The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
 The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.

 

We wen- -- I went in the hospital, and the s- -- Abe was telling me that this young girl, blonde girl, I guess, in her early 20s or so was violently murdered, you know, and she was full of blood and everything, and it bothered me. And then we went into another room, and Celia was with me, and there was two babies in a bed, about 2 years old, and they were starving, so we -- both of us were feeding them. We could not get the food into their mouths fast enough, and that was it. So --

            Were they receiving the food?

            Yeah. They wanted it so bad. They were so hungry, you know, they were, like [CROSSTALK] [?could not get enough?]. The one was like [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?big fat faces?].

The woman that died is the carnal mind because she is female, and the two babies were the church, I do not know, the church and the world or [INAUDIBLE] the people waiting for the food. They are starving to death out there, and they are -- you know, because of their carnal minds, they are rejecting the true food. But God is going to kill the carnal mind, and, you know, there is an Alternate Translation in the Book of Matthew that says that when the carnal mind is…I cannot quote it to you exactly, but when God deals with Satan and the carnal mind and restrains them and the members of humanity hear the truth about their condition, they are going to willfully turn away from Satan. And, apparently, God has made a judgment. God's plan of salvation is that He is going to deliver us with understanding. He is not going to snatch us against our will. He wants us to understand and to turn away from the carnal mind towards Him. That is what He wants, and He is --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- going to have to wound the carnal mind for us to understand because we cannot understand with our carnal mind. So he is going to have to do something to help us to understand because His plan is that, through understanding, we shall turn away from the carnal mind and towards Him, reject sin and become delivered out of this world system. So if we cannot understand in the condition that we are in now, then He is going to have to wound the carnal mind, and, I believe that it is coming and that that is what your dream was. He is going to have to do something to make people understand this doctrine because you have to know your condition. You have to know God's plan for deliverance. You have to [?know that?] everything is not in this doctrine; you are salvation is not in this doctrine. You are salvation -- how do you get saved, anybody? What is your salvation in? What is your salvation [CROSSTALK]

            [?It is in Christ?].

            Christ.

            [CROSSTALK] forming Christ in you.

Right. It is through union with the Son. Salvation is in union with the Son. He who is joined to the Lord --

            [?Is one spirit?].

-- is one spirit. Now the doctrine is a part of the whole program because it is the food that is feeding the Son in you. The doctrine is important, but the -- your actual salvation is through union with the Christ. So we have people that have an intellectual knowledge of this doctrine, and they think they are saved, and you are not saved because you can have an intellectual knowledge of it, and your spirit is not joined to the Son, and you have received a barren word. You may understand everything I am telling you, but if it has not produced the life of the Son in you --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- it was worthless, OK.

            It is not really -- it is not just the doctrine, but, well, it is the Word of God.

It is the Word of God.

            -- rightly divided.

It is the living Word of God, right, OK. So I forgot the point that I was trying to make.

            Union with the Son.

Yeah, but before that I was saying something. I forgot what I was saying. So [INAUDIBLE]

            Well, it w- -- you were saying that, you know --

What was I saying?

            -- you have got to have Christ to interpret it. You have to have Christ to [CROSSTALK]

Oh, yeah, the doctrine. That is what I was saying. I was talking about the doctrine. So if you cannot bear to sit in a meeting like this -- which, obviously, by our numbers, not many people can bear to sit under this anointing for three hours. They go running out of here screaming; they cannot bear it, OK. So if they cannot bear to sit under the anointing, if they cannot understand the word, how are they going to become reconciled unto God?

            I know, right?

So the Lord is going to have to do something to not only wound the carnal minds of men, but He is going to have to do something very powerful with this existing fivefold ministry. He is going to have to strip them of their authority because they are not entering in, and they are stopping the other disciples from entering in. [AUDIO CUTS OUT]

Something has to happen. This country is in trouble. I turned on the news for 15 minutes this morning while I had a cup of tea, and one of the news team was interviewing an editor of "Wom-" -- I think, the magazine was "Woman's Day." I may have the name wrong, and they were talking to her about how single women can get -- capture a man because the rules have all changed, and they showed women shooting pool. And, apparently, with all of our liberation, women still have trouble getting men because, you see, you cannot impose yourself on somebody. You can be as liberated as you want, but when you desire a relationship with another person, the other person has to say amen. No matter how liberated you are, you cannot force someone to have a relationship with you. You might be willing to call them up; you might be willing to fornicate with them; you might be willing to do anything, to ask them out, to pay the bills. But if the guy does not want to go, you cannot force him to go.

So women are finding that it is not all that simple. Liberation was not necessarily the answer to getting all these men, so this woman's editor had the answer: Cast a spell on the man.

            Oh, [CROSSTALK]

She said it on national TV. She was as serious as a person could be. And what sent chills from the top of my head to the bottom of my toes was what she said after cast a spell. Well, she said it three times. Cast a spell, but be careful because we do not want to hurt them. Make sure that you are really going to want to stay in a relationship with this guy. Do not be casting spells frivolously because we do not want to hurt them.

            [?It is prevalent?].

Yeah. The dominat- -- the female domination, and it -- well, we could not get you by going to bed with you whenever we wanted to. We could not get you by picking up the bills. We could not get you by making the phone calls, OK, but we are -- this is -- I am speaking for an element of the society, of course. But we are determined to become the aggressors in this society, and if we cannot get you by doing any of those other things, we are going to start casting spells on you.

            Usurping authority.

            [CROSSTALK] [?witches?].

Yeah.

            And they think it is good, right?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. She said -- and the male anchorman who was there --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- I do not know his name, but, you see, let me back up. The woman who was interviewing her did not think there was anything wrong with it, but the male anchorman giggled. I have a very intense discernment. I am telling you that man was nervous. I am telling you that man was nervous. That was a nervous giggle. That is scary.

            [CROSSTALK]

That is -- you better believe it.

            Yeah.

Yeah. That is scary. So it is coming out into the open; the witchcraft is coming out into the open. I have been preaching it to you for almost a year now, as the Lord has given it to me, that we are going to see blatant witchcraft, the likes of which, in our wildest dreams, we could not imagine. And there are going to be Christians -- this is the Scripture. There will be Christians who are going to be smitten by it, and it is scriptural. If you do not use what God gave you, you are going to lose what you have, and there are thousands of Christians in the church who are playing church; they are playing games. They think that their relationship with the Lord is to give them gifts and presents and Cadillacs and things like that, and they have not been serious with God, and, therefore, their spiritual weapons have not been built into them. I have been preaching this heavily for a year now. There is absolutely no time to lose. You have got to get your slaughter weapon in your hands, Ezekiel 9. If you do not have your slaughter weapons in your hand, you are going to be slaughtered. I tell you the truth.

            And I te- -- I gave June a testimony that I met a sister that was in the church we went to [UNINTELLIGIBLE], and when she got out of there, she had a nervous breakdown because her husband cheated on her [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. When she got out of there, you know, we were telling her, come on, come to church. She   said, I cannot. I gave my soul to Satan. I cannot come to church anymore. They made me give my soul to Satan, you know. So I do not know what is -- I know, for sure, that there is witchcraft going on in the mental hospital, and they are using --

It is going on in every institution.

            That is wild. That is just like --

            You know --

            -- what I read in the book --

            [CROSSTALK]

            -- Rebecca's book.

I would like to share with you what the Lord had told me just this week. One of the things we teach here is that these Scriptures and these statements have to be translated into reality for us. What does it mean, I sold my soul to Satan? What does it mean in terms of how will it affect me? I never knew, and the Lord told me this week. What it means is full stature in Satan. When it -- when you hear Satan wants your soul, he wants to fully, unrestrainedly manifest in you. That is what he wants, and we have been preaching that here for quite a while now, that we are going to start seeing such situations on the Earth, people -- full manifestations of Satan. We are going to see the sons of God in the fullness of the stature of Jesus Christ, and we are going to see human beings manifesting fully the personality of Satan, that, to date, with some exceptions and some happy incidents, most people are both good and evil, usually trying to lead a decent life, at least on the surface, trying to survive in this world, OK.

And the Lord has shown us that this is spiritual immaturity, just as our human children are -- [?either?] though their -- even though their bodies will indicate whether they are male or female, their minds and their behavior are neuter. Boys and girls do the same thing at a young age because their -- they have not really individuated out yet. They have not started living the sex that their body demonstrates. Well, spiritually the same thing is about -- is happening and is about to happen. The human race is immature, and the good and the evil is mixed in everybody, and very few people -- certainly with the exception of Jesus Christ, no one has shown the fullness of righteousness, which is spiritual manhood. Righteousness in Christ is spiritual manhood.

There have been some people that have gone pretty high in spiritual womanhood. We see some -- there is a lot of witchcraft in other countries, and it is here now, where the people are pretty deep in. I am told that they can turn into trees and animals and that all this is real. Although, I have never really met anyone like that myself, and even if I -- aside from the fact that I had met them, I do not know what the signs are of full stature in witchcraft. You see, I know what the signs are in Christ. I know that you stop getting sick and that you stop dying and that, if an animal bites you, you shake it off, and that nothing, absolutely nothing, can harm you. I believe with all my heart, if your head was cut off in an accident, I am not sure whether you would grow out another one. I know that it could be restored because we know that Jesus just picked up the ear and put it back on the guard, so we know that if my hand was cut off today and I was in full stature, I would just stick it back on, OK. Whether or not if that hand was destroyed, if another would generate, I believe that is true.

I had a testimony. The Lord just reminded me I had a testimony from somebody whose thumb was cut off, and another one grew right out. Now in this man's case, this was a gift. We have talked about this now. His new thumb growing out did not grow out of him because of a condition of spiritual righteousness in his spirit; it was some kind of a gift. Just as if you have cancer, God forbid, and you get healed, you are not healed because you are righteous; you are healed because God has mercy on you. Amen? OK. But when you are in full stature, any illness that tries to come upon you or any snake that tries to bite you has no power over you, not because it is a gift, because the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance, but it is because of righteousness. See, the soul is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Now when your spirit is in the full stature of the stature of the Lord Jesus Christ, it quickens or gives life to your soul, and it preserves your body, and nothing from the outside of you can do any permanent damage to you because of a condition of righteousness, OK. Then you no longer have to be raised from the dead when you die. You no longer have to be healed when you get sick.  You no longer have to have the demon cast out when you manifest up. None of these things happen to you because your internalized person, the new man in you, is fully mature and preserving your soul and your body, and anything that tries to hurt you fails because of righteousness, not as a gift.

So I do not know what the signs are of someone who is in full stature in Satan. I do not know if the fact that they can turn into trees or turn into animals or astral project or travel in the spirit -- I do not know what the overriding, infallible sign is that they are completely possessed of Satan. That is a good question. I never really asked the Lord, but I ask Him now. But this is the word of the Lord to me: In the very near future, we are going to see the sons of God manifest in the fitness of the stature of the Lord Jesus Christ, and there will be manifestations of Satan in full stature on the Earth, OK.

Now the Scripture, if you have ears to hear and eyes to see, the Scripture speaks about spiritual puberty. It does in the Song of Solomon and I think also in Isaiah. I think, it is Isaiah. It says, well, the time of love came; you grew up, the time for full union with the Lord. So God's creation is growing up spiritually. We have been prepuberty to date, and we found out that everything that we see in this world has been designed to give us a message about the truth of our spiritual condition, and the truth of our spiritual condition is that we are the bride of Christ. We are getting married. And you know what happens when you get married? You make love with your husband, and it is about to happen, and those who are married to the Lord Jesus Christ will be intimate with Him, and those who are marrying Satan will be intimate with her, that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

You see, we have a lot of people in the kingdom church saying, well, when the Bible was written, Paul said Jesus or John said Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, but today we have more begotten sons of God. That is not true. Jesus Christ, Jesus, who was Christ, is the only begotten Son of God. He is the only one ever and ever to be begotten by the direct siring of the Father. From the day of His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension, from the day forward, the plant or the tree of life has been planted into humanity. And if you want to get into the kingdom, there is only one way you can get in: You must receive a cutting from that tree. You are not going to get sired by yourself. You are not going to get impregnated directly like Jesus did. You can wait for eternity, if you can survive, and it is not going to happen to you. You are not equal to Him; you are not going to have the same experience that He had, but you can be grafted into His tree. So --

            [?Jesus?].

The -- right? Right. So [UNINTELLIGIBLE] the way --

            [?You are on the right track?].

-- it came forth was I was saying, well, so you cannot do it with your carnal mind; you have to have the mind of Christ because there is no way the Father intends to do it directly with you. And then this sen- -- this last sentence came out: But since Jesus was brought forth from seed, we have that hope. [AUDIO CUTS OUT] [INAUDIBLE]

We have not been born yet. Jesus is the only one that has come out of the womb and has seen the Lord face-to-face. We -- you know, this whole world, it is in utero, and we died. The baby is dead, but we have not spontaneously aborted because the Lord has said He will not have it. The Lord has said you abide in this death because I am going to raise you from the dead, and then you are going to be born.

            Can I ask a question?

Yeah.

            OK. What if -- I thought the Scripture says that Jesus was with the Father from the beginning of creation, so He has seen the Father before He was born again in Jesus of Nazareth, did He not?

He did, but He was in a different form. He was pure spirit. He was as one with the Father as if you take a natural woman who has the potential to bear children, all the ovum in her ovaries, they are one with the woman. You see, most Christians think that when the Scripture says that Jesus was with the Father from the beginning, they think that He was with Him in a fully mature, adult form, but I suggest to you that the Scripture does not say that, and I do not believe that it is true. He was with Him as His sperm in His Father's loins.

            OK. Then how about the worlds being created by Jesus Christ? If He was only a sperm at the beginning, how would He have the power to create and frame the world?

That is a good question, OK, and most Christians believe that He had two hands and that He made the world, but that is not what happened. If you study it in the Greek, what it is saying is that when -- He is the sperm of God. You know, the word seed -- the word is the seed. You know the Scripture?

            Yes.

It says the word is the seed. The Greek word translated seed is sperma. He is the sperm of God. When He separated from the Father, there was such a life in His substance that the world was formed out of Him, not that He had an intelligence that formed it with His hands. I think, it is in the Book of Isaiah. It says, if you want to make a house, you need wood, so before you make the house, you go into the forest, and you cut the tree down, and you get the wood. Jesus was the tree that this whole creation was carved out of. It does not mean that He actually formed it. It means it was made out of Him. With Him, everything was made, and without Him, nothing was made because everything that is made is made out of the substance of His life.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Well, if it is true, I pray that God quicken it to you. I believe that it is true.

            [INAUDIBLE] [?than a big bang?].

Yeah. Well, we do not want to overwhelm James, [?but?] we are going to let the Lord direct him in how the meetings go and the questions that he asks and what messages that he listens to because we do not want him to be overwhelmed, and Jesus is perfectly capable of taking him from teaching to teaching and to do whatever the Lord is accomplishing in his life at this time. Because everybody that comes to this ministry does not come the same way. This ministry if very unique. When -- a few years ago, I used to think that everybody who came in had to start with message one and go right through, and the Lord showed me [?that is?] absolutely untrue because that is binding your mind to this realm of time. You are saying, well, we have been studying here for three years, and if you are new, there is no way you can catch up to us. You have to start with message one. You have to go through what we went through, and we will always be three years ahead of you. Not so, absolutely not so, OK.

The Lord Jesus Christ can catch somebody up or even bring them past you. I am telling you the truth. Get your pride on a hook. He can bring someone in here and shoot them past you in six months, and you better believe it because it is the truth. And it does not mean that you are doing anything wrong; it just means that it is the will of the Father. If you are doing everything that you could do and the Lord brings someone in here and they shoot past you and they mature more quickly than you do, it is the will of God. All that you can legitimately do is ask Him for the maturity yourself. Everything -- you see, He is beyond our personal, petty strivings for acknowledgement or recognition or -- He is going to resurrect this creation from -- He has got a dead fetus on His hands, and He is not worried about your little petty envies and [?picayunishness?] and all your pride. He has got a dead fetus on His hands; it is His Son, and that is His primary, overriding concern. And the fact of the matter is, brethren, that some of us have more spiritual potential or more potential for spiritual maturity than others. It does not mean you cannot get there, but some people have more potential to get there faster. And if He brings in someone from the out- -- if it is Him, you see. In the church world, we see pastors bringing people in from the outside, relatives, family, friends, girlfriends and exalting them above the congregation. This is not acceptable to God, but if the will of the Father is, for whatever His reason, if the will of the Father is to bring someone in here and, within a year or within six months, they are more mature than you are, brethren, you have got to swallow it. I am warning you: Swallow it, or you are going to choke because His mind is beyond your pettiness.

And I know that I pray all the time because I know that this could happen to me, and I pray all the time. I say, Lord, all I ask You for is I should have something to do. If You decide to exalt someone above me, that is fine, but I just ask that I still have an assignment, and I believe that He would grant me that, and you just go on with your life because His purposes are much greater than your individual purposes.

            [?Yeah?].

Yeah, so that is the truth. So God -- getting back to you, God has his plan for you. He knows exactly; He has a plan for you. There is 500 or more messages here. He knows exactly which ones you need to listen to.

            [CROSSTALK]

He knows how He is going to teach you and what method He is going to teach you and what path He is going to teach you, and hopefully, and Lord willing, I will be able to respond to that path as the questions come forth and as I send you messages, that I will be responding to Him.

Now I believe that it is a manifestation, and God is breaking your witchcraft and your mind control, and you are going to have to let go because He will talk to you when He is ready. You cannot make Him talk to you. I was speaking about that at the beginning of the meeting with -- between women and men. You know, you cannot force somebody to want you, you see. You can force them to do things, but you cannot force them to want you. You see, you cannot force the human spirit, except by witchcraft, but you certainly cannot use that on the Lord, you see. You can -- some people can be bought; some people can be controlled f- -- because of various different things, but their heart of hearts, you cannot possess them in their spirit unless you completely overtake them with witchcraft and mind control. Most people can be in severe degrees of bondage and slavery, but you cannot possess their spirit. The spirit of man is free, except in severe cases, and you certainly cannot possess the Lord. And I am telling you the --

            [?I just have to wait?]?

You have to give it up, June, OK. And, you know, I have talked to you and Celia. I have spoken to you a lot, you know. It is a blessing that God has come to you at your ages, but the fact is that you have been using witchcraft and mind control to get your needs met for 50, 60 years, and you just -- it is going to -- it may take you a little longer or a more severe trial than someone in their 20s or their 30s. It makes sense, does not it? You have been using it all these years, and you have been getting your needs met through witchcraft and mind control. Of course, you did not know it was witchcraft and mind control, but you were getting your needs met that way all these years, and now, all of a sudden, you hear this word, and you do not know how to stop doing it. You do not know how to stop, so you tried to stop doing it in your own strength, which is still witchcraft and mind control. So nobody -- as far as I am concerned, nobody could stop. Nobody can stop; God has to break you.

Now this is what the kingdom church is resisting. They do not want to believe it, that we cannot stop sinning, even if we want to.

            [CROSSTALK]

And we found a Scripture in Job where Job is all lifted up in pride, and he says to the Lord, why are You doing this to me? Why do not You just tell me what I did wrong, and I will stop doing it? Why are You letting all this disaster come upon me? And God's answer to Job is repent of pride because even if I told you, you could not stop if you wanted to. Now this is the whole point of the judgment. The witchcraft power in us must be broken. Well, what does that mean? Let us make it real. What does that mean? It means that your carnal mind must be convinced that he cannot succeed. We must be convinced that we cannot succeed in our own strength, and we do not believe it until we are broken.

Did you ever hear the term of a man being broken? Sometimes prisoners of war are tortured, and then they break, and they give out the secrets. We have to be broken. We will not give up. Why? Because we are the devil, and he does not give up. Did you not know your father was the devil?

            [?What?], like the alabaster box of ointment?

Mm-hmm. We have to be crushed, so that is probably what is happening to you. So I am sorry for your pain, OK, but I have no sympathy for you because God is going to crush you, and Christ is going to arise in you. And I have excellent discernment, and I declare unto you that that is what is happening to you, and I therefore have no sympathy for you at all. You cry all you want, and I am going to pray God keep crushing you, OK. You cannot force God to talk to you. You have to let go; you have to give up trying to control your relationship with the Lord, and you cannot. You do not know how, so He is going to beat you to death, and then you -- He is going to raise you from the dead in Christ. So I hope that word encourages you, and I tell you all the time that, when I went through it, I did not have anybody to explain this to me. I did not understand, and I was devastated. I thought the Lord had abandoned me, so I hope that I am encouraging you. but I see a big rod. I -- in the spirit, I see a big rod. It is coming down, and you are blessed that you have a revelation of what it means because it is falling on the church. It is already falling. They do not know what is happening, and a lot of people are getting very scared. You see, all the people that believed in the pre-trib rapture are getting very nervous.

            Yes.

You see, they are going to very nervous. They have had their bags packed for two years, and they come home. Nothing is happening, so that is what is happening. Judgment is falling; it is falling harder, and it is falling faster. There is no way to avoid it by being good. You cannot be good. You are incapable of being good. You are fallen. You are a sinner. Your state of being is sin; you cannot be good. The --

            Can I share a testimony that might help June.

Yeah, sure.

            I hear it from God. I was having a hard time understanding the teaching of having my identity because, I do not know, I just wanted to hold onto  something.

            [?Right?].

And I also, at the same time, wanted to hear the voice of God. So after I listened to the message, I drifted off into a nap, and j- -- in-between consciousness and unconsciousness, I heard, almost, like, an audible voice, nice and softly [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye appear with Him in glory. And I woke up, and I said, wow, Christ is our life. It is not our own -- we are not our own ide- -- Christ is our life, so this life --

It is a false life.

            -- does not mean anything. Just anything that we go through, it just does not matter. Christ is our life. We are hid with Christ. We are hid in Christ with God, and I actually heard the voice of God, and that blessed me. Then I heard something else, but I do not know what it meant. But maybe I will ask you. Then I heard the tabernacle of God is with man or something like that. Did you ever hear that? Is that a Scripture?

It is in Revelation, yeah.

            Yes.

            And that one, I did not understand what He was saying to me.

The tabernacle of God is the new man, Christ Jesus. The tabernacle means this -- the Greek word translated tabernacle, or even in the Hebrew it is the same thing, it means tent, and it is talking about a tent that is made out of the skins of dead animals. You know how a tent -- an Indian teepee is made out of the skins of dead animals?

            Yes.

Well, we are the tent of the Lord, and we are dead. We are a dead animal covered with skin, and He is inside of us. We are the tabernacle of the Lord.

            Oh, hallelujah.

Yeah. And to be the tabernacle of the Lord means that He is inside of us, means that He is not inside of you as the sperm --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- but that the fully formed man is in the midst of you.

            Oh, and that is what was giving me [?feelings?].

See, actually, the tabernacle of God is the Lord Jesus Christ, and then He comes to you, and He is forming -- He is making you a part of the tabernacle too.

            Praise God.

Yeah.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah. It means that the man, Christ Jesus, is coming forth. That is what it means.

            [?Wow?].

So --

            [INAUDIBLE]

I am trying to go with the Spirit tonight. I know it is an unusual meeting in that we just have Jimmy for a couple of days, so maybe I am just going to -- I do have a message, but maybe we should just fellowship like this. Let me just see what the Lord says. I was going to go over some of the principles in the book. Well, I am just going to flow with the Spirit, OK. Let us just -- yeah, sure.

            You know, when you said that Satan will be in full stature, it set a fear in me and just for the moment, but then it rose when you said that Christ will also be in full stature in us. And so anything that is coming from the full stature from Satan is not going to bother the ones that are in full stature with Christ because you said that if the hand is cut off, the hand will grow back again, so any --

You are talking about other people that are in full stature, satanic full stature?

            Yeah, anything that is coming from those --

OK.

            -- against the ones that have Christ in full stature. Nothing can happen to them, and that, kind of, restored my fear, you know. It overrode my fear when you had said that.

            [CROSSTALK] [?did you not?]?

If He is in you.                       

            If He is in you.

If he is in you. Let us not be quoting any clichés that are in the church. He has to be in you, and He has to be in you in maturity, and we are not talking about the sperm; we are talking about the man. I do not know about you, but I feel very confident about a fully-armed man filled with wisdom of God. I have great confidence in that, but my confidence in that man's sperm is not too great. He cannot even pull a gun. I mean, come on. You have to bring this down to Earth, OK, so [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- let us watch the worldly clichés here because the whole church says that, and it is not true. And I am telling you, they are going to be falling like flies. People the call themselves Christian, they are going to be falling away like flies; it is scriptural. So He has got to be in you, and He has got to be in full stature for you to quote the Scripture. And I do not know about you, but I am not satisfied with my condition. I am pray every day for Him to stand up in my, and I am praying every day that I will pay any price, but, of course, I cannot do anything unless He enables me to do it. But I am no- -- I really caution you to not quote those clichés, Mary, because that -- they are powerless.

            [?Yeah?].

They are powerless.

            I remember when I was first starting to meet you, and I remembered I was quoting Scriptures that were not fulfilled yet, and I was saying this is the way it is. And I was, at the present time, doing well, you know. I was not overtaken, and then, next thing I knew after that, I fell, like, for the whole summer and, like, all through the mo- -- the next few months. And I realized, I guess, I am really not complete in the Lord Jesus Christ, and sin has dominion over me.

Sin has dominion over you, yes.

            Yeah. I thought did not have dominion over because I have had the dominion over certain sins for a period of time, but then they overtook me again.

Right.

            But I thought I was going to be able to continue having the victory, but I did not.

You see, there is a radical difference between -- see, there is some power in the Holy Ghost. Do not misunderstand me; there is some power in the Holy Ghost, depending on what your problem is and who you are up against, OK. But for people to believe that they are already equipped with what is coming on the Earth now, that is a lie, and it is a lie for you. It is a lie for you to, for you, for Mary. Greater is he -- it is not true that greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world so long as he is not fully mature in you. It is not true. It is a -- it is something for the future. He has got to grow up in you.

            [CROSSTALK] [?just the first stage, three months?]?

Full stature is the condition that Jesus was in when -- well, it is the first trimester of the spiritual pregnancy, but, of course, it is much greater than a natural pregnancy. It is the condition the Jesus of Nazareth was in. He was the Son of God at the end of the first trimester; He was, in fact, the Son of God. He said, I and the Father are one. So anything less than that, we are vulnerable. The degree that we are vulnerable depends on how mature the Christ in us in -- is. But I just caution you, not to be quoting clichés, because the Scripture clearly says be careful you do not think you are standing because you are going to find out that you are not standing because you are not standing. None of us are standing. I am not standing.

            [CROSSTALK]

[UNINTELLIGIBLE] yeah.

            [?I am just thinking that baby is?] three months [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah. But also, you know, God could do anything that He wants, but the whole thrust of the message here, I just -- I do not want to discourage anybody, but I am going to do everything I can to keep you on an even keel of reality because the whole church is living in a fantasy, OK. And the reality is that we do not have any great spiritual power, that the workers of witchcraft out there very often have a lot more than we have. And I believe that, even now, you know, practicing witches, highly developed, practicing witches have more power than I do right now. I believe that, and I am praying frequently for God to raise me up because I see what is happening around here. I see what is happening. I have got eyes in my head, and I want that power, and I have told the Lord I am paying the price; I am living the life; I want the power. And, I believe, He is going to give it to me, but everybody is not going to have it. There is going to be a lot of people that are going to see this wickedness covering the Earth, and they are going to check it out, and there is not going to be any oil in their vials, in their lamps, so be careful about clichés.

            Do you suppose that they will be stronger before we could reach maturity?

Try not to --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- say they because I do not know who you are talking about. Give me a name.

            The witchcraft power, you know --

            [CROSSTALK]

            -- do you suppose that they will be in full stature in their witchcraft before --

Before us?

            -- us?

I think there is a good possibility of it because I believe right now that there are --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- workers of witchcraft that do all kinds of things, but that is why we are hidden, that -- God has us hidden, you know, and I do not believe that we are protected until such time as we are strong enough to deal with them. Just like a mother hen, OK, He is not going to let any witchcraft come against us that He kn- -- that the Lord knows will kill us. I believe, the Lord lets us have our trials, that we are growing up from seed, that we have to have our overcoming experiences. He lets us take our lumps. He lets us have some defeats because it tears down our pride. Like, you stood there, and you said sin shall not have dominion over me, and you found out that it was not true. God did not instruct -- well, He did instruct you. I told you, Jimmy, it is not true, but you did not listen, so He let you take your lumps. That is what this new order ministry is all about. We are growing up. We are not longer infants that the Lord is doing for, doing for, doing for; we are being raised up to do for ourselves, OK. So I believe that, if we are doing all that we can do, that the Lord does have a shield in front of us from workers of witchcraft who would kill us if they could because they know, eventually, we are going to be able to destroy them. But they are out there, and, I think, they are much stronger than we are.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah. Well, they are in the church. They are outside of the church, and they are in the church, you know.

            [CROSSTALK]

And the problem with the witches in the church is that a lot of them really think they are Christians. I know one woman right now. Sh- -- as far as I am concerned, she is into heavy witchcraft, and she really thinks it is God, so they are the dangerous ones, the ones that belie- -- [AUDIO CUTS OUT]

Sh- -- as far as I am concerned, she is into heavy witchcraft, and she really thinks it is God, so they are the dangerous ones, the ones that believe that they are Christians. Well, I guess, they are all dangerous. I do not know. There is so much that I do not know. They are all dangerous.

            [?What are our?] weapons? What are our weapons?

Our weapon is Christ.

            [?Christ?].

Our weapon is Christ, and it is --

            Then how do we use Christ?

Everything that you are being taught here, June, and the -- but your biggest problem, everybody's biggest problem, is getting -- is weakening their carnal mind. Because, you see, you have Christ in you. I have seen Him operate in you, but your carnal mind is much too str- -- all three of you --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- your carnal mind is just much too th- -- much too strong, and --

            [?Do we have to?] to kill it? Is that how He [?kills it?] [CROSSTALK]

Well, you cannot do --

            You cannot tell Him.

You cannot tell Him. He -- you do all you could do, you see. He wants you to trust Him. You do all you could do: You attend the meetings. You listen to the messages. You serve Him in every way you know how. And He knows that you are going to need to be protected until you stand up, and He will do that. Everybody that is doing all that they could do, you have a right to have faith in Jesus Christ to protect you from every worker of witchcraft that is stronger than you are, if you are doing all that you could do. Now if you are remiss, if you are an unprofitable servant, if you are not doing all that you could do, if God calls you to a ministry and you do not go out of pride or if you are in rebellion doing your thing in the world, then the Lord may protect you, but He may not. But you are three faithful servants of God sitting here. When you do all that you could do, you are in His hands.

            Plus the Scripture says that I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you, so if a witch curses you, like, it will not curse you; it will bless you, and they will be cursed. Right, is not that true?

No. A witch can curse you. He cannot curse Christ in you, but he can curse your humanity. That is what spiritual warfare is all about. I get cursed every day.

            How? By people?

Yeah. I get cursed every day.

            [CROSSTALK]

I am breaking curses all day long here, all day long.

            On purpose though, that they actually [CROSSTALK]

No, most of the -- well, there are some witches -- we did -- I d- -- we did tangle with a coven down in Port Jefferson this year, but aside from that, it is mostly Christians who do not know they are doing it.

            How do they do it?

It is the evil coming out of their carnal mind. You see, sometimes they perceive the evil. If they do perceive the evil in their carnal mind, then they just say they crush it down, and that is what the Pharisee does. And I do not mean to -- that word -- sometimes I make jokes about the Pharisees, but I do not mean that in a bad way. It is just the way we are raised, you know, that if you perceive evil, envy or criticism or disapproval, the typical person just pushes it down, cruses it, OK.

            Yeah. They [CROSSTALK]

They [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- well, they say, well, I will not think about it; I will keep it in my conscious mind, and I will lock it out of my unconscious mind, and they think that that is all they have to do.

            But you know what I do? I ask the Lord to forgive me for it, and then I ask Him to uproot it out of my heart.

Well, that is what you are supposed to do, but a lot of people who were taught differently as children, OK, they were taught to be nice. Do not do nice things; do not let your envy be revealed to that person.

            [CROSSTALK]

Do not let your pride be revealed. Do not let your criticism be revealed. Do not talk; keep it a secret. You know, just keep it to yourself; do not tell them. That is what a lot of us were taught when we were being raised, but that is not what Christ wants us to do. It has to be confessed as sin, exactly as you described, but a lot of people do not do that. Some --with some people, it is automatic. Some people, it is even unconscious. They just do not want to look at it. They push it away, but when they do that, it is not dealt with, and it starts to operate out of their unconscious mind. And, you see, now this is really important. When you confess sin, it attacks and restrains your unconscious mind. When you admit it and say I was envious of that person; I am mad at them; I do not like what they did; I thought they had some nerve, OK, when you can confess that that is how you feel and you can confess that it is the sin of pride, that it is arrogance, that it is haughtiness, that it is all these things but that is how I feel, somehow, OK, the power of God goes right into your unconscious mind and hinders it. But when you deny that, when you just sweep it under the rug, so to speak, you lock it out of your conscious mind. Your unconscious mind has a freehand. That is the way it works. When you go into denial in your conscious mind --

            Yeah.

-- your unconscious mind just does anything it wants.

            That is true. [INAUDIBLE] [?to that?].

Yeah. It is absolutely true.

            Yeah.

And one of the things that you learn as you enter into spiritual manhood or spiritual -- at least teenager-hood is that you learn to start to deal with the unconscious mind. First, you start with your own, and then when you -- after you tangle with your own unconscious mind and overcome, then you start tangling with other people's unconscious mind.

            I believe, a brother gave me bad counsel one time. He told me, listen, brother, do not try and, you know, catch every thought you are thinking and, you know, go in -- get into bondage and trying to cast down this thought and cast down that thought. Just rest in the Lord. And I took that advice for a long time, but then, recently, I am learning that, no, I need to capture those thoughts [CROSSTALK]

Absolutely.

            -- confess all that sin. So I go through the whole day now, which is getting tir- -- I am very tired.

You pray without ceasing, right?

            Yeah.

Yes, so do I. Yes, I pray without ceasing.

            The whole day, I am like, forgive for that thought, Lord Jesus. Uproot this out of me, Lord.

Yes.

            Increase Your fruit in this area, Lord.

Absolutely.

            And it is -- at the end of the day, I am so tired and, like, weak.

Absolutely. I go through --

            Warfare.

It is a warfare. Every day, every se- -- all the time, continuous warfare, and you repent of the thought, exactly what you are saying. And this is how your mind is renewed; this is the renewing --

            Yeah.

-- of the mind. When you refuse the thoughts of your carnal mind, you become adulterous towards him.

            Yeah.

And that is why the Lord is saying count your husband dead; count that husband dead, that husband that you are married to. He is wicked --

            Yeah.

-- and he is trying to fill you with his thoughts. And reject --

            Yeah.

-- him; reject your husband, and --

            Yeah.

-- cleave unto Christ. And that is the beginning --

            Yeah.

-- of the renewing of your mind. But if you are denying the thoughts, how is your mind going to be renewed?

            Yeah.

So denial is a very serious problem. So what do you do if you have denial? Y- -- all that you could do is ask Jesus to help you. You cannot --

            Yeah.

-- do any more than that. I pray that way all the time. I say, Lord, I will do anything You want me to do, but You have to enable me to do it because I know --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- that I cannot make a promise to God that I will do something. I will never promise God that I will do something because what if I cannot do it?

            Right.

So I always say, Lord, I promise to do it if You give me whatever I need to do it. If I am able, I will do it.

            Right.

But I never make God a promise.

            Yeah, because [INAUDIBLE]

I never make a promise to God to do anything, but my spirit is willing, so if -- when He takes a hold of me, like He did with this book, I did it. I told Rita today: I was screaming and complaining and rebuking the complaining while I was complaining for a whole week, complaining and then rebuking it and [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

            Do you have thoughts prepared ahead of time too? Like, say -- and I am catching this all the time. I will think an evil thought about somebody, and then I will s- -- I will cancel that thought and have th- -- good thoughts in replacement, like, you know, bless that brother. Bless that brother [CROSSTALK]

Yes. I have, yeah. I have evil thoughts. All kinds of thoughts go through my mind. I see very clearly what is in my mind, and I do just that. I rebuke them, and then I bless the person, and it is all day long, especially when I am highly spiritual, like I am -- when I am working on something like this. I am sure I must look very humorous to some people. I am sitting at that computer; I am typing away, and the whole time I am typing; I am writing. Right in the midst of it, like, woven together with it, I am casting down imaginations; I am rebuking spirits; I am praying for people.

            Yeah.

And if I were doing it myself, I would be in total confusion, except that the Lord just weaves it through as I work.

            [CROSSTALK]

And I get very intense discernment when I am up till 1 o'clock in the morning and I have been working on something like this all day or for days, I get up very high in the spirit. I he- -- God tells me all kinds of secrets about people.

            [?Oh, really?]?

Now why would God tell me secrets about peop- -- if God tell you secrets about people and you use it to their hurt, well, He is going to judge you for it. Judgment will fall on you, and then He will not tell you secrets anymore.

            [CROSSTALK]

But if you are a faithful servant and He shows you sin in somebody's heart and you use that knowledge to help them, how would you use that knowledge to help them? Well, when God shows it to me, I rebu- -- He shows me sins in every -- in a lot of people's hearts, and I come against it because I know that at the moment that He is showing it to me, if I am in a high place in the spirit like I have been this last week and He is showing me these things, I know that when I come against it at that moment, it is -- something happens in the spirit.

            Yeah.

Something powerful happens in the spirit.

            Do we have power without laying hands on a person or asking their permission? Do we have power to pray for them and break curses over their life and ask the Lord to deliver them from different things, even -- do we have that power?

Well, yes and no. If your -- it all depends on the spirit in your praying it -- that you are praying in. You have to be c- --

            [CROSSTALK]

You have to -- well, you have to check your motive. If you are praying prayers like that for a selfish motive, then it is witchcraft. In other words, if you are a married man and your wife is a jezebel, OK, and you are coming against that jezebel because you cannot stand her jezebel strangling you anymore, OK, then that is an ungodly motive. The reason you are coming against that spirit is that you p- -- you -- it is self-defense and self-preservation.

            Yeah. I did that all the time.

Yeah. That is -- it is witchcraft.

            [CROSSTALK]

It is witchcraft. Our motive must --

            [?I do that all the time?].

-- be -- yeah. Now that is witchcraft. Our motive for coming against spirits in other people must be for their good. That is the Spirit of Christ. No matter what they are doing for you, when you are thinking about helping them, then it is Christ, OK.

            [?I cannot believe that?].

Well, praise the Lord.

            Have mercy on me, man.

Yeah.

            I feel bad.

Praise the Lord, yeah. Well, do not feel bad. It is something that you have to learn because you have power. We have power.

            How many times did I bind up spirits because [?I was?] doing it in self-defense?

Yeah. No, that is not how we fight against people that are attacking us, people that are working witchcraft against us, people that are jealous of us, people that hate us, people that have all these problems. The answer is not to control the other person; the answer --

            Oh, yeah.

-- is the Christ should arise in us and deal with it in the love of God. Now the love of God executes judgment, so there is a very fine line here, but this is the difference in the fruit. If you are --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- responding out of Christ, the person will increase in Christ. If they do not know the Lord, the Lord will start to move in their life. If they know the Lord, if they are believers and it is a righteousness coming up in you that is saying what you are doing is wrong; it has nothing to do with the fact that you are hurting me, but what you are doing is wrong, and I rebuke it on the basis of unrighteousness, can you hear that?

            Yeah.

Now if you are doing that, the Lord -- you will send the Lord right into their life.

            So all you have to do is have a knowledge of it --

No.

            -- and think it in your mind.

No, it is the spirit.

            [?It is not that?]?

It is the spirit. It has to come out of Christ, and if you are not sure, you should not be correcting people spiritually because, if it is your carnal mind, God will judge you.

            Oh, but then you are playing a risky game, so why get involved [CROSSTALK]

Well, it is the ministry of the two-witness company. When you mature into that place, that is what you do. I do it all the time, but it is in Christ. And the people that I execute judgment upon, they grow.

            Wait. But I -- what I am saying -- I am sorry. I did not mean to [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah.

            If you know what is right, the difference between right and wrong, and not -- and be aware of it, even though your carnal mind might be thinking contrary to it, but you know that it is right, that you want to pray against that unrighteousness in the person because it is unrighteousness so that you have that thought on the top, on the surface of your mind, then pray for it. Then it would not be in witchcraft --

Yeah.

            -- would it?

It could be because sometimes you have to -- when you are a beginner at this, you really have to wait for a clear word from the Lord to pray. The Lord tells me lots of things, and I do not pray about it. Lots of -- I see sin in a lot of people, and all that I do with it -- this is what I do with it, and the -- I have Scriptures on this. All I do with it is I go before the Lord, and I say, Lord, I see this sin in this person, and I just communicate with the Lord. I know that it is there; He knows that I know that it is there. And when the time comes, either He will move on me when I am high in the spirit, and I will break it. Sometimes it never comes out into an actual confrontation with the person; sometimes it comes into a confrontation with the person. But I do not move unless it is the Lord, and when I move, the result of it is that that person -- although it might be painful at the moment, in the long run, fruit comes out of it, that there is an increase of Christ and a blessing in their life and a correction over something that they did not even know was wrong. That is the ministry of the two-witness company, but you have to make sure it is Christ in you.

            OK.

You know --

            [?Why does it do that?]?

Yeah.

            How do you do it?

Well, you start by restraining yourself from doing a spiritual warfare by offering up your spiritual warfare to the Lord as a sacrifice and telling Him that you really want to enter into this, that you want Him to show you when you are binding and loosing and doing spiritual warfare out of your carnal mind for your own purposes, for selfishness, for  --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- self-preservation, that you want to stop, and you want Him to show you the difference. And you have to stand still. I do not know how long. You are a pretty spiritual guy, so I would say to you just stand still until the Lord talks to you about it because I th- -- I do not think it will be very long, and He wants to show you the difference between your carnal mind and Christ, and the difference is life and death. See, when you judge somebody in your carnal mind, it produces condemnation and death in them. You could be discerning a true sin --

            Yeah.

-- but when you judge it with your carnal mind, it condemns them and produces arrested development and death. So the fact that you see a sin in somebody does not mean that it is OK to call them on it because you could kill them, the one for whom Christ died. But when it is Christ calling them on it, if it is a stroke that comes from the Lord, the result is that growth is going to come into their life, maybe not the next day, and they may get very mad at you for a season. But the end result is the peaceable fruit of righteousness, when it is Christ telling you to do it.

            That is where I am at, what you just said. I am at the point where I start to see sin in people. I wrote it to you in a letter too, all the time. And I am constantly praying all day long, Lord, forgive me for that judgment in the name of Jesus. I just break that judgment in the name of Jesus and ask you, Lord, not to have that judgment come to pass on me, in Jesus' name. I am doing that constantly because my mind, my carnal mind, is constantly judging.

It may not be your carnal mind. See, this is the difference between righteous judgment, judging righteous judgment, and judging before the time. If the sin is perceived by your carnal mind and you judge the person, well, that is judging before the time, and you need to repent. But -- and I do not know which it is in you, OK, but it could be the other one. If Christ is being formed in you, Christ perceives sin, and if all the sin that you are seeing is true discernment in Christ --

            [?Yeah?].

-- then it is no sin. Then what you say is, Lord, what do You want me to do about it? You know, when I was a young disciple, I was one year in the church. I belonged to a big ch- -- well, you know the church I went to, but there were a lot of people there and a lot of young people. And I woke up one day, and I was seeing a vision of two of the single people fornicating, and I got all upset. And I said, oh my God, what is wrong with me with this filthy mind? And I was running around rebuking it and breaking curses. I did everything I knew how to do; it would not go away. I walked around all day, watching these two people fornicating.

            [CROSSTALK]

And I was so upset I did not want to tell anybody. I thought I was this wicked person, and finally the Lord -- I was praying constantly about it. Go, take it away; take it away. I repent; I repent. And after about three days, one of the deacons in the church got a hold of me, and the Lord just brought it forth. And he said, well, Sheila, maybe it is the Lord. Let us pray about it, and we prayed about it, and we rebuked the fornication, and it went away. So God was saying to me, it is happening; pray.

            OK. So you see a brother in sin; pray for him.

Pray f- -- [?yeah?].

            OK. So then you could do what the Lord says.

Well, you could do it if the Lord s- -- you see, everything is the spirit that you are doing it in. If you perceive fornication and you are rebuking it in a spirit of pride, that is not -- God wants to develop the ability in you to pray out of his mind, and the way that happens is that you restrain yourself and wait for instruction. As you mature -- you see, I do not --

            [CROSSTALK]

Basically, sometimes I wait for instruction, but sometimes I can t- -- a lot of time, I can tell when it is the Spirit of Christ moving on me. But for a beginner, my counsel to you is restrain from praying. Or at the very least say, Lord, I see that fornication. Do You want me to pray? At least give Him the glory. Father, do You want me to pray?

            Well, that is a good start.

Yeah.

            You know what I had been doing, honestly? If I see an obvious, outright sin that is -- there is no doubt in it. It is plain.

Right.

            I pray for the brother out of love. I said, Lord, I love that brother. I want to see him grow. In the name of Jesus, I pray, Lord, that you would just bring Your gentle correction. Convict him, Holy Spirit, in Jesus' name. [?Is that good?]?

Well, if you are sure that it is -- if it is an obvious sin, well, then that is OK.

            OK.

Sounds good to me, but just make sure it is an obvious sin. You know, some people -- I know this is a way-out example, but if you think someone is in sin because of the way they dress or if you think someone is in sin because they wear makeup or if -- you know, something like --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- that, you are getting into witchcraft there. If you see the person is in fornication without a question of a doubt, if they are in homosexuality, if they are in drugs or alcoholism, a prayer like that would be fine, if it is an obvious, scriptural sin.

            All right.

But if you think a woman, a married woman, just did not look right at that other guy, you have to be very careful because that is all --

            [CROSSTALK]

That is too subtle, yeah. It is too subtle, but outright, obvious sin, yes, that sounds like a good prayer.

            [CROSSTALK]

Yeah.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah, so you have to be careful. But I know that the Lord will teach you. Now that you are aware of it, you start praying about it. Just give Him that little prayer before you pray. Father, I -- that -- to me, this is an outright sin, and I feel to rebuke it. And unless you tell me not to, I am going to go ahead and do it, OK. Then you might see something else and say, well, Lord, that looks like sin to me, but I am not really sure. So unless you tell me to pray, I am not going to do it.

            Oh, OK.

And that is how -- and He will teach you, from that -- from your doing that, He will teach you, and, eventually, you will learn what He wants from you, what He requires from you because --

            [CROSSTALK] motive is to please Him --

Yes.

            -- and serve Him and out of love, even if you make a mistake, God loves you so much, He is not going to really throw a heavy judgment.

No, not at all. You have to confess it and repent, but, no, He wants sons. He is raising up sons.

            [CROSSTALK]

And we have to learn, so we have to practice, and we have to make some mistakes. If you make your mistakes, well, you apologize, and you go on because none of us is perfect.

            [CROSSTALK]

But we are not going to learn without having experiences, and we are not going to learn without making mistakes. We are not going to learn how to be sons without making mistakes and without having overcoming experiences. We are not going to -- you cannot sin in a room like this or listen to messages or read and then just become an overcoming son; you have to go out there and do it. You can graduate medical school, but you are not a doctor until you start practicing, and you will make mistakes. You have got to do it; you have got to make mistakes. You have got to take your lumps; you have to admit that you made a mistake and get up and go back and make it right, and just keep getting better every time. And then, one day, we are just going to pierce right through.

            So that is [INAUDIBLE] --

Yes.

            -- and not the other way around [?when they tell you?] you have got to keep the law.

No.

            OK.

No. You have to practice moving in the spirit. Just -- and when Jesus said, you must become as a small child, He was not kidding. We have to learn everything just like a baby learns how to walk, how to talk, how to get control over their bowels, how to feed themselves. We have to learn everything from scratch in the spirit, everything. It is a whole new way of life, and I am telling you I am in pretty deep; you know I am in pretty deep. I get all kinds of visions and trances and dreams, and I go into all kinds of warfare. I know what is going on in people's lives. I have all kinds of spiritual experiences, and, to be honest with you, I do not think I am all that mature. I mean, if I -- when I hold myself up to the standard -- who is the standard?

            Christ.

Yeah, Jesus. When I hold myself up to Jesus, I am not walking on the water, and I am not on any Mount of Transfiguration, and I really believe that I am a young teenager. I believe, I am a young teenager, but most of the church are little itty-bitty babies, spiritually speaking, you know. So compared to the rest of that church, I am fairly mature, but compared to Jesus, I do not think I am all that mature. I do not know what it is going to take. I mean, I keep getting better, so at some point, I have to go through. I have to pierce the veil at some point, but do not compare yourself even to me, you know. Compare yourself to Jesus; compare yourself to the standard. And we have to start learning everything from scratch. We have to learn how to walk in the spirit; we have to learn how to talk in the spirit; we have to learn how to see in the spirit, that it is a whole new education. And your carnal mind is right there, that big dragon, waiting to devour the Christ child in you before He is born. You have opposition.

            [INAUDIBLE]

There is opposition to our growing up as spiritual children. Herod is out there trying to kill the Christ in all of us.

            [INAUDIBLE] yeah, right?

So Jimmy said something that really blessed me. I would like to share it with the group on the telephone. I had mentioned to him that I was convinced, when he left here a year [?and?] ago -- a year and a half ago, that he left here with the seed of God having engrafted to his spirit, that it was not showing. And he left here with some problems in his mind, you know, about me and about the ministry, you know, and about the doctrine coming forth here. But I felt that what God had done could not have been wasted and that I believed with all my heart that he -- that the seed had engrafted to him when he went out of here.

And he said to me, yeah, I guess, a year and a half later, that seed woke up and decided he was hungry and started crying for food, and Jimmy called and asked for messages. So a year and a half ago, when he got the seed, he did not want the messages. He was afraid of the doctrine here, and I remember you even telling me that you listened to a couple. You just did not understand them. I remember you telling me that.

            Yeah.

And then a year and a half late, all of a sudden, Christ Jesus in you is witnessing to what is on the messages and giving your revelation and understanding and --

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah.

            -- cannot deny the wisdom and counsel of God. Even if I cannot understand the heavy teachings of the doctrine, just the wisdom and the counsel in everyday living is, you know, really good.

Praise God.

            And it is going to help us to [?bring back?] peace.

Praise God. So be careful that you do not try to obtain this doctrine as the violent man who is seeking to take the kingdom by force. Now, listen, you cannot lay hold of this doctrine and possess it. If you do not understand it or if you do not understand aspects of it, that is fine. It is food for Christ Jesus in you, and if you use these meetings and these messages properly, the most important thing is that Christ Jesus in you matures. And when He matures, you will understand. So do not go for the understanding first. If you can understand, that is wonderful, but if you do not understand, do not labor for the understanding. If God gives it to you, that is fine, but do not make an idolatry out of the understanding. Come to the meetings; ask God what He has for you in it.

The most important thing is that Christ Jesus in you be matured. That is the most -- because when He is matured, everything you have ever wanted in Christ is in this new man. I am looking forward to so many things. God has told me years ago I will speak other languages out of the spirit. I have such faith in these things. I look forward to the day that I just talk the language of anybody that I meet. I have faith to travel in the spirit. I have a vision of the saints that are entering into this doctrine. We have people all over the world just materializing in this meeting every Thursday and Sunday night, traveling in the spirit. I have a vision in my heart, and I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ put it there. I believe that they are going to come to these meetings from Nigeria, and they will be here in a matter of seconds, probably less time than it takes you from Babylon.

            [?How long?] [CROSSTALK]

I believe it. I think, it is coming real soon --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- with a couple of years.

            -- [?five years?]?

Yeah, I think so. I really do. If I am wrong, I am wrong. I am not prophesying, but, I think --

            The church has --

-- it is coming.

            -- already set that date in 2000.

Well --

            That church has set the date.

Yeah, for the rapture. Well, I think, there is some truth in that, about the year 2000, because Jesus did say that He would be perfected on the third day, and the Scripture does say 1,000 years is equal to one day. And although I hear -- as far as the exact date, I hear that we have already hit the ye- -- I have heard so many stories. We have already hit the year 2000.

But this is what I believe: I believe that the new -- whether that is true or not, whether we have already hit the year 2000 or whether the new day is starting a couple of years before the year 2000, but I feel in my spirit that the new day has started. But it is dawning just like a natural day with just glimmers and flickers of light, and it is going to take a while for the n- -- for this third day or for the sun -- it is the movement of the sun that is forming the third day. It is going to take a while for that sun to get to high noon, and when the sun of the third day is at high noon, it is going to be obvious to the greatest heathen. The biggest heathen is going to be able to recognize Christ when He is at high noon, but right now He is not at high noon. This new day is still very, very dark, and the light is just flickering. It is morning; it is the morning of the new day, and light is just flickering, and very few people can see the light. Most people are what?

            Sleeping.

Most people are sleeping, and they do not see the light, and they will not see the light until day has fully dawned, but some people are early risers, and they see the light.

            [CROSSTALK]

Yeah, right, and the light is inside of men, so you have to be able to see because the men look like everyday men, and sometimes they do not look like men in the church. Sometimes they are not males; sometimes they do not wear three-piece suits; sometimes they are not fancy; sometimes they sit down when they preach; sometimes they preach without shoes and socks. You have to be able to try -- that is me. You have to be able to try the spirit. You have to recognize the new day; Christ is the new day, and you have to recognize Him without looking at external trappings.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Because if you cannot see Him in people who do not conform to the religion of the church, then you have the wait until the day is fully dawned. You have to -- if you do not have -- if your spiritual eyes are not working at all, then you have to wait until later. It will come to you too, but you have to be -- have spiritual eyes if you want to get in at the grassroots, and it is happening. [AUDIO CUTS OUT]

            He believes that much. He still believes in Hell though.

OK.

            But he is open to some of the things I am even telling him about Hell, which is [INAUDIBLE] amazing. You know what made him hold onto the Hell doctrine?

What?

            He said that those Christians that led him to come to the Lord, that had this revelation, you know, God showed that -- showed this to them and all these people that he reads. He has got a lot of little pamphlets and booklets he gives me to read about Hell and visions of great ministers of God that are doing mighty works for the Lord that have these visions of going up into heaven, and they see all these things, and then they go down into Hell, and they see all these horrors. And he says how can you refute, you know, these testimonies? So what do you think of his response? [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

Yeah. Well, my response to that is that God will meet you wherever you are, OK, and I believe that these are all illusions that God -- He can -- it is an image. God can give you an image. You want to call it an illusion, a vision. And what the Lord is saying to you is that what you see with your natural eye is not the reality. Hell is veiled over. If we ever saw how wicked it really was, we could go insane, so when God gives you these experiences, He is giving you spiritual vision of the spiritual reality of Hell, which is behind our carnal minds.

            Oh, OK. And they are misjudging the vision?

Yeah. They think that it is a place apart from this place, but what it really is, what they are experiencing is a displacement of the mind. They are having a -- they are going into a trance and seeing in the spirit, and they think they are in another place, but their body has not moved. It is in a spiritual place, which is really within the mind. Let me give you an example. In your mind and in my mind, in -- there are two minds. I have the mind of Christ, and I have the carnal mind, and I know what it is like to be in Hell. I know what my carnal mind can do to me. I know it could make me afraid. I know it could make me hate and fall into bitterness and fights with people and all wickedness. And for other people, I know that their carnal minds could bring them into drugs and alcoholism and fornication and all of that wickedness. So right here on this Earth, in my own state of being, I could choose good or evil.

See, there was a time that I could not choose, that I was completely overtaken by evil, and my life was very troubled. And whenever my carnal mind stirs up now, I am -- because I am strong in Christ, I just say I will not have it. If I feel fear in me, I will not have it. I feel rejection in me, I say get out of me; I am not rejected, OK. I just -- I am right -- I am stomping on it, OK, but it is Hell and heaven in my emotions and in my thoughts, you know. So if that is true, if you could believe that, and I think you should be able to believe that, if that is true, then cannot we take it a step further and say, well, there is a place in the mind which is even, a world, which is the wor- -- the image or the expression of the heavenly mind, where there is joy, and that there is a world in the spirit, which is an expression of that hellish mind, which is the carnal mind.

            Yeah.

And people that are caught in bitterness -- I know some people, they are just bitter and wicked and filled with hate and negative and unhappy continuously, so that is a condition of mind, and then that condition of mind is expressed in your life. If you are that kind of a person, what kind of people will you have relationships with? People like you, people who are negative and wicked and evil and --

            I just saw something.

-- angry. What did you see?

            I just saw the demons that they say that are going to be in Hell.

They are in people's minds, yeah.

            That [UNINTELLIGIBLE] you know how they are going to torment you --

Right.

            -- and bother you? I just saw them in the minds of men already, today --

Yeah.

            -- and they are being tormented by --

Yes.

            -- these demons --

Exactly.

            -- right now.

I mean, what -- how much more of Hell do you need? I was in Manhattan once, and I saw a man.

            [CROSSTALK]

He looked like he lived on the street, with all these business people f- -- hurrying back and forth. He was lying down, and he was in agony, and everybody was just passing him by, everybody leading a normal life, working in Manhattan, and this guy was in agony, rolling in a mental agony on the street. What more of Hell do you need than that? You are experience in Kings Park, what more of Hell do you need than that?

            Do you know that the people in there used to cry out, you know, whe- -- and they used to say we are in Hell; get us out of here, and, like, with demonic voices.

Yeah. I heard a story. I used to live with a woman who was a -- I think, she was an aid. I do not think she was a full nurse. She was an aid in Kings Park as a matter of fact, and she said there was one person, that they had him locked in his own cell, and every night he levitated. They would look in through that window. There was a window in the door, and he was just levitated for hours at a time, screaming and yelling, and they just locked him up because they did not know what to do with him. And she said, frequently, she met women who were being raped all night long, raped, and there was nobody there. It was spiritual. It was within this body. [?It was?] a spiritual entity was raising them, and she would pray for them, and they would have peace. And she did it at risk of her job because you are not allowed to pray for people in Kings Park. But she came home one night, and she told me. I used to live with her. She told me that this woman told her she could not take it anymore. She was being raped all night long, and she prayed for her, and the woman slept.

            And I found another opportunity, you know, because of the withdrawal from drugs too, I could not sleep for, like, 10 days. I had no sleep, no rest at all, and I flipped out, you know, screaming, and they put me in a straitjacket on another occasion, and I just laid there in a straitjacket, and people just started running wild in the -- and they were, like, screaming and going crazy. Everyone was just bugging out that night; it was a wild night. And as I heard e- -- all the screams, I thought, for a moment, I was in Hell. I thought I died. S- -- I came under a delusion that I was in Hell and I died, and they were all screaming. And I figure we are all in Hell; we are all screaming. And I am in the straitjacket, and I could not even pray in tongues. I tried to pray in tongues. I could not pray in tongues. I could not even pray to the Lord because they gave me a shot of Haldol. I think, the Haldol hindered me from being able to pray. And I said, oh Lord, I am separated from you, and I looked up to the ceiling, and, all of a sudden, my brain felt like it was stuck to the pillow. And I said this is it. I am going to be like this forever; I am in Hell. And I thought I was going to be there forever and ever, in that state, separated from God, hearing the screams of the agony of everybody going insane in that place. But thank God, you know. The doctor came in later on, and he gave me another shot of something, and that put me to sleep, and then I woke up, and I was all right the next day, but I was overly medicated, but that was horrible, yeah. That was a Hell for me.

Yeah.

            Yeah.

So we see, in this world, people's external relationships, the Hell of their mind manifests in their life, in their relationships, in how they live. Some people live in palaces; some people live in the streets; some people do not have food to eat. We all know what is going on in the world, so what is going on in your mind manifests in your relationships and in your life. And in some people's cases, if you have -- if you can hear it, hear it. Some people's cases, it actually manifests in their surroundings. There are people who live with rats and with filth and with garbage.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Right. So --

            [INAUDIBLE] eat garbage off the [CROSSTALK]

Right. That is not accident that one person lives like that and another person does not. So even though we are all living in the same physical world out there, the circumstances of our live radically vary from heaven -- from different degrees of heaven to different degrees of Hell, and you -- even, in fact, the physical world varies, OK. Some people live in hellish places. They live in places where it is cold and stark and dead all the time. I mean, I tell you the truth. People live in c- -- that is where they are born. They are born, and they live their life out there in areas where the ground will not yield it is produce, where there is no crops coming forth and where there is -- nature has stopped giving water, and the vegetation has dried up, and [?they?] die. Look at Africa, in the areas where they are starving to death, where the famine is. The fields will not give their fruit; the wells have dried up --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- so it is a physical Hell.

            -- over here and just let that land dry out. It is crazy.

Because, well --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- they bring all of their pro- -- well, first of all, we cannot fit them in, and we cannot take on the whole world.

            I know.

But the actual physical world is more hellish in other -- in some places than in others.

            Yeah.

So Hell is manifested all through this world in various degrees and various levels, and heaven on various degrees and various levels.

            I heard somebody from AA. I was in an AA meeting, and they were talking about this one alcoholic who made the meetings. He was sober for a while, and then he jumped off the bridge, and he died. And the guy said, you know, thank God, you know. At least he died. There is other people that are still in this Hell. And I was like -- you know, believed in the Hell doctrine at that time. I was like, oh no, you know, that guy jumped over the bridge, and he is in Hell. You know, it is these guys that are in -- suffering with alcoholism now that still have a  chance to be saved, but they are in their own Hell [CROSSTALK]

Definitely.

            And the one that jumped overt bridge and died, even though he lost his soul, he still did not go to Hell. His soul died, but --

Right. He did not go to Hell. But, you see, everything we do influences our entire family, our entire extended family. And if we have any children, it certainly influences them. If we do not have children or even if we do, it affects our parents and our sisters and our brothers and our cousins because we are really all one flesh. We are really all one in the soul, so if we overcome family problems, and usually if -- one -- there is one alcoholic in a family, there is more than one alcoholic in a family. It is really a curse, so if one person rises up and starts to overcome that curse, it brings strength to the rest of the family. If someone gives up and jumps off the bridge and kills themselves, it increases the power of the curse on the family. So it is not so much -- that person's not burning in Hell, but the -- his descendants are definitely feeling the results of his failure.

            Oh, yeah.

We are intimately interrelated, and future generations will feel it. The sins of the fathers are visited upon the children, unto the third and the fourth generation. But the blessings of God are visited unto 2,000 generations, and every human being is a mixture of variables. Everyone that is born, they are a mixture of curses and blessings and g- -- physical genes and experiences --

            Yeah.

-- in life, and this combination makes us the individual that we are. And some curses -- some blessings counteract some curses, and we are what we are, so everything that we do in our life, even though there is no Hell afterwards, but it affects the degree of Hell or heaven for the people that we are attached to.

            [?That is right?].

It is so simple that this is Hell here, but the pride of man is so strong. The pride of man is so strong, he just does not want to believe it.

            [?I am?] convinced that the only thing I need now is a [?human being to interpret the Scripture?].

Well, it is the -- it is coming, you know. Obviously, the Lord is giving it to you. It is a glorious message. It is a message of home. You know, my biggest argument against Hell is that God is a righteous God. He do- -- He is fair.

            Yeah.

And I do not -- I think that to be condemned to an eternal Hell, one would have to commit a crime that would be eternal.

            Right.

So what could one man do in his short lifetime that would be so terrible that God would condemn him to an eternal Hell? It is not righteous.

            [CROSSTALK]

And on -- and then I have three things, at least, that I could say. And Jesus is the one that taught to turn the other cheek and forgive your brother.

            Right, yeah.

So why would the Lord cast people who do not believe in Him down to an eternal Hell? And third of all, I say unto you, why would this almighty God, how has the power to rehabilitate a life, why would He do that to somebody when it is within His power to rehabilitate them? It is irrational.

            Yeah.

It is a doctrine that is right out of the mind of man. 

            Yes.

And it is just irrational. If you stop to think about it, it is irrational, and it is not like our God at all, who is merciful, rich in mercy and lovingkindness, but if you do not receive Him, He burns you in Hell forever; He tortured you.

            [CROSSTALK]

No, I do not believe that. I believe that everything that God does that hurts you -- and, I believe, God does things that hurts you. He does it because it is necessary to bring you into a state of mind which will save your life. He wounds because we are so reprobate and alienated from Him in our mind that we are killing ourself [sic]. So He will -- He knocks us out so He can operate on us. But the end of every hurt that we receive at the hands of God, whether it is His Spirit or whether it is Him manifesting through another human being, if it is truly Christ, every hurt that we experience at the hands of God bears the fruit of the righteousness of his life. And the ultimate, long-range result is that we come up to a high place in Christ where He really blesses us in our life. So God is righteous. When He wounds somebody, it is a righteous wound, and if He kills somebody, it is righteous act. God kills people. It is a righteous act.

            I thought it was Satan that destroyed people.

Well, God has cursed this whole creation. The whole creation is under condemnation, and Satan is God's henchman. He carries out the judgment, but God kills people. God told Hezekiah he was going to take his life. God kills people.

            Yeah, amen.

Yeah. But, basically, everybody that dies, God has killed them. Satan is just God's servant. If God had not cursed us, Satan could do anything to us if God had not cursed us.

            That is right, yeah.

Because if God blesses you, Satan cannot do anything to hurt you. God has to either passively or actively be in agreement. If somebody dies, somebody has to, at the very least, not be hindering it. This is the realm of death; it is Satan's world. And if Satan goes to take somebody's life and that person dies, then the very least that we could say is, well, God did not do anything to stop it. How come? God -- how come? Because God made a judgment that that person deserved death, and the whole crowd rises up in one -- as one man and says what are you talking about, that person deserved death? She was a young woman and left 16 kids behind, and she went to church every Sunday. What are you talking about? You know --

            How do you answer that?

Right. The answer is that we are all sinners, that we are born with a sin nature, from the first --

            You have got to be able to --

-- day of birth.

            -- season that up though, a little bit. [?What do you think?]?

What do you mean?

            Season it up so it do not sound so harsh to the unbeliever.

Well, I tell it as God gives it to me. I do not make things easy. It is the truth. It is true; everybody deserves death. This whole creation is under the condemnation of death. They do not need that seasoned, Jimmy. They need to hear it because they need to get down and beg God to have mercy on them --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- because we are all destined to die, some early, some late, some in an easier way, some in a harder way, but every human being in the Earth today deserves death. And, in fact, everyone that is born into this world will one day die unless the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ is grafted into us because our nature will cause us to die. And that is the bottom line. We all deserve to die, and any good thing that we have in this world is the mercy and the gift of God. If we have a decent home to live in, if we are in a warm place in this terrible weather, if we have food to eat, if we have clothes for our back, if we have anything in this natural world, it is the mercy of God. And in the same manner spiritually, if we have godly relationships where people respect and honor one another and there is peace in the relationship and peace in the household and peace in your place of employment, that is a blessing of God. You do not deserve it; you do not deserve anything. And, of course, spiritually speaking, if we have a relationship with Christ, we are blessed, you know.

            [?Praise God?].

And it is a gift of God. We all know that that is a gift of God, but a lot of people do not think that clothing is a gift of God. They think, well, I worked for it, but that is -- you do not have anything if God did not give it to you. I was watching the TV about the earthquake in Los Angeles, and they interviewed a young couple that had purchased a -- it must have been a very expensive house; Barbara Stanwyck lived in it. And they had just finished decorating it, and the earthquake came in. It was a heap of rubble, and all I could th- -- as -- I have not watched too much about the earthquake. All I could think about, I have two Scriptures in my head. Thou fool, on that -- on this night, thy soul was required of thee. And the other word is sudden destruction, and my only [UNINTELLIGIBLE] and I am not telling you. If you feel differently from me, that is fine, but this is how I feel, OK, and, I believe, I have the Spirit of God. I have been very high this whole week, and all I have to say is, God, have mercy on who you will have mercy, and I pray that if it comes upon this part of the world, that I should be found brave. And that is my only prayer, that if You let it come here, that you will take care of me and that no matter what You let come upon me, that I should be brave in it and not balling like a baby. That is all that I have. Have mercy on who You are going to have mercy because He is not having mercy on everybody. There is a lot of people suffering out there. And they had one man on the TV; he lives in Los Angeles. He and his whole family were visiting relatives in New York when the earthquake came, number one sign of blessing. Do not tell me he is lucky, OK. And on top of that, he finally got a phone call through, and he found out that his house is still standing.

            [CROSSTALK]

So his life and the lives of his family were saved, and his one o- -- his house is one of the few houses that is standing.

            [CROSSTALK]

Now this man has to have some kind of blessing on his life.

            Is that not something else, you know?

            Somebody even on the TV was saying about the mercy of God, that it happened at the time it happened and also how they -- there were so few people on the road. That in itself is a great mercy of God upon the people, the timing of it.

            Yeah. The whole thing was mercy. Only -- there was a small amount of people that died.

God is still warning us, brethren. We have not seen anything yet. [AUDIO CUTS OUT]

            [INAUDIBLE] it was. It did some real damage.

            Yeah.

Yeah.

            The pictures show it. Highways, big, tall highways ripped apart, just, you know --

Yeah.

            -- places leveled. It was big.

Yeah.

            Yeah. The mercy of the Lord is just incredible. If you saw my family growing up and how, you know, my brother and sister and my mother are -- you know, and my cousins are all dead and me being alive right now, the mer- -- why God would just have mercy on me over all my whole generation. My whole family is just about wiped out. Even my father does not have a name to carry down. Be -- I mean, the Erickson name, my mother's maiden name, her father had four daughters, and he does not even have a son to carry his name down. The whole generation was wiped out on my mother's side, and just the mercy of God on me is incredible. Now why would God [CROSSTALK]

            [CROSSTALK] family.

Well, it is nothing that you have done, but it is the election of God, nothing that you have done that you should boast, but the election of God.

            [CROSSTALK] just worship Him. Wow, praise the Lord.

Yeah.

            And even my father does not have his correct name coming down because I was born illegitimate, and I got my mother's maiden name, so I do not -- you know what I mean? It is really a strange situation? How can I straighten that out, like, with my seed? Does it matter?

Well, you have to break curses of the bastard. That is very important. That is a very powerful curse.

            Yeah. It goes back, huh?

Yeah. It goes back 10 generations.

            Ten generations. But how does -- when I have a son though, his name -- if I have a son, if his name is Erickson, that name really came down from my mother's maiden name. Is that going to make a difference on his blessing?

I do not think it -- the -- I do not think it is going to make any difference.

            I do not need to get my name changed.

No, it is all in the spirit.

            [CROSSTALK]

It is not these natural things.

I wonder if there is blessings from his natural father's family coming down on him, being he is the only one [?saved the family?].       

Any of these things could be true, but the bottom line is that God is saving this creation, and He just has some people that were called before the foundation of the Earth. And they are coming forth in this hour, and He is raising up a firstfruits company. We have got to start thinking beyond ourselves, you see.

            Yeah. [?I have been thinking?] carnally [CROSSTALK]

Yeah. This is all -- yeah, and I say this -- please, hear the spirit that I am saying this in. I am not criticizing anybody; I am just trying to expand your mind, OK. It is very selfish thinking. We all do it; everybody does it. We think about ourselves; we think about our needs; we think about our ministry. But God is thinking way beyond the individual. Yes, He is helping us with our problems, and He is meeting our needs because we have legitimate needs, but He is way, way, way, way beyond the individual. He -- excuse me, He is raising this whole creation from the dead, and we are just little children that He is patting on the head, and these things are just very, very insignificant to Him.

[UNINTELLIGIBLE] I tell you, I have been getting -- the Lord has been giving me a big revelation of this principle, if you can hear what I am saying. This is a very small ministry here. I have some responsibility, you know, but it is a very small ministry, and I know how I perceive some of you. And, again, I am not in any way putting you down, but I see how you are concerned with yourselves, understandably so, and all I could think about is, well, I have got a ministry problem. That is such a sma- -- mothers see it with children, you know. Sometimes husbands see it with wives, you know. The man is at work, and maybe he is losing his job, and his wife, all she can think about is that her dinner is cold, that kind of thing, OK. And I see God showing it to me, as the head of this ministry, that I have to listen to people. I have to listen to you, and I have to try and help you, if you have a problem, while the whole time this problem that is way beyond your personal problem is raging in my mind, OK.

And I think about people like presidents of the Unites States. I cannot even imagine. Forget about presidents, talk about heads of companies, heads of big corporations or heads of big ministries. I cannot even imagine it, and yet you have to set that aside, and you have to meet the person's need, while this really serious problem that is affecting so many people is raging in your life. And as God increases you and expands your horizon, as He starts to give you responsibility, it is a very healthy thing because it gets your eyes off of yourself, and you start to care less about yourself. And that is what is called maturity, when you start getting your eyes off of yourself. Got -- we have got to get our eyes off of ourself [sic] and onto the work of the Father. And we are -- as we do that, as we seek the kingdom of God first in His righteousness, all of our needs will be met.

Now do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that you should not look to have curses broken on your life or anything like that. I am saying that there has to be a line and that I be- -- I personally -- I give you my personal testimony that the Scripture is true. When you put all your personal needs away and you serve God, He takes care of everything, and the blessings in the spirit, the blessings that come with having your mind preoccupied with the kingdom of God are enormous. They are enor- -- and now you cannot do it all at once, but if you can hear what I am saying and you could put it in your mind that you would like to ask God to direct you in this direction, I am telling you it is -- the blessings are enormous, and He takes care of your life. When you are taking care of His business, He takes care of your life, and there is a glory in this not being concerned with yourself. I -- there is such a blessing in it; there is such a peace in it. I wish that I had more words to describe it to you. I feel that I am not describing it to you adequately, but it -- there is a liberty. There is a joy in the spirit. There is a freedom. There is a glory in not worrying about yourself, in letting little petty things go, just letting them go and not letting -- suffering the loss. Let it go, not caring. It is one thing when you hear Paul preach it or Jesus preach it, it sounds good, but when it becomes your reality in your heart, that it really does not matter, there is such life in it.

I feel I am not adequately -- except for Jimmy, I feel I am not adequately expressing it to you, but there is life in it, in these things of this world not mattering. And, you know, a lot of people do not believe me when I tell them I do not care or I tell them I am not mad at you. They think I am lying, and I am not. I really do not care. Well, some people do lie about things like that. Some people are passive or passive aggressive. They are dishonest for whatever reason. They cannot assert themselves. They are not willing to tell you what they think, or they are not willing to tell you what their opinion is. Or if you want to -- do -- if you are ever -- you -- if you are having a joint effort, they are not willing to tell you, well, this is what I would like to do. Some people are like that, but I am not like that. If I tell you that we are spending a day together and I tell you that I do not care where we go, I do not care where we go. If we are going to Blockbuster and we are going to take out a video and I tell you I do not care which one, I do not care which one. If I tell you I do not care, I mean I do not care. We are going out to dinner; I do not care what restaurant it is. We are going out for a ride; I do not care where we go. It is just not important to me.

            [INAUDIBLE]

It is not important to me.

            [INAUDIBLE]

            [INAUDIBLE] where Paul says [?where you live?] is Christ and [CROSSTALK]

Yeah.

            I have no other aim in life --

Yeah.

            -- but [CROSSTALK]

Yeah.

            -- [?live as?] Christ.

Yeah. That is how I feel. Although, I still do enjoy some things of this world, but not very much. Most of my joys is to be in the things of God. That is all that I want, and then I -- you know, I -- even my fellowship is in Christ, you know. I know a few years ago when I was still going to that church, I was part of that ministry that went into Harlem every Monday night, and I would hook up with the van straight from work. And one night I left my pocketbook at the office, and the guy who was your father-in-law, the guy who was driving the van was under strict instructions from the pastor that he was not to deviate from the route that the pastor had given him. You meet people in this parking lot, in the park and ride in the expressway, and you go straight into Harlem, and you do not deviate for any reason.

So I said, well, I left -- I do not know what happened to my pocketbook, not only my money, my driver -- I really cannot just go into Harlem. I have to go back and see if it is in the office. And he said, "Gee, I would like to help you out, but I cannot." What I wanted him to do was drive past the office. It would have been just the slightest deviation. We were -- still would have been going west, but he said he could not do it. He wanted to obey the pastor, so I said, well, I can understand that you desire to obey the pastor. But I -- so I am going to have to skip this. I went there faithfully every Monday, so I got off of the van. I got in my car, and it turned out that it was of God because my pocketbook was not in the office. I thought I would just hop off the van. I had the key to my office, go in and get my bag, but my bag was not in the office. Now if he had driven by with the van at that point, my car would have been back at the parking lot, and I would have had to have gone on with him, so his faithfulness worked -- to the pastor worked in my favor because it turned out that I had dropped my bag in the parking lot when I got in my car, and it surely would have been gone by the morning. But this man could not believe that I was not mad at him. I saw God in it. I saw. I thank God that he did not take me in the van because I would have lost my whole pocketbook --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- and he did not believe me. I said to him, Joe, I am not mad at you. He said, oh, yes, you are. And he says, come here and give me a hug. [?Give me a?] -- I said, I am not mad. I said, you could hug me if you want to, but I am not mad at you. And he just did not believe me. He did not believe me, that I was not mad.

            You found your bag and everything?

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah. Did not believe me that I was not mad, and I was not mad. I had a real peace about it. I had a total peace about it, and I try the best I can to live my life like that. I do not succeed all the time, but I know when I was in Nigeria two years ago, I was in a cab with a Nigerian politician who was supposed to be taking a group of us to lunch and then catching a plane. And we got caught in a traffic jam, and he said that there is never a traffic jam in Nigeria, in Lagos, at this time of the day in this area, never ever. And we were caught in this traffic jam, and his plane was leaving, and he said I just do not worry about anything. He said, I know that God is in this. God is in control.

            Praise God.

And he really had a peace about it, and he missed his plane. And I see how -- I told you I was trying to get this book out, and I was wri- -- I was just going to make it to the post office, and the printer jammed. I said, well, Lord, this has to be you. I tried all I could. What more could you want from me? So you have to believe that God is in control of your life. So if God is in control of your life, why are not you at peace? Why are not you at peace if God is controlling your life? Maybe God is not in control of your life, you know. But God is in control of your life, but maybe you are in rebellion against His control. That is why you have no peace.

[INAUDIBLE] more and more I am just not really interested in doing what the family expects of me, getting ready for this wedding and things like that, and I have no oomph to go along and do it. And I was wondering -- and my stability, I was wondering about, you know, if I am not functioning, that there is no ups and downs. It is just [CROSSTALK]

I had --

            [CROSSTALK]

My niece had a baby shower last Saturday. I did not want to go. I had to force myself to go, and the -- and I -- you know, the people are pleasant people. I am glad that she got all these gifts, but the best thing about the whole shower was the food. I am still not delivered from the food. It is --

            [CROSSTALK]

Yes.

            -- with the food, right?

Yeah.

            [CROSSTALK]

But the conversation, it is all I could do -- I -- when I find myself in these worldly situations, it is all I could do to keep the conversation godly, OK. I tr- -- to keep it that it is not gossip, that you are not talking about anybody. I find myself talking about politics more and more because I do not want to get into trouble, and people do not [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- people that do not know the Lord and that do not really have anything to talk about, they tend to gossip, and I do not want to hear it. I do not want to hear your gossip.

            [CROSSTALK]

Right. I do not want to offend them, so when I wind up in a group that is negative, I will pray. I will say, Lord, please raise up this conversation, and He has amazed me at what He has done with heathens that have been in a negative -- very negative conversation. He has just raised it up, not to the Scripture, but He raises it to a level where it is tolerable. He is amazing, what He could do. To not pray, in any situations that is -- that you feel is not right or that is stressful to you, to not pray is -- it is just ignorance. It is the ignorance of our carnality because he can --

            Yeah.

-- move in anything. He can move in anything.

            This is so good.

Yeah. He is just marvelous. He is wonderful.

            Yeah.

He is everything. And we still -- we do have to have natural relationships, and you cannot stay up in this high place all the time. You have to go out, and you have to share it because the Lord showed me years ago that, if you were sent to a high place and you will not come down and meet people where they are, that you are spiritually homosexual. You cannot be -- because women -- OK, well, I tell you the truth. You know, you come here, you get the truth. Listen, look at your natural example. Look at your nat- -- now do not look at this society where a lot of women are spiritual men, but look at your natural example of the male/female relationship. The man is the intellect; the man is the brain; the man is political; the man has the career. The woman, her head is all day talking -- thinking about baking cookies and giving the kids baths, OK. This is the traditional role. Well, spiritually speaking, those of us that are deep into Christ, we are spiritually male. We are in the things of God, not only world politics but the politics of the ages, OK. We are in these high, important things, and you come home, and your wife -- you say to your wife how was your day dear? And she says, well, that is wonderful. The baby threw up, and Johnny cut his finger, and that is all she has to say to you because that is her whole life, OK, and that is not bad. But this man who was in this high place all day in the office, he has to come home and talk to his wife, and what is more, he has to talk to his children about what they did in kindergarten. That is what a man does, so if you stay up in your high place all your time and you never talk to people that are not where you are, you are spiritually homosexual.

            True [INAUDIBLE] that is a good point.

            You are -- if you stay in a high place?

If you do not come down to meet the people that God places in your life. You have to meet them where they are.

            [CROSSTALK]

If you do not come down, you are spiritually homosexual.

            [CROSSTALK]

You want to be with men all the time because women and children --

            [?Oh, I see?].

-- are not where you are. You have t- --

            [CROSSTALK]

You ha- --

            Is it not a joy for him to be able to go over to the other side, coming from that higher place, you know, and then is that not supposed to be a joy?

Well, we are talking about two different things.

            To me, it would be a burden.

Yeah.

            [INAUDIBLE]

            A burden [CROSSTALK]

            I always wanted to stay with the mature Christians and only talk about God, and I was grieved to the uttermost to, you know, be around unsaved, and I would just do it just because I was there, and I -- but I -- I wo- -- how do you learn to like that?

It is a sacrifice. It is the love of God. It is the l- -- it is a sacrifice because you love them. When you come and you talk to people that are not where you are and you -- and it is a skill to not condescend to them but to meet them where they are. It is an act -- it is a sacrificial act of love.

            Well, the Scripture says to [UNINTELLIGIBLE] does it not?

Right.

            That is right.

            That does not only mean poor people, huh?

            [CROSSTALK]

No, it means spiritually, yeah.

            -- in your mind.

Yeah.

            Yeah.

Yeah.

            Oh, so there it is [CROSSTALK]

            -- to those that are of the lower mind.

Right.

            Yeah.

And you have to -- you cannot respect persons; you have to respect them, and you have to meet them where they are. There is no way they can come up where you are, so you have to come down, and God will bless them, and God will bless you, but it is not an easy thing to do. And some men in the world -- getting back to our natural example, some men in the world have a problem negotiating or integrating their intellectual, their professional or their political life with their home life. And we see a lot of families today where the men are never there because there is a l- -- there is something lacking in the teaching to young men today, that you cannot be a homosexual. You cannot stay in the high things of masculinity or spiritually masculinity all the time. Men lead, and you have to have a relationship with the women and the children in your life. And in order to lead them and in order to rule them with love and honesty and decency and respect, you have to have a relationship with them. And to have a relationship with them, you have to come down to where they are. You have the sacrifice that high intellectual, emotional or spiritual place that you are capable of ascending to, but right now they are not capable of ascending to.

            Right. [INAUDIBLE] I feel a [?tearing?] sometimes too. Do you feel that, [?a tearing?]?

I used to feel that. I do not feel it anymore. I pretty much -- I have so much of God, you know, but when I used to work a secular job and I only had a few hours, you know, with God, it really aggravated me to have to talk about carnal things, but it is easier for me now. Although, the Lord broke me of it before I was in full-time ministry. I was rebuked severely by the Lord for not -- for wanting -- for being a homosexual. All I wanted to talk about was the things of God, and --

            Yeah.

-- I was rebuked severely by Him.

            [CROSSTALK]

I was told that I could not do it, yeah.

            I would like your opinion on something that took in my house two days ago. My husband called up my youngest son. Now he is a married man with three children, and he hollered at him for not having covered the pipes, the vent breakage. He should have done it last year and did not, got occupied with his hockey playing and what have you. And I said to my husband, what you said to him was wisdom, but the manner in which you spoke to him, you had no right. You stepped on the authority of him in his own house as a man and [?a?] husband, father [?of the children?]. What you did was wrong. Was you out of line?

            Excuse me.

            I -- this is not the first time he has done it, and I was [?grieved?] in my spirit, and I said that to him. What is your opinion on that?

From the way you report it to me, you criticized your husband and that it is not the woman's place to correct the man. But what -- if what you say is true -- it sounds true. I was not there. It sounds true. What you can do is go into your prayer closet and tell the Lord that you were grieved and ask Him always to correct you if you are wrong, but if your perception was true, to help your husband to be a more godly man. But you took an aggressive stand, and it is --

            My husband has done this several times.

Yeah, but you are not --

            [?It is a very real thing?]. He really thinks he is [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- he is been the boys love him. He loves the boys.

Yeah.

            But he treats them like they are not men.

Yeah. I understand what you are saying, and it is a --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- big problem.

            I mean, he is not above calling them a dummy --

Yeah.

            -- things like that. You just do not do that.

Yeah. You are absolutely right, but it was not -- to answer your question, it was not your place to correct him, but you do have -- you are a powerful woman of prayer, so you have a lot of power in prayer. You were probably -- Mary, and I say this. I believe -- I say this to you with authority, that you would do much better bringing the correction in the Spirit of Christ than to his face.

            Actually, it was [?done?] -- I am thinking back. My youngest son's little girl, I was taking her home from kindergarten, and she turned to me, and she says, grandma, will you please tell grandpa not to talk to my daddy like that? Now, I mean, it was that obvious that it came from a child that it, you know -- that it [CROSSTALK]

Well, let me ask you a question. And I do not know the answer, OK, so if I am wrong you tell me. But is it possible that your little granddaughter said that to you because she has heard you correcting your husband in the past?

            [CROSSTALK]

OK. Then it was just Satan's --

            [CROSSTALK]

Yeah. Then it was just Satan speaking through her because she was asking you to do something ungodly, and the correct answer --

            No, she was in the room when my husband really lashed out at her father very strongly, the time I said nothing.

Yeah.

            A little girl was able to pick up and tell me the next day.

Well, then that was your opportunity to teach the younger women that a wife does not talk that way to her husband, you see. And that --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- would have been a perfect opportunity for you to say to this little girl, well, I understand how you feel, sweetheart, you know, but it is not a wife's place to correct her husband, but I will pray about it. And that would have been a powerful lesson for you to teach that little girl as to how to deal with her husba- -- how to love her husband.

            That was not the thought in my mind [CROSSTALK]

Yeah, no.

            Can I say something?

Yeah.

            What if you are not coming to your -- say, like -- say I was married, and what if I was not coming to my husband with the correction, but you sh- -- you know how, in a relationship, you share feelings and you say, you know, honey, this is how I feel about this. What if it -- in that respect, is that still wrong?

A woman can say that if she is speaking about herself, but if she is speaking about a third party, it is -- the fact is it is none of her business.

            Oh, I did not know that.

Yeah. The fa- -- in other words, she could say, if -- when your husband does it to you, OK, then you have a right to say I feel bad; I feel wounded. If it was at all possible, I would prefer it if you did not treat me like that. That is legitimate. But this was not about you; this was by an adult -- this was an issue that concerned an adult son. It was a third party, and you interfered in his relationship with his son.

            In fact, [?a little more?] than that because my two oldest sons came down on him too. He got it from many areas. He was attacked from many areas by -- he had three fathers, and I know their intention was to help prevent him from spending $2,000 on broken pipes and all that, but the manner in which they attacked him and belittled him was where the problem lie.

Well, let us try and stay on the issue. The question that you asked me was that if you were correct in saying that to your husband, and the answer is not an issue of -- as I see it, the question is not an issue of whether or not your husband was right or wrong. I do not dispute that he was wrong. I hear what you are saying, you know. I do not dispute that at all, but whether he was right or whether he was wrong, that is not the way a wife speaks to her husband. And even if you were not his wife, you were interfering in a relationship that he had with a third party.

            Well, I did not say any- -- I mean, my sons [INAUDIBLE]

No.

            I just spoke to him about --

OK, listen. You were interfering in your husband's relationship with his son. It -- what happened -- if I heard you correctly, the incident had nothing to do with you whatsoever. It was between your husband and your son, and you interfered in your husband's relationship with his son, with his adult son.

            [INAUDIBLE] never saying a word [INAUDIBLE] my sons?

You interfered with your husband's right to have a relationship with your son.

            But I told him how I felt. I never told him what to do.

Well --

            Does that work with regular corre- -- with regular -- say not a husband/wife relationship, but you are in the presence of somebody else dealing with someone else, and you see that what they are doing is wrong. Does that rule stay in effect with bringing correction to somebody?

Unless you have authority. You can interfere if you have authority. If I am in -- if you are in this house and I hear someone abusing someone else in this house, I will tell you something. I have authority in this house --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- you see. If --

            You see, that is what happened [INAUDIBLE] over the telephone [CROSSTALK]

But you do not --

            [CROSSTALK]

            But you do not have the authority [CROSSTALK]

No. You do not have authority over your husband. It -- he is the husband.

            It is my house too.

He is your head, Mary.

            Yeah. It would be like --

He is your head.

            -- us going to her after she has corrected somebody here and said, you know, the way you talked to June like that, that was wrong. I cannot do that. I cannot go to her and say that. That is the sa- -- it is the same principle, is it not?

Mm-hmm.

            Right.

            If I were doing this with my daughters, I would want my husband to come and

Tell me.

Well, your husband should come and tell you because you are the wife, and he is the husband, but, you see, despite what we hear in --

            [CROSSTALK]

Yes, so --

            [CROSSTALK] your husband.

Yeah. Despite what we hear in our society today, husbands and wives are not equal. The husband is the head of the wife, so if he saw you doing that to your son, not only would he not be out of order to tell you, it is his obligation as the head of the family to correct you, but it is not the wife's --

            [CROSSTALK], you know?

Well, that is his right.

            [CROSSTALK]

            I would think that, you know, it would work both ways.

            No.

No, it does not --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- work -- you said to me once, when you first started coming here, what is good for the goose is good for the gander, but that is not -- the Bible does not say that; the world says that. Yeah.

            If I thought that what -- and she was too harsh on somebody, and when they -- when she corrected them, I would not have a right to go to her as -- even though I am her assistant and say -- even if I said it in I feel the kind of thing that you were wrong, it is totally out of order. The only thing I can do is go to the head that is over her and say, Father, that seemed a little bit harsh, you know. If it is true, would you speak to her about that? That is the only thing I can do and just drop it after that. If it is true, Lord [CROSSTALK]

And even that is really playing with fire when --

            Oh, is it?

Yeah, that is --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- playing with fire because you could do that if I did it to you, OK. But, again, it is really none of your business. If I have a run in with anybody here --

            So I --

-- it is really none of your business.

            She could go to her prayer closet.

Well, I did say that. Well, I d- -- I know I did say that to her. Perhaps, if it distressed her -- OK, let me put it to you this way. I said that because it distressed her. Now if something that I did here distressed you --

            Yeah.

-- that would be OK, but if you just observed it and thought that I made a mistake, that is a spirit of criticism, so you really should not even be praying like that. Now if it grieved your spirit --

            Yeah. That is what I am talking about.

OK. If it grieved your spirit, OK, but you have to watch [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

            [CROSSTALK] grieved my spirit, and I really felt like that it harsh -- it hurt that person in the wrong way --

Yeah.

            -- would it be all right to say, Father, I thought that that hurt that person?

It is really a very fine line because, really, the only thing you can legitimately pray about is that your spirit was grieved.

            So how would you pray?

I think, I would be inclined to pray, Father, what happened just really hurt me. You know, I just pray for healing and that You make all things right. But you have to really be careful that it is not a spirit of criticism towards authority, you know, unless it was some outright abuse, if I picked up a stick and I was whipping somebody, you know.

            [CROSSTALK] very, very hurting, and that is what I felt like. I was protecting from verbal abuse.

Yeah. If it is a habitual thing, like -- which it is in your case, from what you tell me, OK. If it is an habitual thing, or in your case too, if you see a weakness in me, OK, if it is an habitual thing that I do all the time, that you perceive it as a weakness in me, then if you clear it before the Lord and you believe that your heart is right, that it is -- that you have a right spirit towards me, then you can say, Father, if I am perceiving it correctly, please help her. Father, if I am perceiving it correctly, please help him. But you have to be very careful that you are not going over that line because then you are in rebellion, and you are manifesting jezebel, and you are trying to take authority over the authority, and God is going to judge you.

            Yes.

OK. So you have to be very careful.

            [CROSSTALK]

Well, if it was a spirit o- -- and I am not saying -- it may have been a mixture. If it was a spirit of righteousness, then it is a question of how you deal with the incident, and you are still in a natural relationship in your marriage, and you just cannot talk to your husband like that. But be very careful, and I do not know because I am not in your house; I do not live in your house.

            I was not nasty. I did not put him down, and I just [CROSSTALK]

No, it has nothing.

            His father would never have spoken to him like that.

No, it has nothing to do with being nasty. It is the spirit that speaks, OK, and you spoke to your husband out of a spirit of authority that you do not have over him, and a spirit that takes authority over someone who has authority over them is who? What is the name of the spirit, anybody?

            Jezebel.

Jezebel, and --

            [INAUDIBLE] the spirit [INAUDIBLE] telling somebody what to do, like you are commanding them, giving them orders or something?

No, Jezebel --

            [CROSSTALK] or something? [CROSSTALK]

A spirit of j- --

            [CROSSTALK]

You see, it is not the words. It is not the words; it is the spirit. And a spirit of jezebel tries to take authority over the person who has authority over them, and that is what you did.

            Is it possible for someone that has authority over you to operate in a spirit of Jezebel and mind control?

Yes. The answer is yes.

            And if they do, even though you are supposed to be under submission to them, you can still break that so that it does not affect you?

No, that is witchcraft. That is responding to jezebel with witchcraft. What you do, if you are a wife, if you are talking about -- if you are a woman and you are talking about your husband and he is using witchcraft and jezebel on you, you have got a really serious problem. And when you are the one that is being abused, then you have a right to go before the Lord, every day, several times a day saying, dear God, deliver me. Bless our marriage. Make me a godly wife. Make him a godly husband. Let jezebel and rebellion and witchcraft be broken over the whole marriage. You have to be very careful that you are not condemning the person, OK. Now if it is a pastor in a church, if that is what you were talking about --

            Or a boss over you.

-- or a boss over you --

            Or a landlord.

-- or a landlord, yeah, you have to be very careful that you are not fighting with witchcraft but that -- and that you are not criticizing the person but that you are identifying the problem. Why are you laughing? That you are identifying the problem and saying, Lord, help me. How do -- it is grieving me; it is hurting me. How do I deal with it? If you have a dependent child, OK, I believe, this is hurting my dependent child or my dependent grandchild. Lord, please move. Show me how to pray, but you cannot rise up against a natural authority unless -- there is only one exception, and you have to be very careful because, if you are deceived, God is going to judge you. The only way you can rise up against a natural authority is when God anoints you as a prophet, when He [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- God imparts to you spiritual authority that would overshadow that man's natural authority. I -- again, I do not live in your house, but I believe that it is a real possibility that when you withstood your husband to go overseas, that if God did in fact tell you to go -- and I am not saying He did not; I was not there. If God did in fact tell you to go and you went against your husband, that is acceptable because if God tell us to go to Nigeria and your husband says no, you have to go. But that is you. That is your life. That was something that you were doing for God. That is not criticizing your husband. That is not saying to your husband I do not like the way you dealt with this problem. It is a whole different world to say to your husband I do not like the way you dealt with this problem. That is a spirit of criticism than to say to him God called me to Nigeria, and no matter how you rant and rave, I have to go. Can you see the difference? See, you were taking authority over him, correcting him, putting him in his place, trying to control him. It cannot be. God will not honor it.

            [CROSSTALK]

            So what do you do? Sorry, go ahead. [INAUDIBLE]

            Sheila, what Mary Jane experienced or say if it was June or myself, by doing that and not going to a prayer closet, we held him back [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- even a little more because we did it in ourself [sic]. But if we had prayed about it, it would give God a chance to start working on him, to make him come into the place.

Right.

            Even if he is not a Christian --

Right.

            -- God would start doing that.

Exactly.

            I see what you are saying.

Exactly. And, actually, responding in the natural in an ungodly matter spiritually speaking, kills Him. Whereas, if you follow the admonition of the Lord and you do it in the spirit, it is going to raise Him up. Now listen to this; this is a really important point. We have talked about it several times tonight. This is the two choices you have here of being a violent man who is taking the kingdom by force and trying to force that man to perform behavior that you want him to perform, OK. That is one choice. And the other choice is to not criticize him, but go into your prayer closet. Ask God to make him a man of God; ask God to give him wisdom; ask God to give him righteousness; ask God to take abuse away from him and build him from the inside out so that he is not being forced to do it your way but that he desires to do it your way. That is the difference between the bondage of being under the law and the liberty which is in the spirit.

            So what do you do when the witchcraft or the jezebel spirit that is coming down from the authority over you is vexing you? Now I know you said it was wrong to retaliate for self-preservation by praying in the same spirit against the person, but being that you are under a vexation because that spirit is attack- -- I saw it again -- is attacking you.

What did you see?

            [?You know?], I saw a person walk by, like, in spirit form twice tonight.

Man or a woman?

            The first time I did not say it. It was a man.

What did he look like?

            He had on a very light, almost transparent blue shirt, and that is -- it is just a figure. That is all I could see; I could not see a face. Twice he walked by. First  time, I said I must have saw something, and then it happened again. I said, oh, that had to be real. Well, what do you think [CROSSTALK]

Was he tall?

            Yeah, as high as the ledge of that door, the top ledge, yeah.

Maybe it was an angel.

            Whoa.

            Did you sense it was good?

            Well, blue is good, is it not?

Blue is a good color.

            [CROSSTALK] yeah.

            Yeah. Well, the first time, I was not sure, but the second time, y- -- I felt, like, a comfort, you know. Whoa, probably we have got angels walking around here. We are talking about --

Oh, this house is filled with angels.

            -- high spiritual things of God here. This is the highest form of spiritual conversation that I have had. I do not know if I have ever spoken -- I do not ever ha- -- I never have conversations like this. This is good stuff.

            [CROSSTALK]

            This is good. This is ordinary for you, huh?

            Yeah.

            That is why I say, when you go --

            [?What?]?

            -- back to the world, they cannot give you what God [?wants?].

            Yeah.

            [CROSSTALK] hang out with adults --

            Yeah. 

            -- and sit in on some adult conversations.

            This is a very mature ministry.

            You know, Sheila, what we were just talking about, I know --

            [CROSSTALK]

            -- I am guilt of that same thing at times in my life. I think, what it does, it brings resentment into men. Instead of -- I think, it is James where it talks about if you are a gentle spirit, then men are going to come to the Lord by our conversation, and I think that we ourselves are holding them back.

            [CROSSTALK] that.

            Did you finish -- did you receive part of what I was asking you? So, OK, you do not want to retaliate with the witchcraft, but what do you do about the vexation you are going through?

Well, if the authority is really moving in witchcraft, that means that they are cursing you.

            Well, how about not witchcraft? How about jezebel, more, like, a control [CROSSTALK]

Well, jezebel uses witchcraft, you know.

            OK.

Jezebel uses --

            [CROSSTALK] comes out of the carnal mind [CROSSTALK]

Yeah, right. You do- -- you can cast their curses down. You do not want to be sending them back without a specific in- -- it is not likely the Lord is going to give you that instruction, but you can cast them down. You can turn them away. You can say I break your curses; I turn them away; I do not receive your cursing.

            [CROSSTALK]

And then you pray for them, and you bless them, and you ask God to forgive them and to help them to function in the level of authority that they are called to, to the very best of their ability because, when God calls us to authority, He always calls us to something higher than we are capable of, you know. In -- someone wrote a book about 10 or -- well, I guess, more than 10, more like 20 years ago. Someone wrote a book called "The Peter Principle." Does anyone know about that book --

            [CROSSTALK]

-- "The Peter Principle"? You heard of it. And it was -- the basis behind this book is that someone who was familiar with corporate structure said that executives get promoted, and they keep getting promoted, and they keep getting promoted until they finally get a promotion that they are not capable of doing the job. And then once they get to a place where they are not capable of doing the job, they do not get promoted anymore, but neither do they get demoted back down to the next level. So every executive in this corporate structure is at his highest level of incompetency, OK. So they keep getting promoted; they keep getting promoted. And then they finally get a job that they cannot do, so they do not get promoted anymore, but they stay in the job that they cannot do. So there is total inefficiency throughout the whole corporate structure, OK.

            [CROSSTALK]

Now this is what man does, but when God does it, God calls you to something that you are not capable of doing, but then He grows you up into.

            Oh, [INAUDIBLE] [CROSSTALK]

He grows you up into it. So if you have a call on your life, if you say to you you are a son or if I say to you God has given you authority here or any such thing like that, do not panic and say I cannot be what you want me to be. First of all, it is not me. If God has called you, He will give you everything you need, and He will make you what He has called you to be, if you trust Him. So the best prayer that you could pray for authority over you, godly or ungodly, and I hope that everybody here is praying it for me, is to make them the very best that they could be with regard to the calling the God has put on their life. And when you pray good things for them and then God takes a look at them and says, wow, I just got a telegram about this guy, a good blessing on him, and this guy is loaded with witchcraft. Let me take care of this witchcraft because I want to bless him. That is the way thing works, really.

            [CROSSTALK]

That is the way it works, unless the person is evil and a cult leader and telling you to kill yourself and commit adultery. We are not talking about that. We are talking about people, husbands and pastors and ministers that are doing the best that they can, but they are human. And especially in the ministry and probably with heads of families too, the burdens are so great that sometimes their shoulders buckle, and under the pressure they do things they would not normally do. You have got to shore us up. You have got to pray for us. You have got to pray for strength. You have to pray for your husband that God make him a man of God, that the Lord forgive him all of his sins and help you to be a godly woman and to help you to behave in a manner that is going to strengthen him and not make him feel that he has to fight against you. And tell God to give him an open heart and to teach him how to love his children and teach him how to communicate and how to love you. And really build him up; that is what you have to do. And then, if he does something to you that hurts you, you always have the right to talk to him.

            [CROSSTALK]

But -- yeah, but it is -- his -- the children are his children also, and you really have no right to criticize his relationship with them.

            [INAUDIBLE] when do you send curses back on a person? You mentioned that. That is, like --

Yeah.

            How could you ever do that?

Well, that is really only acceptable to God when it is Christ in you that is sending the curses back. I went for a long time without sending curses back. I just broke them and cast them down because I -- the Lord had given me this revelation of praying out of self-preservation -- excuse me, that it was witchcraft, that it was fighting witchcraft with witchcraft. So I spent two or three years just casting them to the side, and then the Lord came to me about two years ago, and He said to me, Sheila, you have died enough, that I believe that if you start sending these curses back, it is not out of self-preservation, and now you have become qualified to send them back as a member of the two-witness company. And when it is Christ in you sending them back, when the judgment falls, they eventually get delivered. You see, if it is your carnal mind sending the curses back, it brings destruction. People could lose jobs; they could get sick; all kinds of bad things could happen when you are praying in witchcraft. But when it is really coming out of Christ, well, somebody bad might happen to them, but the end of it is that Christ is going to arise in them, and it is only a temporary evil. So if you are not sure, I encourage everybody to not send it back until you have really heard from God. But if you do send it back, look at the fruit. What happens to the person? And when you send it back, make sure that you forgive their sins.

            [CROSSTALK]

Yes, f- --

            Do we have authority to forgive sins as immature sins?

Well, it certainly cannot hurt. I would forgive everybody's sins [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- only God knows how much maturity you have. That cannot hurt. You just forgive everybody's sins.

            [INAUDIBLE]

07/09/15 - Transcribed by Verbal Fusion

07/12/15 – 1^st Edit CAS/BP