christians the Lord lets us think that we are important you know, and lets us pray and bind and all, but I am telling you, my prayers, I will pray for anybody that asks me to pray for them, anybody that asks me, I will pray for you, okay, but you do not really want my prayers, you want to contact Him.  I am the point of contact you know, so I will pray for you and lots of times He honors my prayers.

It all depends on what your problem is, if you have an infirmity, I will rebuke it, you know, and sometimes He honors my prayers, but any power that I have is passive power, it is His power, and He taught me this very clearly.  I use to be in a deliverance church, I cast out demons, I was in the church every time the door was open, so I was a minimum of three or four times a week and sometimes it was five, and I had a reputation in that church, I was a demon chaser, you know, and we would see, after the pastor preached, we would break up into groups and you would see little groups of people, one person being delivered at least two people working on the, some more violent, some manifestations were more violent than others, some people kicking, screaming, yelling, some people vomiting, sometimes demons come up out of your digestive track, and it looked like a circus, if you walked in and you did not know what it was, it looked like a circus.

I had a reputation, I would walk over, to anyone of these little groups, and the person being delivered would start screaming, get her away from me, I had an anointing to cast out demons.  Then one day, I said, Come out, and the demon did not come out.  I said, Oh, a bad night.  The next time I was in church, I said, Come out, and the demon did not come out, I started to get nervous, I completely lost my anointing to cast out demons, and said, Lord, what happened?  And He said, You never had any anointing, it was me the whole time.  Did you ever see a picture of a little kid, pushing their baby sister=s baby carriage, and they think they are doing it, and Momma is behind you know pushing it, He said, You never had any power to cast out demons, and then to complete the humiliation, which was lined up for me to break my pride, He sent me to Africa with a team of evangelists that were all casting out demons, I was with a team of five other evangelists, we went out in to the crowd at the instructions of the head evangelist, and they were laying hands on people and there were manifestations, people screaming and yelling and demons coming out, nothing, I said, Lord, I cannot stand the humiliation, I was like a complete failure, nobody is manifesting when I lay hands on them.  He had mercy on me, and He let me go to the outskirts of the crowd, and I do not have that anointing back to this day. 

I think that if the Lord wanted me to cast out a demon, it would rise in me, but I have not cast out a demon to this day.  We do not have any power, not at this point, but I think that we will have power.  See if you read the Scripture, the Lord said, the Lord did not split the Red Sea, the Lord said to Moses, Split the Red Sea.  Moses had power, Jesus had power, Elijah had power.  I hope that I am going to grow into that kind of power, but I do not have it today, and I know that I do not have it today, because if I had today, I would heal Xxxx=s eyes.  I do not have it.

COMMENT: When you first came out, I remember, you cast out spirits on you, you had deliverance did you not? 

COMMENT: Oh absolutely.

PASTOR VITALE: That is right.

COMMENT: I could not, I would not be here if I did not have some kind of deliverance.

PASTOR VITALE: Oh, okay, so I take that back, well that is what I said, if the Lord wanted to raise me up to do it.

COMMENT: It was not any visible manifestation.

PASTOR VITALE: There was any physical manifestations.

COMMENT: I remember Xxxx, you know belching a lot.

PASTOR VITALE: Really got deliverance, yes.  I am talking about like a major manifestation.

COMMENT: Like on the floor kicking and screaming.

COMMENT: Well I think you asked Xxxx if he manifests can you handle him. 

PASTOR VITALE: Yes, because I did not know what would happen, so I guess I did do it, I was just hoping that God would back me up, because I had not done it in years, to tell you the truth.

COMMENT: Tell them about the time Sheila with Xxxx.

PASTOR VITALE: Yes, I guess we have done it maybe once or twice over the years, so Xxxx she was a member of our group in New York, and at the time I lived in a different location than where I am now, and it was garden apartment, and when you opened the door, the first thing that you saw was a flight of steps, and then the apartment was upstairs.  We were praying for her, and again, we had not seen a manifestation in the ministry in years and years and years, and a whole group of us were standing around and praying for her, and her arm just went like that, and I knew what that meant, I knew that, that meant major manifestation coming, we had not seen it in years, and before I could say grab her, Xxxx had long hair at the time, she had Xxxx=s and somebody=s else=s, she bit Xxxx, she was slashing, screaming, it was the summer time, the windows were open, we had her on the floor, and I am holding on to her leg, and all of a sudden I am looking on these steps, you see, and I see something walking up my steps very slowly, it is a policeman=s cap, someone called the police, and the door was open, because I had a meeting that night, so the door was open, so they walk in with their hands on their guns, and we are laying on the floor holding this woman down.

We let go, I said to everybody let go, let go, they did not know what they were going to find, and I had a long hallway with bedrooms, and the cops said, can I check your bedrooms, and I said, Sure, there is nobody in there.  Then when he could not find anybody, he called me into the kitchen, she is laying like a corpse on the floor.  I knew what I had to do to wake her up, but I did not want to do it in front of the cops.  She is laying like a corpse on the floor, they are looking at her, you know, they call emergency services, and he gets me in the kitchen and says, What is going on?   I said, Well we are casting out a demon.

COMMENT: Oh, man. 

PASTOR VITALE: So he says to me, What is wrong with her?   

COMMENT: Then we asked the Lord, Please give us a house with nobody around.

PASTOR VITALE: I said, Well I can wake her up. He says, Go ahead and do it, so we had to do it, and I leaned over to the corpse and said, Let go of her you wicked demon, let her go and let her wake up.  She opened her eyes and she stood up, she saw all of the cops standing around her, and the ambulance came and the emergency services came, and she had to submit to the examination, and they are having her walk, and her eyes are all dilated, and her legs are all wobbling and they wanted her to go the hospital, and said to her, What happened to you?  She said, I manifested.  What happened to you?  I manifested, and I do not want to go to the hospital.

COMMENT: [people laughing].

PASTOR VITALE: When I say I never, even when I did, even what I did for Jesse, it just was not the same anointing that I held when I was in that church, that I would just walk over and they would start screaming.  I can say it, because I have nothing to be proud of, it was not me, as I found out, it was taken away from me, it was never me.  Actually I think Xxxxx and Xxxxx are the only two experiences that I had, and that was like twenty years ago, I lost anointing twenty years ago. 

COMMENT: Is that part of the imputed anointing? 

PASTOR VITALE: The imputed, yeah.

COMMENT: Even with Xxxx was that an imputed situation.

PASTOR VITALE: No, actually, well the power that I had in that church was imputed, imputed means loaned, it was loaned to me, it did not come from within me. When power comes from within you, nobody can take it away from you.

COMMENT: And that is where we are going.

PASTOR VITALE: That is where we are headed.

COMMENT: Yeah, that is where we are headed.

PASTOR VITALE: That is what Moses and Elijah had, but we do not have it yet, I do not know anybody that has it yet.

COMMENT: But that is the Holy Spirit that is loaned to you or the power comes from that, right?  To do what you did, but that is not the route we are going now, we are doing Jesus Christ from within us.

PASTOR VITALE: I do not have the words to explain the difference to you between what with Xxxx and Xxxx but it just was not the same thing, as belonging to a deliverance church where you knew that every time you walked in there, there was going to be deliverance and you were going to be casting out demons, and that anointing was just flowing in you, you know, and it just was not the same thing for you, or Xxxx.  Basically what I have to say is that the occasion arose, Xxxx, and Xxxx and I did what needed to be done because I was there, I am not explaining it all, but it was not the same.

COMMENT: The coolest thing to me when we start moving in the inward Christ in us, rises up, is that it is going to be done through righteousness, so our sin nature is going to be dealt with, so that you can speak to people with a clean heart, and you are not speaking out of your sin filled subconscious mind, that, that is going to be taken care of, and you can speak directly to the hearts because you can see it, because you have also overcome it in your own life.  That is just so cool.

PASTOR VITALE: Exactly.  I am glad you brought up that point because I wanted to tell you that, you must have read it in one of my messages, I did not make that point, but Xxxx is absolutely right, that Jesus cast out demons out of his righteousness, all of those demons that I cast out all of those years, it was without repentance, I had that ability without repentance.  I had that power why?  Because He wanted those people delivered, it had nothing to do with me whatsoever, He wanted the people delivered, but this righteous structure that is being built in us, as a component of that righteousness, is the ability to heal and cast out demons. 

It is a component of that righteousness, we will own it, it is the same principle as I told you about the doctrine, you cannot just read and repeat to someone else, you have to eat it, understand it, digest it, and really believe it and live it, and nobody can take it away from you.  If I tell you that the trinity is not a true doctrine, and you take my word for it, because you trust me as a teacher, somebody some day, if you believe in the trinity because I tell you it is a false doctrine, but you do not seek it out for yourself, you do not pray about it, you do not study it, you just take my word for it, you are in danger of somebody changing your mind, because you do not own it, you see. 

You have to understand why you believe what you believe, and then once you get it, if you study it and you pray about it, and you believe that the Lord has told you, you believe in your spirit that, that is not a true doctrine, nobody can take that away from you.  Even if you do not have an answer to their question, I have been in a situation like that, people have challenged me to a point where I have had to say to them, I cannot answer your question, but the Lord told me it is true, and only the Lord can tell me that I am wrong.  You have to own it.

COMMENT: It is like that passage, Study to show yourself approved, you know I think of the word approved, you proving whether it is right or wrong by studying, you studying by the spirit of revelation, you mentioned that verse in your last Kabbalah message about the testimony of Jesus, is given through the spirit of prophecy, and it brings me back to what we were talking about yesterday, just about the word and the vowels being added to the words, and getting back to the letters and everything, but to look at Jesus from the church angle, there is no spirit of prophecy with it, it is all coming from a carnal understanding of looking at Jesus in the natural realm.

PASTOR VITALE: And they make Him in their own image, they make Him into a God that is begging God to get Him off of the cross.

COMMENT: There is a passage where Jesus says that, He who eats and drinks of me will have eternal life, and these disciples that had been following for how many years, those few years there, walked away, and He said, My words are spirit, my words are spirit, and those that have to know me have to know me in spirit, you know what I am saying is spirit, that comes right back to the spirit of prophecy, it all deals with the spiritual aspect of Jesus, and that is what He said worship Him in spirit and in truth, there is nothing there of the literal fleshly realm.  I try to think as we continue to ascend in the spirit, well eventually we are going to get to the letters, this is kind of how, you have to get it for yourself, you have to understand it for yourself.  I keep coming back to that message that you spoke about Adam Kadmon, the introduction of Adam Kadmon, when you say, you get back to the letters, it is like me coming to Xxxx and going, c a b l n r p c y l, it he is not going to understand anything I say, unless He has got my spirit in him to be able to get the understanding of it.

COMMENT: Like if that was a written code or something, you would have to have the code, which would be the spirit, right?

COMMENT: Well you have to have a spirit of revelation in you, you have to have the spirit in you to be able to understand, a spirit of revelation.

PASTOR VITALE: Absolutely.

COMMENT: He would have to have my spirit in him to be able to understand what I was saying to him.  That is that joining and being one in the spirit.

PASTOR VITALE: It is very hard for the carnal mind to understand that words written in English, our native language, need to be interpreted or understood, and they do not understand that they are interpreted, there is so much in the King James translation that five different people could see it five different ways, it is just not that clear, it is not.  We should want to understand what the writer intended when he wrote it.  From that point of view, we need the spirit of revelation, we need to understand it as the Lord Jesus understands it.

COMMENT: It is too easy to just look at it in your carnal mind, understanding it in the literal sense, and say, Okay this is how it is.  It is just so easy to do that.

PASTOR VITALE: Like the Scripture talks about the man of sin, who is the man of sin?  Everybody has their own idea, everybody has their own opinion who the man of sin is, and nobody has a right, because we are the man of sin, our old man, the natural man is the man of sin. 

COMMENT: I want to ask you a question about, when we came into this, looking back at the progression of things, meeting Xxxx, the chiropractor, and the chiropractor was my chiropractor for many years, and I think that was a stepping stone to get to Xxxx, and eventually to get to you, and that Pentecostal thing that we went through which happened really quickly which now I understand was necessary, to contact the Holy Spirit. Do you think for, I think my children, we went out to Xxxx and Xxxx and I look at these people who have a measure of the Holy Spirit and in that case we discussed the anointing, and it just was not there, but you know there was something there, but there was no wisdom in it at all, and when you are in that, the first experience is that it is new and it is neat, but I just cannot imagine how the Lord is going to work it out, do you think like with my children, or young people coming into this ministry will come in and be able to receive the doctrine of Christ from a place where they are not even, I mean that is the point of contact, the initial point of contact and then they will receive a measure of the Holy Spirit, and be gifted.  You know what I am saying?  What the Pentecostal church experiences for a lack of a better way to describe it? 

PASTOR VITALE: I am going to answer your question with a testimony.  If you asked me this a year ago, I would have told you I do not know, but we have somebody in the ministry in New York right now who just came in a year ago, she never read the Bible, well she had to have heard some Bible stories, but she never was in a Baptist church, she never was in a Pentecostal church, she had no experience with God, but she had an intellectual desire for Him, and she is being discipled through the doctrine of Christ.  Let me try and explain this to you, Lord please help me find the words. 

I had to ask the Lord what was happening with her because I could not understand it, if you would meet her today, she really has a very different spirit than anybody here, she does not have the Holy Spirit, she does not, but she understands the doctrine of Christ.  When I sought the Lord and asked Him what was going on, He told me, that there is a certain category of people and I do not understand it at this time, but the Lord told me that it was a certain category of people that simply cannot respond to what is available in the church today, and we know that because the majority, there are so many people out there that cannot respond to the Holy Spirit anointing to the Baptist message, so they are not in God, but He said to me, There is a category of people out there that will respond to the doctrine of Christ initially on an intellectual level and the lord will take them from that level, it is a higher level, and at some point the Spirit is going to break forth on her, but it will not be the Holy Spirit, it is going to be the Spirit of Christ.

There are people, to put it another way, we come into this world with different levels of spirituality, different potentials to respond to God.  The measure of the Spirit that has been in the church to date has been directed towards people that can respond to Elohim, that can respond the raw power, but they cannot respond to the intellect of God.  This is the whole problem in the church today, they cannot respond or recognize or understand the message that comes out of the intellect of God, that is why they are opposing this message, but this woman for whatever reason, can comprehend the message of the intellect of God, but she has had no experiences, I keep telling her, I am waiting for the spirit to break forth on you.  

There is nothing coming out of heart, it is all up here, but she is getting it, and she loves God to the best of her ability, she loves God, she wants God, she wants to pursue Him, she goes to church, she attends the meetings, and she is going the best that she can, we are all waiting for the Spirit to break forth on her, and that is what the Lord told me, and He actually told me more, He said, she is in a condition of spiritual infancy, or spiritual fetal condition, but I should stop because I do not remember it well enough to explain it to you.  The bottom line is that she is coming a whole different way, and it is similar to what I was saying to somebody this morning or last night, it must have been Xxxx or Xxxxx last night, that the Lord has shown me that this message is going to reach a whole, and aside from the woman in the ministry that I am telling you about, a whole category of people that are out there into mysticism and occult spiritual philosophy in Africa.  We met someone who was into the Holy Grail movement, I had not ever heard of it before, there are all kinds of occult philosophy movements out there, that are anti-Christ, they leave Christ out of it and they leave the moral aspect out of it.  This man that we met that was in the Holy Grail movement, he had been a Pentecostal Christian, tongue talking Pentecostal Christian, but he was a deeply spiritual man, and his needs were just not being met in the Pentecostal church, so he went towards the spiritual philosophy of an anti-Christ message. 

This message, it is higher than the message in the church, and it is going to reach, now I know two categories of people that the anointing in the church today cannot draw, the people that are seeking spiritual philosophy like the Holy Grail, and this woman, who there is still no sign of the Spirit on her, and she has been with us a year, or a year and a half, she is committed, I do not know how long it is going to take, but I believe the spirit has to break forth in her.  Did I answer your question.

COMMENT: When you say the spirit break forth in her, do you mean that she is going to have that Holy Spirit experience?

PASTOR VITALE: I do not think it will the Holy Spirit, I think it will be the Spirit of Christ.

COMMENT: Will any gifting accompany that? 

PASTOR VITALE: No, because the Spirit of Christ comes out of Christ, so it will not be gifting, but it will be the characteristics of Christ, which will include healing, will include a lot of things that the Holy Spirit does, but the Holy Spirit is given without repentance. 

COMMENT: Oh, so that would be much higher?

PASTOR VITALE: Higher, higher, higher.

COMMENT: the giftings would be brought forth in righteousness.

PASTOR VITALE: But they would not be gifts, if they rise out of righteousness, they are not gifts anymore.

COMMENT: Yeah, I guess because a gift is...

PASTOR VITALE: Because the gifts are without repentance, but the healing that comes out of Christ arises out of righteousness.

COMMENT: So it would be a grafting.

PASTOR VITALE: Right, so Christ is being formed in her, Christ is being formed in somebody that does not have the Spirit, that is unheard of, it was unheard of to me before it started to happen.  There are people out there, now she tells me she wanted God for years but she could not respond to anything in the church, she was raised in the Catholic church, rejected that, and she could not respond to any aspect of God that she had been exposed to, she could not respond to it, but this she responded to, so she is getting it up here first.  When we get the Holy Spirit, we get it in our heart, the Holy Spirit comes into our heart.  She is starting up here. 

COMMENT: Does she have revelation? 

PASTOR VITALE: Amazingly so, she not only gets revelation but she gets words of knowledge, and the first time she had a word of knowledge, I seriously doubted that it was the Lord because she was not in God at all, just interested in the message, but she gets revelation, she gets understanding. 

COMMENT: Does she confess her sins?

PASTOR VITALE: Yes.

COMMENT: Awesome.

COMMENT: Wow, that is really different.

COMMENT: Is there any emotions?  No emotions? 

PASTOR VITALE: No not yet.

COMMENT: It is amazing, because I find that happening to me, it should be, it should happening to all of us as we continue to ascend in Christ, the Spirit of Christ, the carnal emotions begin to leave, and going back to the very first question that we talked about, about the needing and wanting and the child and so forth, does music exist in the

Spirit of Christ.

PASTOR VITALE: Does music exist?

COMMENT: Yes, in full stature?

PASTOR VITALE: I am not sure what you mean by exist, but I do know this, that the Scripture clearly says that the doctrine of Christ spiritual music.  I do not...

COMMENT: Is that the vibration though, if the music that we sing here, does that type of music, you know I think I got my own answer.  When I was, I went to Promise Keepers out in Washington D.C. with a million guys, there was a point where we were all in prayer, and I remember praying, and all of a sudden, the only way that I could describe it at that time was hearing a angelic singing, but I knew it was, the only way I could explain it was, it was all of creation, and it was a harmonious vibration, it was like a wave, and I knew it was music, but there was no music per say, it was just a vibration, and I said it was like hearing a zillion angels, and it just came out as a wave.  Is it possible that, that is the spiritual music that we will ascend in to, vibration.

PASTOR VITALE: I do not know.

COMMENT: There will not be anymore of this anymore because this music is just kind of emotions is it not?

PASTOR VITALE: This music brings the Holy Spirit in, and it is a very interesting question, I do not know the answer.  I think that the test would be, I am not sitting her judging whether or not you have the Spirit of Christ, I really cannot, you must have Christ you know to, I do not know at what point you would be playing by the Spirit of Christ, that is what I am trying to say.  That would be the test when, because Christ is swallowing up the Holy Ghost anointing, so I know that I very rarely speak in tongues anymore, very rarely, and the reason I do not speak in tongues, this is my understanding that I do not speak in tongues, is that tongues, and this phrase was coined by another preacher, tongues are spiritual baby talk, when we first get the spirit, but we do not have the understanding, and we want to cry out to our Father in heaven, we speak in tongues because we do not know how to talk to God, the baby Christ in us that was just awakened, does not know how to relate to God so He speaks in tongues.  I have a lot of understanding of what God wants to say to His people and to me, so everything that I say, every word that I speak that comes out of Christ in me is prophecy, prophecy is merely the word of the Lord.\

On very rare occasion, I do not, my intellect does not comprehend, you see, for the Lord to speak through me to you, I have to understand what He wants to tell you.  That is the difference between prophecy and the gift of prophecy.  The gift of prophecy is really channeling, and channeling is an occult term. You channel a spirit, the gift of prophecy is channeling, I yield my vocal chords to the Spirit, and the Spirit speaks through me completely by passes my understanding, comprehension, and will, I am a channel, it is called channeling, but the true prophecy is the speaking of the word of the Lord with understanding, and that is what I do to you, I have been prophesying to you all night. On the rare occasion that I speak in tongues is because the Lord wants to tell you all something, or wants to tell someone something and I do not have an understanding of what the Lord wants to tell them, so it comes out in tongues, and that happens very rarely.

I do not know the answer to your question, I would like to know the answer to your question, my opinion is that when you play, you are playing in the Holy Ghost, yet you must have the Spirit of Christ because I know Christ is in you, so I think I said all that to say this, that tongues are drying up in me, I would like to see what happens to you over the next year or so, I would like to see if the Holy Ghost does dry up in you, will you play by the Spirit of Christ, I do not know.

COMMENT: Because I basically have no desire to do this music, I noticed I do not play guitar anymore.

PASTOR VITALE: The music of Christ is really the word of God, you know you have the Song of Solomon, you have the Song of Moses, the Song of the higher realm is the doctrine.

COMMENT: Is music, is one thing to calm the carnal mind also, does it, spiritual music.

PASTOR VITALE: I am not saying it is bad.

COMMENT: No, but it does calm the carnal mind, is that correct.

PASTOR VITALE: Yes.

COMMENT: That is basically what I find myself, the reason I am doing it, not that I do not understand that form, but just, what I am basically doing is, I know that there are others here that need emotional healing, and I just, I do the music, but I have no desire to actually do it, but I feel pressed that I should probably do it.

PASTOR VITALE: I enjoy it, it definitely makes me feel good, and you are right, the music plays to your emotions, the preaching of the doctrine of Christ plays to your spirits.  That is a very interesting question, very interesting.  Do you understand what I said about your children, that they are probably getting it actually first.

COMMENT: I do, I just really am having a hard time with the Holy Spirit thing since it passed, there was feeling to it, and then it went, now I am repulsed by all of the people gathering around those people who are really gifted in a big way but they have no wisdom and they were all like they really got something, you know what I mean?  Everywhere they were saying that Christ was just oozing all over, it is gifting, they do not have any wisdom, you know, so I have a hard time with that, and I just think, I just wanted to get insight on what the Lord might do.

PASTOR VITALE: That would be my guess, I do not know for sure.

COMMENT: You know anything is possible, and with regard to something else you said in one of your previous messages we were listening to, and you may recall Xxxx was really troubled by it, because we have many children, and you were kind of basically saying, Well if you have a lot of children, that often times that has been the experience.

PASTOR VITALE: That has been my experience.

COMMENT: It takes away from your spiritual energy if you will.

PASTOR VITALE: Right, but the Lord is capable of doing anything that He wants to do.

I am continuously learning, you know, here is Xxxx, she has seven and half children, and she is getting this outstanding dream, so you know, the Lord can do anything He wants to do.  I did want to tell you there are two additional women in our ministry who never had the Holy Spirit either. 

Several years ago we did a water baptism for a baby and they were present, and asked to be water, did I water baptize them?  I think I water baptized them, but they wanted me to pray that they receive the Holy Spirit, they wanted to speak in tongues, and the Lord told me to tell them, that He was not going to give them tongues, and at that point, the Lord was giving me the revelation about Pentecost, that I always thought the Baptists were a particular level of spiritual maturity, and then you went to Pentecost, that was the next level of spiritual maturity, and then you went to the Spirit of Christ, and the Lord said, No, you know, that the Holy Spirit people, people that get the Holy Spirit, by in large, not everybody, this may not be true for you, everybody has to answer for themselves, but the Holy Spirit is an impartation of power. 

When I look at the Baptists community, it has been my experience to see a group of people who are three and four generation Baptist, usually their lives are in order, and they are prospering, usually, that has been my experience with people that are Baptist, and you look at the Pentecostal church, and it is all drug addicts and alcoholics and everybody that has been in trouble, that the Lord has rescued from the world, and He told me that He has poured this additional power into the church to draw in this level of people, just like that doctrine of Christ I just told you is drawing the people that have a spiritual intellectual need and He wants to rescue them out of the Holy Grail movement, well the Holy Spirit was given to the church to rescue all of these people who were overcome by their sins, that there was not enough power in the Baptist church to rescue them. 

It is not true that Pentecost is a higher level of spirituality, actually the exact opposite is true, I believe today that the Baptist level of spirituality is more mature than the Pentecostal level of spirituality, and I say that because I listen to the word that is being preached.  On their level, there is a sound work coming out of the Baptist church, and when I go down south to visit my daughter, it is better, but the Pentecostal church in New York, forget it.  I actually saw a man preach for an hour, saying, It is real, he went to that side of the stage and said, it is real, and then he ran over there, and he said that it is real, but he ran over there, and said, It is real, it is real, it is real, I am telling you that was his whole message, it is real.  Do you know it is real, it is real, did you know, it is real.  

COMMENT: What was the point, what was real?

PASTOR VITALE: I guess he meant the experiences, that God is real.  I do not hear them preaching the word, but like I said, in all fairness, I hear it down south, I have heard some messages down south.  But from that point of view, I see the Pentecostal church deteriorating into spirit only, and when it deteriorates into spirit only, it is not going to be the Spirit of God, it is going to be that angel of light that comes looking like God.

COMMENT: They have gotten into the fun and games of it, into the feel good, jump around, sing, have somebody lay hands on you and tell you how wonderful you are going to be when God puts you in your ministry, and then you are on to the next place, and hope you hear the same thing, and nobody is confronting you with your sins, and they do not want to hear that.

PASTOR VITALE: Right, so we have these two other women and the Spirit is not on them, but they are, they have an intellectual anointing.  More than, the first woman that I told you about, I do not see any anointing on her anywhere.  She confesses her sins, she desires Jesus, she believes the message and she wants to learn and she wants to hear it, but these other two women, they have, I do not know what else to call it, other than an intellectual anointing, you can see that interest in the word, it is not a Pentecostal anointing.  The Lord told me to tell them He is not going to give them the Holy Spirit, they do not need it, somehow their heart is right, by the upbringing that they had, their heart is right, there is no rebellion there, everybody has a little rebellion, but they are enough right order, that He was not going to give them the Holy Spirit.  I would say, Well what is the big deal, give them a shot of the Holy Spirit too, but the Lord, and to this day, now that was five years ago, and they still have not received the Holy Spirit, but they listen to the doctrine of Christ, they understand, they are growing, and no Holy Spirit.

COMMENT: It seems just like that is the act of obedience, not giving the Holy Spirit, they put the mud on their eyes and said go get free, I am sure that it is a different meaning than that, but you know, we always learned they put the mud on their eyes because it was an act of obedience, or even baptism, you know, the outward show, it is almost like it is showing, will you go so far as to not get this thing you thought was true, you know, and out of that act of obedience God would bless them.

COMMENT: Do you still water baptize.

PASTOR VITALE: I believe that we are told to do in the Scripture, and it is an act of obedience.  More than act of obedience, it is something that a beginner is able to do, like when your kids are really small and they want to help in the house, you give them a small task to do.  It is something that person who just came to the Lord who has absolutely nothing to offer to do, so it makes them feel like they belong.

COMMENT: What name do you baptize in when you baptize?

PASTOR VITALE: I baptize in the name of Jesus.

COMMENT: Just Jesus= name only or...

PASTOR VITALE: Just Jesus= name only, you know.

COMMENT: I heard you baptized an infant?

PASTOR VITALE: Yeah.

COMMENT: Can you just kind of comment on that.

PASTOR VITALE: I am sorry what did you ask?  I dedicated the baby, and I baptized the mother, sorry about that.  I do not do infant baptism, no.  It was the mother who was baptized.  I baptize in the name of Jesus because, that whole, I looked it up once, I do not believe in this Father, son, and Holy Ghost thing.

COMMENT: When I looked into you know we got out of baptism in the name of Father, son, and Holy Ghost, but I also, I know I Xxxxx baptized in the name of Jesus, and I had a hard time with that, you know that was kind of, I started to, you know listen to Xxxx was saying, and Xxxx said there are many Jesus= out there, but there is only one Lord Jesus Christ, and He says you will not see anywhere in the Scripture where they are baptizing in the name of Jesus, but in the name of the Lord Jesus, or in the name of Jesus Christ, or in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, because it is identifying what position Jesus is in today, He is both Lord and Christ, and so he says, that is why I baptize in the name of the Lord Jesus.  That is why, I know.

PASTOR VITALE: It is just words, it is the spirit in the baptizer, see, so this active obedience to the baptizer, imparts the spirit of the baptizer to the baptized. 

COMMENT: That is exactly what I Xxxx told us to, it is not, or no, you are the one that said...

COMMENT: I was sitting there being quiet while you guys are going back and forth with it, and all of a sudden it just hit me, well the name of Jesus would encompass the spirit that she is preaching in, in other words before she baptized, she gave a whole message about what it meant, that whole spirit that Jesus was one, that God was one, that there was not three of them, so it was the whole spirit of the conversation of everything that took place, it was not just the letter of the, you know it was not just that act or word.

PASTOR VITALE:   I have not done it very often, but every time I baptize I gave a teaching about baptism and what it means.  You get the spirit of the baptizer, you can get all carried away with these words, technically, I guess he is right, it should be in the name of the Lord Jesus, but again it is just words, it is the spirit of the baptizer. 

COMMENT: Yeah, I mean water baptism is an outward showing, but it is on a lower...

PASTOR VITALE: It has to do with the heart of the baptized, it is a ritual.  We engage in rituals for other people.  We are supposed to do it for others, like I do not pray over my food because I just pray day and night, but when I am with people that need it, I will pray over my food.  If I think someone is going to stumble because I do not pray over my food, I will pray over my food.  Jesus said, I knew that you would raise Lazarus from the dead but because these people out here need to hear it, I am going to say, Lazarus come forth.  We are an example for other people, we live for other people.  For anybody that is less anointed than we are, we an example to them, we have to be careful what do.

COMMENT: When you baptize someone, do you, I am sure you speak to them at that level, so you say it is an outward showing of inward, you basically talk to them about that level as well? 

PASTOR VITALE: I tell them, You do what you are capable of doing, and then the Lord will the rest, you go under the water, and He will baptize you in His Spirit. 

COMMENT:   Which I got more questions on that, but we should probably end.

PASTOR VITALE: I am okay, I had a resurrection, if you have another question, I will answer you, as long as there is anybody sitting here.

COMMENT: Do you guys have to get going or...

COMMENT: No.

COMMENT: Paul only baptized a couple of people, and he said not all people are called to baptize, and what, why, what does that mean not all are called to baptize, I mean here is Paul, you know, and I kind of came to that as well, you know, because Xxxx was always telling me, I want you to baptize you know, I want you to baptize this person and that person, and I would not do it.  I said, I will not do it until I know in my spirit that the Lord is calling me to baptize others.  Once I got into a position in Christ, I should not say in Christ, in the Holy Spirit, I guess, or whatever, I do not know, it is so confusing, but once I came to a certain level, in the Lord, I you know in studying a lot on it, you know feeling out where my position was, I was able, the Lord called me to that place that I felt it was time, and so that is when I stood to baptize, and Xxxx stopped baptizing, and you know she just got to sick to do it, and then I started baptizing.  She told everybody to baptize at that point, I mean not everybody, but the ones who had been in the...

COMMENT: Right, and I actually disagreed with that position, you know, I did not feel right in that, because of the position that Paul took, and I said, you know, the position I took was, especially in this situation with the body here, that these people were not mature enough, they did not even understand what baptism even was, and for them to baptize somebody else, I did not feel right in the spirit, you know, so I told them, I said you know, Know who you are in Christ, make sure the Lord told you to baptize.  Not all are called to baptize Paul said, and so that is kind of what I was referring to, I said you know, you need to be called to baptize, you need to have an understanding at least, I suppose because of that spirit by which you baptize, you have a certain amount of understanding baptizing to do it, plus you also need to be called.  That is what I use to believe, but do you have the understanding on that of why Paul said that?

PASTOR VITALE: I really do not, but I will tell you what I think, see I do not think I am called to baptize, I do not think I am called to marry people, but I do it when the occasion arises in my congregation, I am called to preach this exciting doctrine of Christ, and I am definitely not called to do eulogies, I mean I did it for Xxxx and I would do it if someone in my congregation died, but I am not thrilled at the thought of doing any of these things, I married two couples, and I baptized a few, to me it is very carnal activity, and it almost hurts my spirit, but I have to do it because I am living in this world, so I think that I am not called to do these things, it is not a part, it is not something that I would seek to do, that would please me, all I want is to preach this message, I am called to preach this message. 

I think that when you have larger congregations, well in New York, it is small, you know, I do not have a thousand people in my congregation, when you have a church with a thousand people, water baptism is a big thing, you have to have plans, you can fifty people at one time being water baptized, it is a whole big thing, I was water baptized twice because initially I was baptized in the name of the Father, son, and the Holy Ghost, and then my pastor that was wrong, and he offered re-baptize us in the name of Jesus, so I was baptized twice, and it was a whole big day, and they gave out certificates and they had dinners, and family was invited, and so larger churches, they have water baptisms regularly, every few months they have a water baptism, every few months, they have a chicken dinner, every few months, I am not called to that, you know. 

You have to do it for the people that need it.  Young Christians could not sit here all day like you are sitting all day listening to this, they be out of here in 15 minutes or a half an hour, so whoever it is called to preach to the younger Christians, you have to do something to keep them under the anointing, so you have an hour and a half of music, you know, and then you have all of these activities to keep them in the church, it is like little children being in preschool or kindergarten, you have got to give them activities, but when your mind develops to the point that you can sit here for hours like you all have been sitting here for hours, the truth of the matter is, who wants to water baptize?  Who wants to do anything carnal?  You do not.

COMMENT: You know, that is interesting because as you are saying that, I am thinking about the position that Paul was in.

PASTOR VITALE: He was too high for that.

COMMENT: He was too high for that, and I see like maybe Timothy who is in training, Timothy was probably the one that baptized. 

PASTOR VITALE: Even in the book of Acts where the issue is that the apostles say they should not be waiting on tables, that there should be others waiting on tables so that they could study all day.  Of course they were not really waiting on tables, I think that the, who was it, was Steven one of them, was chosen to minister, they were just ministering to the people on the more carnal levels, so that the apostles could study all day and bring forth the doctrine.  The fact that you are not called to do something does not mean that you never do it, because I am called to preach the doctrine of Christ and right now, I work a ten hour work day, a secular work day in the ministry, the secular aspects of the ministry, that is what the Lord has me doing today, but I am not called to do that, I am doing it today, but it is not my calling.

COMMENT: The second question is this, funerals, we were taught in this work here that funerals was of the flesh, there is no point in it, and also being buried, your body, we were taught to be cremated, you know, so, and the reason, one of the main reasons, so basically, when Xxxx died, it was basically pick her up, take her to get cremated, you know, you do not have to dress her up or anything, but even though they did, I was not there, but that is kind of what we were taught, you just, you died, and you go get cremated in the clothes that you are in, and you know, five minutes, you are done, right and that is it, because it is all a fleshly thing.  What is your view on, I know funerals are fleshly, but what is your view cremation and being buried in the ground?

PASTOR VITALE: If you get that tape, on a couple of tapes, I advocate cremation, but I have since changed my mind.  At the time that I advocated cremation, it was because I felt exactly as you describe is just a carcass, at that point, the body is just a carcass, the spirit is elsewhere, and if you make too big a deal about it, it is really an idolatry.  The Jews are required to bury their dead within 24 hours, they do not preserve the body in any way, they just put you in a pine box, no fancy stuff, seal it up, and put you in the ground, and I advocate that. 

I said, Well we might as well cremate, why spend ten thousand dollars on a funeral, and then everybody is crying and everything, but two points, I think some people just need to grieve, so you have to give them a funeral.  As far as cremation goes, when I started to study Kabbalah, even before that, I started to hear somewhere that the remnant of the spirit resides in the carcass, so something along those lines, that if you burn the carcass, you are somehow closing a door on you, somehow cutting the person off of some spiritual aspect of their being.  I do not remember the occult teaching on it, but the Jews, the Kabbalists today, and I do not really receive this at this time, if it is true, the Lord has to deal with me, I still have it on the table, the Kabbalists say, they believe there are five levels of soul, and they believe that the lowest level of soul called Nephesh, and that is the only soul really that is referred to the in the Scripture, every time you read soul, it is Nephesh, that when they bury, when the carcass remains after death, that, that Nephesh hovers over the body and I am not sure that I can repeat the whole teaching to you, and therefore Orthodox Jews, called Kabbalists Jews, they go the grave yard, and they, and when I first heard of this, I was horrified, I want to tell you this, and they claim that the Nephesh of that holy person, or that person that was buried joined to God, hovers over the grave and then somehow, I do not want to tell you the wrong thing, I think say it is connected to the higher levels of soul or something like that.

I struggled with it, I had a real problem with it, but I heard that from the Kabbalists, and I heard similar things elsewhere, so I have put cremation on hold, at least until the Lord clarifies the issue to me, because I think that it occurred to me that there might be something to it since I do believe that if the carcass is left behind, that is the sign that the person was not saved.  There could be a residue of spirit or soul, because the life of the flesh is in the blood, you know, but of course the blood is all drained out, I do not know, I am just groping with this, but I am thinking that there could be some remnant, some aspect of the spirit or soul left in the carcass and if you burn it, that would be destroyed, but I do not, it is not fully formed in my mind.  I am horrified at the thought of going to the cemetery to try to, and they do not believe they are communing with the dead because they are forbidden, we are forbidden to commune with the dead, so they do not believe they are communing with the dead.

Here is the danger, this teaching somehow has seeped into the church, and there is a teaching in the church that if you are saved, quote unquote whatever that means to them, okay, when you physically die, that your spirit passes over, but your spirit is not dead, because you were saved, and therefore it is okay to commune with beings on the other side of the veil.  If your husband or your wife or your daughter, or your mother died, it is okay to try and contact them, because they are not dead, it is not communing with the dead, they are alive, and as far as I am concerned it is an abomination, you were going to that conference.  When I first met you, you were going to North Carolina to that conference, and I told that, that is what they were teaching there, and I guess you decided not to go.

Whether or not, there is any truth to this at all, because I am really very careful with my rejection of Kabbalistic teaching, because I have been arrogant in the past and I have heard Kabbalistic teaching that has really offended me, and I pronounced them ungodly immediately, and it has turned out that I have been wrong.  I am not pronouncing it ungodly, I am telling you personally, I have said, Lord it offends me, the thought of going to a cemetery to somehow access your ancestor, but I have not, if the Lord has spoken to me, I have not heard from Him, so I am just leaving it alone for now. 

Enough got through to me that I decided I would not go for cremation anymore, just in case there may be some truth behind, let us say it turns out that this is not true, that the Kabbalists are wrong, there still might be some truth upon which the error is founded, so at this point, I would not recommend cremation, until I have more understanding. 

COMMENT: The verse, the eagles will gather at the carcass or something, is that not talking about the...

PASTOR VITALE: Them eating the carcass?

COMMENT: Yes, what is the meaning of that? 

PASTOR VITALE:   My understanding of it, I feel confident that this is accurate, that when our spirit ascends, the spirit is symbolized by an eagle, or by a bird you know, so when Christ in us matures to the point that we fly in the heavenlies, that is the parable, that we fly in the heavenlies, we can only do that when we die to the carnal life, so that is what it means, where the carcass is, where the eagles are flying that is where the carcass is, to fly in the spirit in Christ, you have to be dead to your carnality, and that is what it means.

COMMENT:   That is a scary thing because just what you are saying about cremation and burial, I mean it just kind of upsets my stomach, you know because I did some study in that, and it just kind of engraved in me about cremation, about just going and getting it done with and over with, and just the thought of that, being buried in the ground, I hope we do not die you know, but...

PASTOR VITALE: It is interesting, I am really glad to hear from the Lord on it, but as I said, I never said, He has not answered me yet, because I do not know yet, all I know is that I have not heard.  I believe that He answers every question that we ask, and I believe that all truth is in the spirit, that we have to reach for it, you know, so I do not know why I have not heard from Him on that area, maybe I am not capable of understanding it yet. 

COMMENT: I have wondered why Joseph had the bones taken back to Israel, you know.

COMMENT: All prophets were buried in Jerusalem, correct? 

COMMENT: Yeah that is the true, that is a Biblical principle, that all of the prophets were, every prophet that ever lived in the Old Testament I know was buried in Jerusalem, and it was very significant that they be buried in Jerusalem, but I was thinking of that same thing, because why you know, it kind of tells you something but then what I think it was, well does it literally mean, were they literally carrying Joseph?

PASTOR VITALE: I do not think they were literally carrying Joseph.  It is like when Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and He says, You are dead men=s bones, you are sepulchers, you are graves walking over dead men=s bones.  What He meant was, Abel in you is dead, you are carrying the dead bones of Adam, you think that you are Christ, but you are really dead, carrying the dead bones of Adam, and I think what Joseph meant when he said that, was, he said, Make sure that when you go back that you take my spiritual remains.

COMMENT: Amen, the remnant.

PASTOR VITALE: The remnant, that Christ should be in you, do not, remember the Hebrews were continuously guilty of falling into idolatry and separating from God, so he said, Make sure that you take my bones, which are a representation of the promised seed, make sure you take Christ back with you when you go back. 

COMMENT: Do you know what the spiritual meaning of cattle is, do you know what does it mean cattle, what spiritually is it talking about, not you know, I know that there were farmers in those days, but do you know?

PASTOR VITALE: Well we are the cattle, fallen mankind, we are the cattle, and we are the herd, and the truth is that Satan and her cohorts feed on us just like we feed on cattle.  When somebody dies, their energy, their spirit is discharged.  She was telling me about the plane, was that you that was saying that, that the person was dying in the plane.

COMMENT: The guy that survived and he watched the people burn in the center of it, yeah.

PASTOR VITALE: So when we die, our spirit, our energy body departs from this flesh, and Satan consumes it to the fullest degree that she has the legal authority to do so, she consumes our soul, that is her whole purpose for tempting us to sin, because every time we sin, she has legal ground to come and drink at our well.  All of these insects out there biting flies, mosquitoes, tics, all of these insects that suck the physical blood of our body, they are just a physical manifestation of the insects that are in the spiritual realm that live off of our energy.  That is why Satan wants us to die, when we die, especially when we die prematurely, especially when a child dies, the energy has not been used up yet, and she consumes the soul, that is how she consumes the soul.

COMMENT: It brings me to a question and it is something that I had just, I happened to say in one of our meetings in the last month or so, it just came out, and then I thought after I said it, I thought well, I will have to ask Sheila on that, but there is energy in everything, in all of creation, I just have not done enough study on this, but the energy is the soulish, with a consciousness.

PASTOR VITALE: With the breath in it, the human spirit.

COMMENT: With the breath in it, right, so spiritually speaking we are attached to certain elements of the tree, of a cow, of a bird.

PASTOR VITALE: Our physical bodies are made out of the same atoms of this world, form our body, and the trees and the animals, yes.

COMMENT: And that would be part of the female aspect of Adam?

PASTOR VITALE: It is the female aspect of Adam that fell.

COMMENT: So would it be, we are at a higher evolution wise for instance, we are at a higher stage than everything else is, so is it possible that when you talk about the outer darkness, is it possible that animals and trees are even in a further outer darkness realm than we are.

PASTOR VITALE: I guess you could say that because human beings have a spirit, that is the difference between everything else and us.

COMMENT: But somehow eventually, that was what I was saying in the meeting, we have a spirit and animals do not have a spirit, but the soulish aspect will eventually, everything, because we come from one atom, eventually everything that we see here, there is a spiritual principle behind it, soulish principle behind it, eventually as we ascend, eventually, everything will heighten to a higher spiritual level, and eventually everything will cease to exist as it begins to join back to the true spiritual creation that God intended to be the visible expression of Himself.

PASTOR VITALE: That is interesting, I have never thought of it that way, I always thought that this world was the way I expressed it, it was an additional orbit on the atom of creation, and additional layer that only came into existence when the Serpent took over the creation, and that when the spiritual aspect, when the breath of Jehovah that is in creation ascends, this whole world will dissolve just like Jesus= body dissolved.  That is what happened to Jesus= body, the spiritual man ascended to a higher plane, and His physical body just dissolved into the atoms of the atmosphere. 

COMMENT: What are the, when I think of dissolving, I am thinking of, I am thinking of boiling for instance, the moisture that goes up in the air right, that is what I see happening, as we continue to, as you spoke of in the garden of Gethsemane, and as the blood began to penetrate out, the glory, it began to dissolve the fleshly body, so as we look at this creational realm that we live in here, as we ascend, all of creation will begin to dissolve or boil, I do not like the word boil, but that mist will go up and transmutate into the true living soul of the female aspect of Adam.

PASTOR VITALE: I agree that everything in this world that is of spirit will ascend and when that happens the atoms will fall apart, because the spirit is the glue that holds the atoms together, I do not know what you said after that, but I think that what is going to happen to that vapor is that it is going to be absorbed, my understanding today is that it is going to be absorbed by Christ.

COMMENT: Well it will be absorbed by Christ, but it will be the soulish aspect, it will be put in right order. Right now, everything is completely out of order, so as it dissolves and those atoms go up, it will, basically it will enter up into the true creation, and within that creation it will be the female aspect, the soul, everything within order the Serpent, Satan, Leviathan, everything will be in order, Cain will be the visible expression of the spirit being contained within the soul.  Everything here will be dissolved...

PASTOR VITALE: And it will be raised up to a higher level.

COMMENT: It will be raised up to a higher level to be the expression, visible spiritual expression of Adam, of Jehovah, I do not know which words to use here.  The Spirit will live in the true spiritual soul, the righteous order of everything, so yeah, everything that dissolves, those atoms will go up into a higher place, and...

PASTOR VITALE: Everything that came down from a higher place will go up to a higher place, and everything that is of this realm will dissolve.

COMMENT: Everything of this realm that is right, everything that is of this realm will dissolve, but the atoms within it, the soulish aspect, the energy, the breath within everything that we see in this creation, fallen creation, I should not say fallen creation but fallen formation, will then go up to its rightful order in the true creation.

PASTOR VITALE: Everything that came down from above, will go back up.

COMMENT: I want to ask a question while you are on that, it is kind of on the same line, I was thinking about, that energy is never gained nor lost, it just changes form, do you think that is true spiritually, it is kind of like along the lines that he is talking about, as far as I understand it, when the time comes that this is not necessary, it will turn into a spiritual representation of what it was in the right order up in a different plane, am I kind of getting that?

COMMENT: That is what we are saying.  I am pretty sure that is what we are saying. 

COMMENT: I look at this bean bag, there is energy here and it originated from God, ultimately, so to me I look at this stuff and when the world dissolves, it is not going to be, like an example, I was seeing the mp3 player, and one of the kids asked, wow, where do you think that goes?  And I was thinking like when you die, it is the same place your soul goes, it is gone, you know but is that true, you know, is it really gone, there was energy there and it is gone, I mean this is really hard to comprehend, but all of these things you can see and you can grab them, it took energy to make them, is that going to go to waster, I think it would not, I think it is all part of God ultimately, so it just keeps going around, we got an infinite God, it is hard to comprehend, it is so infinite, like the sun, it just keeps producing, keeps producing, so does it matter if some is wasted, I mean, I could keep going on an on with this, but He just keeps producing energy, I just cannot believe that it dies out, I think it just keeps...

PASTOR VITALE: It does not, the energy does not die out, it keeps on changing form, it is the earth that turns into ashes and falls away, it is a waste product.  If you look that up in the Hebrew, the ashes of the earth, it is a waste product, and what is interesting is that the Scriptural principle is that, this whole world has been rolled out, it rolls out, the concept is that is starts from a point an almost imperceptible point, and the point got larger and larger and larger, and literally rolled out in to this whole world, that is why the Scripture says in the last day, it is going to roll up like a scroll, it says roll up like a scroll, but it is really going to withdraw into that initial point, and even the scientist will tell you that the creation began with a single point, invisible creation, it was rolled out, and it is going to be rolled back up and become a point, and even that point will continue to, there is a scientific term for that, but I do not remember it, will continue to congeal, but that is not the right word, until it even becomes invisible. 

Exactly what that entails is going to happen to the matter, I do not know, but I know it was rolled out and it is going to be rolled in.  It is exciting, but I agree you know energy cannot be destroyed, it just changes form, everything is energy, this world is a world of very slow moving energy. 

COMMENT: Can I change the subject?  I was going to ask about tithing, but it is about children tithing.  Is there is a certain direct way to have them do, to have the Spirit of Christ in them, or to know...

PASTOR VITALE: It is a good idea to teach your children to tithe on their allowance, or whatever money you give them.

COMMENT: I guess I should not say little kids, like a baby.

COMMENT: Let us say a baby gets a hundred dollars from grandpa.

PASTOR VITALE: Oh, well that is up to the parent.

COMMENT: Could you just expand on that for age.

COMMENT: You know with our children, they have, they have separated that money always, however I do not know if it is my position to go to the teacher, the one who feeds you, so I do not know who they identify that with, so it has just been sitting in the envelope in their door for a long time and for a long time, they were thinking about Xxxx, and they were not sure, so it just sits there, I mean they still separate it at this point, you know, so that is the part where I think, do I direct them, or do we direct them in who they give it to? 

PASTOR VITALE: That is a good question, since this is such an unusual situation where you know Xxxx is the immediate person, but this is the ministry that feeds you, I honestly do not know the answer to that, but I ask the Lord to give the answer.  I would like to know what the answer is myself, but the whole, the way the Lord has set up the whole thing, the whole set up of this ministry is that the teaching and the anointing comes down from the head, so even though Xxxx is the immediate elder here, the anointing that is here comes down from that, I think the Lord is saying that it should go to Living Epistles, it should go to the head. 

COMMENT: And with Xxxx, he might identify with that more, and then even Xxxx, but there is just the three of them that get any money, you know to them, I do not know, I guess, yeah, that is kind of how I feel, but I think do I enforce that, or do I wait until they are giving it, because is it really a tithe if I rip it out of their hands, you know it is not, and that is why it just sits there, and I do, we have talked about it, just pray about it, and just ask.

COMMENT: You know, one of the things that I get is, I am sorry, you have a children=s type of ministry on the Lem site, a children=s series.  I have never looked at it, but that is for children correct? 

PASTOR VITALE: She has a book of fairy tales where basically that is what she has for children.

COMMENT: Is it fairy tales with a godly connotation?

PASTOR VITALE: Yes, she shows you the Doctrine of Christ, in the fairy tales.

COMMENT: So what I am basically getting in the spirit is by relating, look up some of these messages, and maybe read these messages to these children, and identify them to them and therefore they can kind of, with their little minds, they can kind of grasp who they give their tithe to then. 

COMMENT: The other thing is that, you are getting your teaching from Lem, and then you are giving that to your children, so in reality they are getting the teaching from Lem, just being you.

COMMENT: Even though they have not embraced it on their own, they are seeing it.

COMMENT: Through you it is coming to them.

COMMENT: I think they will identify it though with the children=s literature on there.

PASTOR VITALE: I think that was a really good idea Xxxx.

COMMENT: Now do you recommend last videos?

PASTOR VITALE: Yes, did you ever buy them?

COMMENT: Yes.

PASTOR VITALE: Were they a blessing?

COMMENT: Yeah, they are, it was a contact point, you know I watched some of that stuff, it is for children, but it is good, it is not like Veggie Tales, and things just watching, it like wow.

PASTOR VITALE: Yeah, I do not care for those videos.

COMMENT: It is better than some cartoons, some tv, but maybe not, I mean you use to watch Star Trek. [people laughing], but yeah, it is good, it is good.

COMMENT: What is it, those videos?

COMMENT: The Nest Videos, they have Scriptural, Bible stories.

COMMENT: What are they about? 

COMMENT: Bible stories, they are cartoons, they are animated, it is not word for word from the Bible, definitely not King James, but it is a story based on Scriptural. 

PASTOR VITALE: Cartoons, they are not cheap.

COMMENT: Although we got the VHS tapes which they must not be making those anymore, so you can get it for about 70% off.

PASTOR VITALE: Because they are going DVD?

COMMENT: Well I like them better anyway because your kids scratch the DVDs. 

COMMENT: Where do you get those?

COMMENT: We just found it on line. I could just bring you a few videos.

PASTOR VITALE: Well you look at a search engine, Nest Children=s videos, or Nest Christian videos. 

COMMENT: That is one thing that we never have our children watch is cartoons.

PASTOR VITALE: Do you have a tv in the house?

COMMENT: Yes, in the bedroom, but they, our children, the only thing they watch is Little House on the Prairie, Daniel Boone, some westerns.  Now as I am thinking about this, I am talking to Xxxx and I said, eventually we want them to expand their minds, eventually I am thinking it would be nice to watch, Star Wars, because I felt later on down the road, you know just certain type of tv shows that have that Star Trek principle, where it gets them to think that there are different types of reality realms.  A year ago, I was just completely object to something like that but when I think about it, like Little House on the Prairie, it is simple, it is basic, but now it is like it does not even expand the mind.

PASTOR VITALE: No, they are basic shows.

COMMENT: It is actually very humanistic.

COMMENT: It is very carnal, it just deals with the carnal realm. 

COMMENT: When you think about the Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe, Xxxx is in to that stuff and it is a great way to increase your children=s spirituality.  I went and watched it in the movie theater, it is just laced with witchcraft, I mean it is really excellent as far (inaudible).  I do not know if I want to subject my child to that.

PASTOR VITALE: I have never heard of it, The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe.

COMMENT: (inaudible).

PASTOR VITALE: Oh, I heard of that, but I have never seen it.

COMMENT: I have seen it.  I was not really impressed, the one who showed it, they were all impressed with it.

COMMENT: Yeah, there is a lion in it, and it represents Christ, what Christ did for us.

COMMENT: The kids did not know that.

COMMENT: Yeah, the lion sacrifices himself, and then he resurrected, you know, it is a C.S. Lewis novel, but you know yeah, I actually I felt basically it was kind of wrong for me to bring the kids there because of the witchcraft.  I actually ended up seeing that movie, that was a year a half ago, or two years ago.

COMMENT: I would not have a problem with Xxxxx and Xxxx seeing it, because they are old enough, I know the Baptist people are saying this is so great, this guy has got it, well you can learn some from it, there is witchcraft everywhere.

COMMENT: What did you think of, you know a lot of the Christians were really big into the Lord of the Rings, and I ended up seeing the first one, and after I saw it, the room just filled up with tons of spirits, and my wife ended up waking up in the middle of the night, and she looks at me and she goes, what did you do, what is wrong here, something is wrong?  I was like nothing, I watched Lord of the Rings.  She said, What did you watch that movie for? 

PASTOR VITALE: I saw it, I saw parts one and two, (inaudible), sometimes I watch occult movies and I enjoy the principles, but there was not even any spiritual principles in it, it was just violent, nothing to enjoy.

COMMENT: I saw it too and I was not impressed.

PASTOR VITALE: I was not impressed at all.

COMMENT: I was very impressed with the Matrix, there was so much stuff there that speaks to me, and it was just weird because, yeah that was awesome, like that revelation you had about Xxxx, I went and I ministered to her, I called her while I was at work, and I said, you know (inaudible).

COMMENT: [people laughing].  You mean the second and the third one, or...

COMMENT: No, the second and the third one were not nearly as good, the first one was way better.

COMMENT: It was fast moving.

COMMENT: Yeah, it was too much, it was too much.

COMMENT: There is a book called Hinds Feet in High Places, have you ever heard of it?

COMMENT: Yes.

PASTOR VITALE: I have not read it.

COMMENT: Well it depicted spirits on a girl who is deformed, I cannot remember, it has been a while since I read it, she lives in the valley of despair, and it is really, it just really puts the whole, it is all a parable basically, but yet the illustration, I got the illustration.

COMMENT: I liked the book. I read it a couple of times.