251 - 1 Part




The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
 The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.


[INAUDIBLE] opportunity to minister [INAUDIBLE]. For years, I have been wanting to minister to Jehovah's Witnesses because this doctrine -- the doctrine that is coming forth here has ministry for Jehovah's Witnesses, and I have known it for a long time. I guess, we all know it. Well, I have been waiting for them to knock on my door. I know they come through this development. I have been waiting for them. Nobody came, so they used to -- when Barbara [?Glavie?] used to live around the corner, they stopped at her house. Well, she had a supernatural experience with a Jehovah's Witness. She looked out the window, and she saw -- you know, you can recognize them walking around with their literature, and she knew that she had a ministry for one guy. He was the one that [INAUDIBLE] so she opened the door, and she said, I am so glad you are here. Come in. The guy looked at her like she was crazy. She had some kind of [INAUDIBLE], and finally I just gave up.

And about four or six weeks ago, the -- one of them approached me in the [INAUDIBLE] parking lot, and we had a really good talk. Anything that I touched him with had to go back his conscious mind though because, as you may know, Jehovah's Witnesses are programmed. Their doctrine is delivered to them, written down, spelling out in books, and they read it. Then they are required to believe it. They do not believe in free -- the Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in freethinking. They teach, and then you have to believe, and if you do not believe what they teach, I do not know whether they call you a heretic or not, but it is not -- freethinking is not acceptable to the Jehovah's Witnesses, so they are very hard to minister to because they do not think, OK. If you are trying to change my mind about something and I do not think, if all I am doing is repeating to you what is been put into my brain, how are you going to change my mind? So -- but, of course, all of these people, they are human beings, so -- and, of course, if it is Christ coming up in you, we have reason to believe that God is going to override that mind control that is in the Jehovah's Witnesses. So I had a good conversation with this guy, and I invited him [INAUDIBLE]

And then, in fact, a week or two ago, I was in the bagel store having a bagel, and opened up my Bible, and there was another one that I started talking to, so I invited him over to my table. And we talked for a long time, and this guy -- it was a good conversation because I would not engage in any debate or anything ungodly. It was a good give and take, and he listened to what I had to say, and I listened to what he had to say. But he got -- I did not -- it was not my intention to shake him, but I shook him, and what shook him was that I said to him -- well, you know, I do not know what I said, but it was something about, you know, [?what do you think?]? [INAUDIBLE] it really shook him up. He said, well, you know, freethinking, that was the beginning of the [INAUDIBLE] thinking freely was the beginning of the backsliding of the church, and you cannot have individual thought. And this is the -- I call it a Jehovah-only spirit. I never heard -- I really did not hear -- I guess, I should be [INAUDIBLE]

I never really ever heard anyone else use that expression, Jehovah-only spirit, and I did tell him. He did not like it, but, I believe, that it is the same spirit on the orthodox Jews as is on the Jehovah's Witnesses. They both believe in Jehovah only as the creator, and they both have their doctrine spelled out in books. They have elders that bring down the doctrine, and you are required to believe. You are not allowed to think, so he did not like that. You know, I did not -- to me, it is not offensive, you know, but he did not like it, but he was a very nice young man. I hope that what I saw in him, that that nervousness that I saw in him, I hope it was the Lord touching him because nobody is supposed to be [?a robot?].

Everybody is supposed to think, but there are ways -- the way you think needs to be train- -- you need to be trained in how to think. This is nothing new. Philosophers, for thousands of years, have had disciples who have been trained to think. And if you thought -- if you are taught healthy principles of logic and reason, and, in our case, of course, if you learn some techniques -- of course, you cannot really put God in a box, but if you learn -- there are such a thing as techniques, some techniques as how to touch Christ or touch the Spirit of God. And when you have faith that the Lord is going to honor your efforts, you have every reason to believe that you are going to stay on the straight path, you know. So we all need to think, and the reason that we need to think is because my doctrine is not going to produce salvation in you. If -- assuming what I am teaching you is of Christ, assuming it is coming out of Christ in me, it still cannot produce salvation in you until it becomes yours, OK. Assuming that what I am saying to you is God, my words are spirit, and my words are life, and they are falling upon your hearts as seeds, and these seeds must get inside of your soul, and they must sprout. And everything that is in me that is saving me needs to be reproduced in you before it can save you.

See, there is power in me. I might be able to produce a healing in your flesh; I might be able to produce a healing in your mind. I might be able to give you some counsel that is going to help you out of an immediate situation, but as a preacher that I used to love very much used to say, that is just a Band-Aid. It is not the real thing. The real thing is that salvation is a person, the very person of Christ. Your salvation must be growing inside of your heart, and while that person of Christ in you is immature, or maybe the seed has not sprouted yet, I am here to help you, and we are here to help each other with prayer and counsel and preaching and teaching. But there is -- the ultimate end of the -- no matter how many blessings you get for me, for no matter how long you get them, the end of the whole thing is that Christ must appear in you, the very nature of Christ, or that which is in me which is helping you must begin to appear in your mind.

And if you stop to think about it, this is what happens to our children. As we raise our children, we teach them; we counsel them; we correct them. They scream, and they yell, depending on the child. They rebel to some degree because every child has some rebellion. But by the time they are physically old enough to say to you, mom and dad, I want to go out on my own, whatever age that might be, your teaching, which is out of your spirit, which is your nature, is supposed to be engraved in their soul. And when they got out from you -- hopefully, you are teaching them godly things. When they go out from you, no matter how much they screamed and yelled and kicked and rebelled, everything that you taught them that came from you that was imposed upon them as a form of godly control, because parents have a godly control over their children, is now supposed to be internalized in the child. So there is no longer a parent outside of them saying, you must, but there is a parent inside of them saying, you must; you will, and you shall.

And so I am saying the same thing about spiritual things, which should be no surprise to you because we are told, first the natural and then the spiritual, and our natural lives are an example of our spiritual lives because spiritual things are so hard to understand because they are invisible. And spiritual things must be spiritually discerned; you have to have spirit in you to recognize and understand spirit. So we have natural examples that we can see, that we can hear, that we can taste. Sometimes it has to do with food. So God has an example for us for every spiritual principle.

Now there is, Lord willing, a measure of the Lord in you that is helping you to deal with all of the ministry that is coming from the pulpit. If there is any error, I am certainly not in perfection yet, we must believe that He is in this ministry, that He is with you, that He is with me, that He is straightening out every error. He knows there is going to be error. He knows all about it. He knows it before it happens, so God is in the ministry. The promise is that everything that happens will be for the good. What does that mean? We are going to learn from it. That is what it means. Because we are all growing up into Christ, and we are finding out that it is not enough to have an anointing, which we might call the gifts, where you can heal somebody or you can cast a demon out of somebody. These are all gifts. The gifts and the calling of God are without --


-- repentance. They are just given to you. If you are gifted, it does not make you a great one. If you prophesy, if you speak in tongues, if you inter- -- if you have any kind of a gift, it was given to you. Paul said, what is the big deal? Why are you all puffed up? Why do you think you are better than the next guy? It was handed to you. You did nothing to get it. You do not deserve it. It was given to you; you did not get it yourself. Only the one who gave it to you can take it away from you, and He can take it away from you. Who do you think you are? You are nothing; you are a nothing with a gift.

But in this hour, God has greater things for us than that. He has a greater experience than that. He has an experience for us that will make that gift, that will join that gift together with our personality, that it is not going to be something operating through us without our agreement. You know, I mentioned this several times. The church gets really upset at this, but I am telling you the truth. Spiritual things are spiritual things, and we know, or some of us know, that there is something in the world right now called channeling. You know, the occult is flowing into this nation with -- like a flood, and there is something called channeling. What is that? You put yourself in a meditative state, which means what? You open yourself up to the spirit world, and you let some spirit enter into you and speak through you. It is called channeling that spirit. You give this spirit an opportunity to express itself, its nature and its mind and its wisdom, if you want to call it that, through you.

Well, brethren, that is what prophesying is. The wisdom and the exhortation and the comfort and the message that comes through prophecy, through the gift of prophecy, has nothing to do with you, who you are, what you are, how smart you are. God opened the mouth of the donkey, if you remember, caused a donkey to speak. If you are prophesying or interpreting tongues or speaking in tongues, you are channeling the Holy Spirit. Oh, God, I hear them screaming. I am telling you the truth. You are channeling the Holy Spirit. Are you in agreement with what is coming out of your mouth? Is it wisdom coming out of your heart, in other words, bypassing your personality? It is going right over your personality; it has nothing to do with you whatsoever.

But the greater experience that is open to us today is an opportunity to learn the ways of God, to have experiences that will begin to produce His nature in us. The opportunity that God is giving us today is an opportunity to learn to think like He thinks, to learn to access His mind, to learn to make decisions, to learn to evaluate situations, and this process involves making mistakes. You never learn anything if you do not your mistakes. You cannot have a sterile experience. So I do not even know how I got on that. How did I get on that? What was I talking about?

            You were talking about the gifts --

The gifts.

            -- given without repentance.

Yeah. OK, I was talking about the Jehovah's Witnesses. That is where it was coming from. So all you Jehovah's Witnesses, now hear this. If all you do is repeat the doctrine that is given to you in books, you are channeling the spirit that produced that doctrine. It does not come out of your own wisdom. It does not come out of your own intelligence. It does not come out of your own experience. You are channeling. So -- and it may sound -- it -- I -- coming from that point of view, it sounds like independent thought is a dangerous thing. That is what it sounds like on the surface, but, to me, channeling is much more dangerous than independent thought under the control of our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ. Because if the doctrine does not become your own personal doctrine, you will die. Even though you are gods, you will die like men. Glory to God.

            [?What does that mean?] [INAUDIBLE] gods?

Well, the Scripture says, in another place, that if the Word of God is given unto you, you are a god. It says that in the Old Testament. If you have ac- -- well, the Scripture is the mind of God, so what it is saying is that any man that has access to the wisdom of God, you are a God. That is what makes you a god.

            [?If you have?] access to the wisdom [CROSSTALK]

Yes, but the reason you are going to die like men is that you had access to it, but you did not use it. You see, if you have access to the Word of God and you use the Word of God to the degree that that word, which is outside of you, is reproduced inside of you, you will receive eternal life. But if you get that -- if you have access to that Word of God and you do not use it to the degree that it is reproduced in you, you are going to die like a man because the only thing that will produce eternal life in you is the nature of that word appearing in your heart. It has got to get inside of you, OK. Animals, the animal world -- all animals have a soul. Animals are soul, OK. Fallen man has a spirit which is dead, but even though that spirit is dead, you may recall the teaching, she has been laid a hold of by whom, anybody? Who has laid hold of our dead human spirit?


Satan, amen, has laid hold of her. Even though she is dead, there is spiritual authority in her because this creation could not exist. Satan could not have produced this world we call Hell unless he had the power source that is in the -- even the dead human spirit. So we see an ascendency, OK. There is the animals; they are soul. Then we have fallen man; he has a dead spirit, and our life is inferior. And then we have the living soul, OK, which has a human spirit which is alive, OK. And when you have a human spirit which is alive, you do not -- no longer die like men. When you have a human spirit which is dead, even if you have access to the Word of God, you die like a man. It has to get inside of you. Please put it on the message, [?Mary?].

            What precisely makes -- at what point does a human spirit come alive?

He who is joined to the Lord is --

            One spirit.

-- one spirit, so when your human spirit becomes one spirit with life, because the Spirit of God is life, it becomes alive.

            Is that when the seed of Christ is formed is u- -- in us?

Is that when the what?

            The seed of Christ is formed in us or just --


            -- simply for our reconciliation?

I am sorry. Say it again.

            Is that when the seed of Christ is formed in us?


            Or simply when we are reconciled to God?

No. Reconciliation with God is a restoration to a relationship with Him. What the born again church world calls being born again is really reconciliation. God permits you to have a relationship with Him. Well, what does that mean? It means that to draw near to God would kill us because we are all so filled with sin that to draw near to God, near enough to have a relationship with Him, would kill us. So we need permission from the Lord to draw near, and His permission to us to draw near without being destroyed is in the form of, does anybody know?

            The Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost, amen. Reconciliation is being restored into fellowship relationship with God, OK. The seed of God is not formed in us. The seed of God is given to us, OK.

            You are saying there is a difference between the seed of God and the seed of Christ?

No, there is no -- well, no, not really. Although, I do not recall ever using the expression, the seed of Christ. The seed of God -- what does the Scripture say the seed of God is? Who is the seed of God?


Is -- OK, I want you to put another step in there. That was the Word of God. The seed is the Word of God. The Scripture says that, amen. The seed is the Word of God, and the Word of God is --


Yeah. The Word of God, in the form that it is being given to us in this hour, is the Holy Spirit. Is -- that is what you said? Is that what you said? Yeah, OK. So the seed is not formed in us; the seed is given to us. And then when the seed is given to us, Christ begins to be formed in us. Christ is the fruit that comes forth from the seed. If you plant the seed for a tomato plant, OK, you have a seed. Then you get a plant; then you get a flower on the plant, and then you get fruit. Christ is the fruit. The seed is the Holy Ghost, OK. The plant that comes forth is the beginnings of the formation of Christ, OK, faith. You might call it faith. Then a flower comes on the plant. The flower typifies the receiving of the Holy Ghost with the gifts of the Spirit, and then the fruit comes through the flower, and the fruit is the mature Christ, OK.


OK, just put it on the message. We will try.

            She said we were living in the apartment that we grew up with. My father was sitting in a chair. She was in the room, and I came in with a huge collie, and my father went into a rage and said, get that dog out of this house. And she said she woke up in a panic, having an anxiety attack.

            Hmm, [INAUDIBLE] she had a dream about a dog too [INAUDIBLE]

Your father was sitting in a chair. Your mother brought a dog, a collie dog.

            No, I brought it in.

And where was your mother in this dream?


And [UNINTELLIGIBLE] you brought in a do- -- was it a tame dog, or was it a vicious dog? Was it a pet dog? A collie is a nice dog.


You brought a collie in, and your father started screaming, get that dog out.

            I do not recall my mother [UNINTELLIGIBLE] dog

            Usually they are [INAUDIBLE]


            Usually they are [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah, collies are nice dogs. I do not know. Your mother is not saved, you know. I should not use that term. Your mother really does not know the Lord. I do not know what that means.

            I would not even mention it [INAUDIBLE]

You were just -- you brought the dog in.

            I brought the dog in.

I do not really have any comment on that. Hmm, collie dog. Your mother brought the dog into the -- you brought the dog into the --

            Her mother was sitting in a chair.

            No, my father was sitting in a chair, and my mother [?was not there?].

Your mother was just sitting there?

            And your mother -- you just said [INAUDIBLE], and your mother was panicking.

            [?Yeah?], she woke up from the dream in an anxiety attack.

Oh, I see. She had the dream.


So the daughter brought the dog into the house, and the father screamed, get the dog out of the house. I do not know. You know, your mother real- --

            It sounds like the father maybe typified the Father.

Yeah. Well, I do not know, you know, your mother does not really know the Lord, so I am not going to really get into guessing. I do not -- you know, I am not going to get into guessing. OK, I -- and just to fe- -- follow through with this thought, I have an -- I am going to have an opportunity to speak to a third Jehovah's Witness within six weeks, which is amazing. And in case anybody is interested, I am not going to spend a lot of time on this because I do not want to break this anointing, but I have been told that there is a new -- a company that has come from the West Coast. They are in New York now, a telephone company, with very low rates, like, long-distance calls for 26 cents a minute. And it works on the debit system; it is not on the credit system. In other words, there is no billing. You have to pay in advance. You could pay $10, or you could pay $100, and they hold your money. And when you use up $100 or $10 worth of phone calls, it is like a credit card. You just have to give them more money. So the way they are -- it is so cheap is that they are saving all this money. You -- they cannot -- there is absolutely no potential for loss with someone not paying their bill. There is no billing. There is no employees to do the billing, and I am told that the service is excellent. So I told this relative of mine that I would like some more information about it, and it turns out that the man who was the representative in this area is a Jehovah's Witness, so I expect to be hearing from him. I do not know what God is going to do with that, and so we will see. God is moving.

OK, I do not want to waste any more time on this. I just want to wait on the Lord for a minute. I do have a message for you tonight if He lets -- actually, I have two messages for you tonight. I am just not sure which way He wants me to go, so I am just, sort of, hesitating. The word in my heart, as I sat down here tonight, brethren, is that this is the longest period of time, to my memory, that we have gone without new revelation coming down, and we have had a word that there is new revelation coming down. And the word in my heart as I sat down here was this is the last opportunity, for a while, for review, and we are going to be hit. I do not know how long it is going to take. I do not know if it is coming next week, next month or six months from now. I do not know, but there is some heavy teaching coming down. And, I guess, what I am saying -- I do have two messages. I could give you either one, but I think I am really going to open up this floor to any form of review that the Lord brings forth because I would like to help you in every way I can to have as strong a grasp on everything that has come down so far before we get hit with this new stuff. So if the Spirit flows, we will leave it a question and answer session. If the Spirit does not flow, I definitely have a message for you, so let us see how it goes, OK.

            I have a question.

OK. I think, Mary has one first. Let us -- OK.

            I have questions about the personality after Christ is formed. [CROSSTALK]

A mocking spirit on me tonight. Do you remember that song, "Personality"? I started signing it in my head. I rebuke you. I am sorry, Mary.

            I thought I had it, kind of, settled in my mind [INAUDIBLE] but not only that, [?Ruchiza?] called me, and I was talking to her.

Who called you?


I do not know her. What is her name?


Oh, Marie.


            And I started to talk to her about personality, and I just did not have it down pat in my mind to express it to her, and she said she is unsettled in that area too.

Well, I am not sure what your question is. What about personality is your question?

            Like, I believed that our personality was completely going to be washed away, that it would be just the mind of Christ.

At what point?

            At full stature.

At full stat- -- no, not true.

            OK. So we would still exhibit the same personality? What --

Yes. We are all born with a personality which is made up of many characteristics. Our personalities have many characteristics, and that personality is influenced by this -- the nature which is being expressed through it, and nature is spirit. For example, let me make it simple for you. I have seen people with very aggressive personalities. They will punch you in the face without a moment's hesitation, obnoxious, OK. Then the Lord gets a hold of them, and after God deals with them, they are still aggressive people, but now they have become aggressive for the Lord, and they have learned how to lay hold of that aggression and redirect it. And they are no longer punching people in the face, but they are very powerful, spiritual prayer warriors.

So, you see, the basic personal- -- one of the basic personality characteristics of this type of person is aggression, strong willpower, strong mind and aggressive. When Satan is being expressed through them, when they are a carnal man, OK, or a carnal woman, that aggressiveness is destructive. When the spirit that is being expressed through them is Christ, that aggression becomes constructive, but they are still an expressive person. Do you understand what I am talking about?

            In other words, they are balanced and mellowed --

No, they are not --

            -- in Christ?

Well, I would not use that word. The -- everybody has basic qualities. The spirit in the person uses those qualities for his purposes, so if the spirit ruling in your mind is carnal and you are aggressive, you will be destructive. If the spirit is Christ, He is going to lay hold of that same basic nature and use it for good.

            So then you will know other people, members of your family and the [CROSSTALK]

Oh, yes.

            See, that is where I was really confused. [CROSSTALK]

No, Jesus knew His mother; His mother knew Him. All His brethren knew Him; right to the cross they knew Him.

            I was thinking about the resurrection time though, after the resurrection.


            That is what confused me.


            That they did not recognize Jesus, but Jesus obviously -- He recognized them. He --

OK. [?Listen?] --

            -- did things He did before.

OK. Because I have heard questions like this from you before, so I want to remind you again that there are three stages of resurrection, and it is really important. If I could give you a homework assignment -- I cannot make you do it, but I am going to give it to you, OK. I would like to give you a homework assignment, that you write down on a piece of paper the three stages of resurrection and the characteristics of each stage because you cross them over, OK. And I have been listening to you do this for a while, that you get confused, that you take some of the events that will be happening at the third stage of resurrection, and you try to apply them to the first stage of resurrection, and it gets your doctrine all off. OK, that is what you are doing. You have got -- what you are saying is true except you are putting it in the wrong time and in the wrong place, and it is getting you all confused.

            [INAUDIBLE] message [INAUDIBLE]

No, there is no message, but I will give it to you now. I will give it to you no- -- I mean, there is a message. I just do not know -- three stages of resurrection. I started teaching on that around 135, so somewhere between 135 and 140, but I will give it to you now. There are three stages of resurrection. The first stage of resurrection is the resurrection of the spirit. First, your spirit is raised from the dead in you. Then when your human spirit is raised from the dead, his name changes to what? Do you know? What does your human spirit become when she is raised from the dead?

            [INAUDIBLE] say Christ, but I --

Yes, Christ. Absolutely, that is correct. He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit, so when your spirit -- the way your spirit is raised from the dead is through union with the Christ, and then she is all Christ. See, Christ dominates. It is like saying there is a river in you that is going to flow into the ocean of Christ. When they join together, there is no more river. There is just the ocean of Christ, so now your spirit has become -- your spirit, which was female, has now become so enmeshed with her husband that all there is, is Christ. Your spirit has now become male and is Christ. Are you OK?

That is the first stage of the resurrection. Your spirit is raised from the dead. There are side-effects of that resurrection. The major -- the first major side-effect is having a spirit which is now ali- -- your spirit was dead, OK, and when your spirit is joined to Christ, now your spirit has become alive. Now that your spirit is alive, there is a living, vibrating dynamo of spiritual power dwelling inside of you that is going to touch your soul. And your soul, which is now dead, will be given life, OK. This is all part of the first stage of the resurrection, OK. It is also going to vibrate out past your soul, and it is going to touch your body, and it is going to preserve your body, so there will be no disease, and your body will not be able to die, OK. But you are still going to have the same basic personality. You will be recognized by your family and your friends and everyone who ever knew you, as Mary, but you now have a new mind flowing through everything that you are in the soulish and physical realm, OK.

When the mind in you was death, you had epilepsy, OK; you had some emotional problems; you had all the we- -- you know what your weaknesses are. You had all the weaknesses that you had. Now there is a new mind in you. Every weakness in your soul has disappeared, and every weakness in your body has disappeared, and, certainly, there is no weakness in your mind anymore. So you are still Mary; your body still looks the same; probably your voice will be the same. All the negative qualities will disappear, and good qualities that you have never seen before will arise in you, and all of your weaknesses will be crushed, and all of your strengths will be expanded in Christ, OK. You will be incapable of sin. Every thought that comes out of your mind will originate in the righteous mind of Christ because all sin is in the mind. It starts in the mind. You will be without sin in your mind.

[AUDIO CUTS OUT] [?mind?] will be present but inoperable, totally inoperable. It is, sort of, a half joke. The expression I use is brain-dead. It will be there, but it will be brain-dead. Thing will have no say in your life at all, OK. This is the first stage of the resurrection, and it is basically the resurrection of your dead spirit, which will have an effect on your soul and your body that we just talked about, OK.

The third stage of the resurrection is called the glorification. At this stage of the resurrection, you will no longer be recognizable. In the third stage of the resurrection, that mind of Christ, which is alive in you, OK, is going -- and, remember, that mind of Christ is alive, and it has rendered your carnal mind brain-dead. Your carnal mind still exists, but he is totally incapable of any kind of activity. He is in a coma, OK. In the third stage of resurrection, Christ will crucify your carnal mind. He will pierce him; He will penetrate him so completely that the carnal mind will cease to be. He is going to die. He is not brain-dead anymore; he is now dead, OK.

And the result of that event is that this physical body -- well, let me say -- let me go -- back up. There is going to be such energy exerted for this crucifixion, for this joining of the righteousness of Christ to the sin of the carnal mind. The Scripture likens it to atomic fusion. There will be tremendous amounts of energy exerted, and that energy will have an effect on your physical body, and the effect that it will have on your physical body is that it is going to break it down into its basic building blocks, into atoms or smaller. I do not have any of these details. And the atoms that make up your flesh are going to be rearranged because, you see, it is called transmutation of matter. Your body is made out of matter? Do you know what matter is? Anything that is solid, s- -- either something is spirit, or something is matter. Spirit has no form or shape. Matter has form or shape; it has physical substance to it. Spirit has spiritual substance; it has no physical substance to it, OK.

This body that you are living in, it is a prison house. It is an expression of Satan. It is a prison house for your spirit. It binds your spirit to the earth. It causes you pain. It causes you distress, and it is capable of producing great torment to your emotions, which is your soul, and your mind, which is your spirit. This body is fallen; it is not of God. It is part of the curse, so when your Christ mind is crucified to your carnal mind and produces this tremendous energy, it is going to break down this fallen -- [UNINTELLIGIBLE] it is going to break down the prison house, transmutation of matter. And the basic atoms or building blocks that are forming this body are going to be com- -- so completely joined to the Christ mind and whatever is left of the carnal mind -- the whole of your being which is now in parts is going to become one. It is like saying your heart and your spleen and your liver and all of your organs, which around now separate within you, are all going to be melted down, and you are all going to be one substance. That is what is happening to you, and your form is going to be completely transmuted into something that -- I do not -- well, we know Jesus appeared as a ball of light. That is all that I know.

And once you are ascended into that condition, which we call glorified, you will be a su- -- a being which is superior to the being that we are now, even superior to the being that Jesus was because He was still in a fallen body, and you will be a superior life form which will have the ability to appear as a human being if you want to, but you will not have to. You are not limited. You will not be limited to it. You will not be trapped by this body anymore. And in that case, if you chose to hide -- if you chose to appear as Mary Jane Sears to your family, they will recognize you. If you would choose to be a ball of light or anything else, your family will not recognize you, but you will have the option.

            There is always a conscious awareness of things as they were on the Earth prior to that.

I do not understand your question.

            There will always be a knowing.

You mean after glorification? Will there always be a knowing of things the way they w- -- a memory, is that what you are saying? Oh, I believe, there will be a memory because after Jesus was glorified, He re- -- He appeared to the apostles. I believe, there will be a knowing, but you have to remember that once you ascend to that glorified form, you are really not going to be Mary Jane Sears anymore. You see, that glorified -- from that ball of light, that was not Jesus of Nazareth. You see, that was no longer Jesus of Nazareth. That was Christ, OK. Christ has completely swallowed up the man, Jesus of Nazareth, and now He was a glorified being high above the form that we are in now.

            I guess, my real question right from the start was would there be a conscious awareness of all that had taken place?

I believe so, yes, not only a conscious awareness, but we will have all knowledge; we will know everything. We will not only have a conscious awareness of what our family life was in the lifetime in which we were glorified, but we will have all knowledge of everything that has ever existed in the Earth, all knowledge, throughout time. We will know everything that happened throughout history, all knowledge.

            You had said that Paul -- that he had -- Christ had been formed in him, and he died, and [CROSSTALK]

I am sorry, Mary. I am having trouble [CROSSTALK]

            Paul, he died. Christ had been formed in him.


            And, to me, there was no more [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- no more conscious. His spirit returned to the Father.

After Paul died? Paul did not die. The Scripture says Paul was offered up. You see, Paul was in -- had attained to the first stage of the resurrection, and he could have lived forever, but the Father made a judgment that it was not yet the season for men in full stature to be walking on the earth [?or?] for men to be living forever. So he said, excuse me, it is time for me to be offered up. He did not have to die. Jesus said no man can take My life; I lay it down. Paul agreed to cease to exist in this world system because the Father said you are born out of season, so he ceased to exist, but Jesus of Nazareth, He went all the way, and He was raised from the dead. Paul was not raised from the dead because he was brought to that condition of full stature for a season, for a purpose, and when his purpose was completed, the Father made a judgment. It is not the season for you to continue to exist in this form. You are out of season, therefore you must cease to exist. But we do not call it death; he just ceased to exist. Did I answer your question?

            [INAUDIBLE] [?soak in?].

OK. Well, get this message, you know, and study it. And --


Yeah. And, for anybody listening to this message, I know that I did not go into the second stage of resurrection. It was not an error. I am just not going to do it now. OK.

            Do you suppose that we have an experience or a taste of each stage of the resurrection? Like, I am --

You mean simultaneously?

No, at different times. Like, I mean, we do not attain to full stature, but we have a taste of it. Like, it c- -- you know, an experience to recognize what, you know -- I do not know how to express it, but, like, even the piercing through, that we have an experience of Him piercing through that carnal mind [CROSSTALK]

I do not see how we could experience glorification. Glorification --


-- is the experience of ascending beyond this body.


Glorification means that we do not need this body to exist.

            I see.

In Daniel 7, the Lord Jesus Christ is described as the Ancient of days. He is the one who has matured spiritually to such a point that He no -- He can exist without this body. See, now the Lord Jesus Christ, even though the mind of Christ was raised from the dead in Him, He needed that body. That mind of Christ, in full stature, needed that body, but in glorification, He no longer needed the body, so I do not see how we could experience that, OK.

            So it will be just the two resurre- -- the two stages of resurrection [CROSSTALK]

Well, you real- -- OK, you realize, when you ask me questions like this, that I am just coming from where I am now. I -- what do I know, you know? But, in my opinion, I do not think that we are experiencing the second stage of resurrection either, and I will tell you why I think that. Because if you can think back to the times that I have described the second stage of the resurrection, which is the circumcision of the -- of Christ, OK, the cutting away of the carnal mind which covers the mind of Christ, that the sign that indicated that this had happened to Jesus -- do you remember what the sign is? The sign is aggressive, warlike authority. I do not have that. Do you have that? Jesus said -- the guards were coming to Him, looking to arrest Him, and they said, well, who -- which one of you is Jesus of Nazareth? And all they said was, I am He, and they went flying backwards. All He said was, I am He. Can you ima- -- well, what would He have said to kill them? They fell down. Probably, all He had to say was puff, and they would have been dead.

I do not know about you. I do not have -- I have never experienced that, you see. I have experienced full stature for brief moments, just the first stage of resurrection. The first stage of resurrection is called full stature. The second stage of resurrection is called circumcision without hands. The third stage of the resurrection is called glorification. I have experienced the first stage of resurrection on several occasions, briefly. It is wonderful. I have never experienced any aggressive, warlike power. I have never seen someone coming at me to kill me and see them fall down dead. I have never experienced it, no, so I hope I answered your question. OK.

            In full stature experience, that is just for a season. What happens to the carnal mind that is different than full stature, 100 percent, that you just stay in it?

The same thing happens to it, except that it is not permanent. The carnal mind is rendered inoperable, but it is not permanent.

            It is in there, but it is down under.

It is -- yeah, it is down under; it cannot do anything. It can talk. Sorry, it can whisper to you, but it has no power to make you sin.

            And for that particular season, if it was just for an hour, that -- for that solid hour, all I can do is whisper. Is that what you are saying?

It -- if it whispers to -- the few times that I have experienced it, it did not even talk to me, but, I believe, it can because of the temptation, OK. But I have had at least four or five experiences, and it is e- -- it is just wonderful. I was fully aware that I was pushed into the background and that Christ was right up in front. He was talking through me. He was using my body. He was doing whatever He wanted to do, and I was an observer. In my own body, I was an observer, and it is a feeling of peace, and it is a feeling of safety. It is a wonderful feeling. You are totally protected. It was really great. Let me see, I will -- the first time that it happened -- let me see, it happened a few times. I think, the first time that it happened, my pastor was having a heart attack, and God raised up a whole team to minister healing to him, and I was the one that was getting the discernment. It was like we were a team, a surgical team in the hospital. I was getting the discernment. I was speaking it to somebody else, and there was a whole line and -- that -- people that were praying for him, it was going right down the line. And he was healed that night, and -- but the Lord caught me up.

You see, every time God gives you an experience, a spiritual experience, it is not for kicks. God does not do anything for kicks. Everything He does is for a specific purpose, and I was caught up to heal this man. For whatever God's reason, I was the one that He -- probably because I was spiritually developed enough for it. There would not be any other reason. God is no respecter of persons. I was caught up to a high place where I could hear from God to receive the discernment, so I was part of a team that saved that man's life, and I stayed up -- that time, I stayed up for a long time. I stayed up for a whole week. That was the only time I ever stayed up for a week.

Then the next time I was caught up for the purposes of deliverance, and we got thrown out of that church because of what -- or at least partially because of what God did through me. There was a woman there who could not seem to get delivered. She had a religious spirit. You know, she was just going on and on, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. She was really hysterical, and as I recall, her daughter had been raped and wound up in an insane asylum from the incident. And she was a believer, and, I guess, she could not deal with the fact that that happened to her daughter, and no one could deliver -- they were not -- the deliverance workers were not getting anywhere. She was just hysterical with this Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, frantic, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.

And I, pretty much -- well, that was a much larger congregation than here, but I, pretty much, minded my own business, you know. If I see somebody else is working on someone, I do not go barging in. I, pretty much, move -- even those days, and that was a long time ago, I moved in the Spirit. But one of the workers that was trying to help this woman came over to me and just told me the details. I was not looking for anything. I did not have anything to do. I was just walking around, and I said, oh, really? You know, and I just looked at her. So the Lord was moving to bring me in, and then, all of a sudden, when -- let me make this very clear to you. When the Lord chooses to manifest in you to that measure, He does not ask your permission; He does not give you any warning. You are His property, and He just does it, and I did not know what hit me. I was forced to the background. He came up to the front, and I went over to that woman, and I stuck my finger in her face. And I said, sister -- [?no?], I said, sister, are you bitter towards God for letting that ha- -- and I absolutely hounded that woman. I said, are you bitter towards God for letting it -- for Him letting that happen to your daughter? And her mouth opened, and her eyes [?wise?] -- [UNINTELLIGIBLE] wide as saucers, and she was just staring at me, and I hounded her. I said, are you bitter? Answer me. Are you bitter towards God? And the woman just -- she absolutely started to freak. She started to shake, and the next thing I know, she was down on the floor moaning and wailing and groaning, and the deliverance came forth.

You see, they were not praying for the right thing. She had not confessed her sin. She was bitter towards God for what happened, and it was bla- -- she was in torment because of what happened to her daughter, but it was not obvious that her problem was that she was bitter and unforgiving towards God. And I remember try- -- the pastor was right there. God did it in front of two witnesses. The pastor was standing right there. I remember seeing his eyes; they were like saucers. I could see the whites of his eyes, to- -- he was in absolute shock at what happened, and the pastor of the church, which was in the Bronx, was standing right there. And the pastor of the church was not too happy with the ministry that was coming forth, and when that happened, he told Charlie. He said, do not come back tomorrow night, but the woman got delivered. And pastor, you know, he told me about it. He said, I told that man. That was God. I was standing right there. He said, this was my church, and I was in charge, and I am telling you, that was God coming through that woman. So we just did not come back that next night, but I had nothing to do with that. My body and my mouth was completely taken over and used of the Lord, and that woman was set free.

And then another time that it happened, it was a similar occasion in Harlem, in the Harlem ministry. A woman, a pastor came in, she had had a voodoo curse put on her, and the Lord just hit me, man, just took over completely. She -- and she did get -- what an awesome deliverance? I could not even believe what was going on there, but she got delivered too, and I got attacked during the difference. She went down on the floor. I went down on my knees, and I got attacked with the [?sciatica?]. I could not get up. I had to be carried out of that church. The woman got delivered, but I was carried out of the church. I am laughing now; it was not funny. And I had to go to work the next day, and I was in agony, but I got healed. I went into church the next night, and they prayed for me, and I got healed.

And then the next time that it happened to me was another awesome -- that was the most awesome experience. I was at -- it turned out to be a social gathering, and it turned into a deliverance session. It is OK. It turned into a deliverance session, and this man's whole life was changed. I could not see any change in him at all. He was a very mentally ill man, and the Lord was talking through me, talking to the man, talking to his wife, and I was just in the back. It was amazing, and I could not see any change in the man. When I walked out of there, you could see he still was not in his right mind. But I saw him two years later, and his whole life had turned around. So -- but before we left, after the deliverance came forth, it was raining. I -- all I could tell you is that I felt waves of energy pulsating out of my whole body, out of my hands, out of my head. I was so high, and I was going around praying for everybody. It was raining inside of the room, and I know one -- John. I remember John Young. He said, wow, I have never seen anything like this in a private house.

That was the night that it was like a party game. The deliver- -- they were pre- -- they were playing, you know, like a party game. And the Lord said to me, this man, I have heavy deliverance for him, and I could not get there because everybody was fighting to be the big shot, which happens with young Christians sometimes. And I said, Lord, if that was You speaking to me, then You tell them that I am the one to pray because I am not getting into any kind of an argument with anybody. I do not have the patience for this junk. If I am hearing from You, if I am the vessel that You raise up, You move them out of the way, otherwise I am not doing a thing. And this guy, John, he was taking the lead, and he stopped right dead in what he was doing. I will never forget his face. I give him credit for it, and he looked up, and he said, you know what the Lord just said to me? He just said someone else is supposed to be praying, not me. He was incredulous. He could not believe it. I said, that is right, John; it is me. And he backed off, you know, and that man really got help that night, and it was not me. The Lord was fully up in me. I felt my personality in the background. I was walking around talking to people, and it was not even me talking, but that was a spirit of rejoicing there. That was wonderful. It was really marvelous.

And the last time it happened to me, this -- I go through -- for years, these incidents are years apart, you know.


It was not me. The Lord had taken hold of my vocal cords. He was speaking through me. He was living through me.


Oh, I was fully aware of it, but I was an observer. It was not my mind or anything. I was just pushed to the background. And the last time was recently when the Lord challenged -- this last time was really exciting because the Lord challenged someone who was a worker of witchcraft, and, again, He never asks my permission; He never tells me when it is about to happen. And it was something that you would see on the TV or in the movies. Have you ever seen an incident of someone with multiple personalities, and they say, I want to talk to the other personality, and the person closes their eyes, and then they open their eyes, and the other person is there? That was what happened to me this last time. I was not even aware that my eyes had closed. All I knew is that everything went black, and I felt my body swinging around, and then I remember my eyes opening, and I was face-to-face with this man, and I kne- -- I was looking right in his eyes, and I knew I was challenging him. And I remember thinking, if this is not God, I am out of my mind because I am in bad trouble. And it was just an outright challenge. I just stared him down, very bold.

And it took me a cou- -- I had to pray about it for a couple of weeks. I did not realize why everything went black. I did not really understand what happened, and then I realized that my eyes had cl- -- I remembered my eyes opening, OK, but when everything went black, I did not realize they had closed, so it was like a classic situation. And I felt so safe; I was just back behind Him. Yeah?

            In the case of a Christian with multiple personalities, when Christ begins to be formed in them, the dif- -- various personalities will just adjust [?just?] --

They have to fuse. Whether you are in Christ or whether you are in the world, the treatment for multiple personalities is fusion. They have to fuse. They cannot be split like that. There has to be one personality to one body. They have to fuse. Did I answer your question? Yeah.

            Was that an imparted anointing that you had at that time? Was that an imparted anointing, or is it --


            -- imputed, or --

Well, I -- it is hard to say. I think, it must -- it had to be an imputed anointing. If it was not -- I do not know. I get all mixed up. Was it imparted, or was it imputed? It was probably imputed because I am not in full stature. It would have -- it -- yeah, if it is temporary, it is imputed, yeah. Imp- -- and with an imparted anointing, the -- when you start to ascend in an imparted anointing, you do not lose it, or an imparted anointing is based on experience, so that cannot come and go. You see, for me to appear in full stature like that, I had not ascended. Let me put this on the board for you.


OK. Look, what I just described to you is an ascension. It is an ascension. So let us say this is me; this is Sheila. This is the person of Sheila, and I have a spiritual maturity. Let us -- see, this is carnality here, and I have a spiritual maturity that ascends this high above carnality. Everybody with me?

            [?I think so?].

OK. For me to have the experiences that I just described to you -- or the experiences that I just described to you occurred up here, experience full stature. So for me to have this experience, I had to jump up here, so I jumped up there, but all this in here is air. It is like standing on a foundation of air. I could only sustain it temporarily. There was no foundation to get up this high. Does anybody not know what I am talking about? I was floating in the air, so eventually I had to come down. The -- where is the --

            [?It was on the?] shelf [INAUDIBLE]

OK. This is no good, ladies. Whoever set this up, this is no good. I am tripping over here, OK.


OK. So the imparted anointing -- for me to have an imparted anointing -- now, remember, the way I got to here -- how did I get to here? With experiences, with overcoming experiences, OK. And then I made this jump up here, and there is no experience. I was on air, OK, so that is why it is imputed. For this to be imparted, my experiences would have to --

            Fill in [INAUDIBLE]

-- fill in, so that is basically the difference. OK, so it would have had to have been imputed, OK, because if I got up there by experience, I would have stayed up there. I did not get up there by experience. I was caught up for the specific purpose of the Lord for that moment.


            Did we say one time that you can have the imparted anointing in certain areas --


            -- but the imputed in other areas?

Yes, that is true.

            So, like, a part of your mind could be --


            -- the imparted Christ --

Yes, that is true.

            -- while the other parts of the mind are not yet.

That is correct, but this was an experience that went beyond, that transcended my experience. I took a big jump way beyond. It is like, let us say, I was up to the third step on a ladder, and, all of a sudden, I was jumped up to the 15th step. I could not stay up there. I did not know how to function up there. I did not know how to survive up there. I did not have the experience to shore me up, so I had to come down.

            So then you are saying the exp- -- where -- your level that you were at was the level that you were growing at, and that was --


            -- this -- that was from seed.


            But the other was not from seed --


            -- but, nevertheless, it was full stature --

It was full sta- --

            -- for the purposes --

Of God.

            -- of Christ, and Christ overrode your will at the time.


            And when it was done, you came back down and continued growing at your --

Right, exactly.

            -- seed experience, right?


            OK. So how -- can you explain to me how you know that you were in full stature rather than just caught up to a high experience, yet not full stature?

Because, and this is the revelation I am walking in. You know, maybe it will turn out that I am wrong, but I thought it was full stature because I completely lost control over my body and my voice. I was taken over. The Lord possessed me completely.


I was aware that I was in the background and that I was an observer.

            So we could say that the definition of full stature is that Christ totally possessing --


            -- your body and mind.

Yes, full possession. Full posse- -- and soul, full possession. And this is the teaching that is coming down here, recently, as the living soul matures. Let me back up a little. Let me take this from the beginning. Our natural example is children. Children, even though their bodies demonstrate either male or female, pretty much, are sexless. Children, 1, 2, 3, what, up to 5, 6, 7, 8, maybe even more than that, maybe even up to 10 or 11 years old, basically, are neuter. They are neuter. Anybody object to this, what I am saying? The living soul is maturing, and we have been largely neuter all of these thousands of years. What does that mean? It means we have not been ex- -- as a soul, we have not been expressing either 100 percent evil or 100 percent righteousness. We have the potential to express either 100 percent righteousness or 100 percent evil, but we have been neuter, meaning that we have expressed neither in its fullness. Is everybody OK? We are reaching puberty. This is the word God has given me. Do not look at me like that. I see these eyes in the spirit. There is clearly a Scripture that says, you were -- it was the time for love. In one of the prophets, it says you were ready for -- [UNINTELLIGIBLE] I think it is in Isaiah. The Lord looked upon us, and we were ready for love. It was the time of love, and I think it is also mentioned in the Song of Solomon.


Yeah, well, it is in the Song of Solomon, but it is also -- I th- -- it is either Isaiah or J- -- it is in I- -- I am pretty sure it is in Isaiah, was ready for the time of love or ready for love, and what that means is that the living soul is growing up, and we are about to be brought to a condition -- each individual is about to be brought to a condition where they shall be expressing 100 percent either male or female. And if you are a member of the living soul that is expressing 100 percent male, you will be what, 100 percent what?


Righteous. And if you are a vessel that will be expressing 100 percent female, you will be 100 percent --




Pure evil. And this condition will exist on the Earth for a season until the good swallows up the evil. The living soul is growing up. Look, either Satan is going to possess you completely and marry you by her carnal mind, or Christ is going to possess you completely because that complete possession is a marriage. You never heard this preached in the local church. I am telling you, it is the truth; get ready. And God is calling His people; He is calling to His church. He is saying, enter into the preparation that is going to enable Me to possess you completely, because if I do not possess you completely, Satan will possess you completely. You see, the default is to the carnal mind. If you do nothing, in the hour of the catching up, the carnal mind will possess you completely. For Christ to be the one possessing you or for Christ to be your bridegroom, you have to go against the flow; you have to push against the pricks; you have to fight against the f- -- the hurricane. If you do nothing, you will be taken in marriage by the carnal mind.

            When that happens with a person, that they become full-blown, 100 percent manifestation of Satan and they are female --

You mean in a female body, or you mean spiritually female?

            I meant spiritually --

Oh, OK.

            -- that they are full-blown, 100 percent Satan. When -- how can they -- will it take a full-blown son of God to be able to get them out of that --

I would --

            That particular vessel, is it possible for a full-blown male to get that person out and reconciled back to the Father?

I do not ha- -- I have not heard from the Lord on this, but my opinion at this point is no. Once they go to that stage, their vessel is to be discarded. That is my opinion, but I have not heard that from the Lord. I want to make that very clear. I have not heard that from the Lord. So there is going to be a lot of work to do. Now, remember, I just rebuke fear everywhere. Now, look, remember, this is not about to happen overnight. It is not happening overnight. The peoples of the Earth are going to see it as it is happening. There will be opportunities to run to Christ; there will be opportunities to run into the protection of those who are already in full stature. Do not panic; God is merciful. Do not panic, everybody. I rebuke panic. This is going to be happening over a long period of time. It is going to be happening slowly.

            The question comes up about the book that I read that had to do with the witchcraft that was some -- so strong, where the person is in a coven, and they are totally -- that Satan has those that are 100 percent given over to him, that the actual human flesh changes, and they change into -- what was it that they were talking about? Werewolves.

Yeah, a werewolf.

            And the woman that was ministering was saying that she never prayed down destruction on the werewolf because there was still a human spirit inside that werewolf. And after the manifestation was done, it would go back to human flesh.


            And she said these are 100 percent given over to Satan, and whenever he chooses, he just manifests and appears to whatever it is, the werewolf or the zombie or the vampire. And so my question is, she feels that they are 100 percent given over, possession of Satan, and yet that their human spirit is in there, and they are able to be reconciled to God. So I wanted your opinion on that.

I cannot argue with her. I c- -- but this is what is in my heart, you know. And she may be right, and I be -- may be wrong, but I just exhort you to recognize that she is not 100 percent right.


OK. She cannot possibly be 100 percent right. I do not believe it is possible for her to be 100 percent right, and I do know that you told me one thing out of that book that I completely disagree with. I -- as far as I am concerned, this not an opinion. You know, she is just wrong, so she may be right about this particular issue, or she may be wrong. I do not know. Let God tell you the truth.

            Yeah, OK.

You know, because -- well, let me say this. This just popped into my mind, that, yes, I agree, there is a human spirit in there, OK, and we know that when that person -- we know that if a person is given completely over to the evil, they will not have eternal life, so they will eventually die. And when they eventually die, the human spirit returns to the Father, so the Lord will get His human spirit back, but the whole person will have to die for Him to get it back. You see, what is happening in this hour is that the human spirits of men are the captives of Satan and the carnal mind, but God is getting His human spirits free without killing the individual. That is the Lord's goal, to get the human spirit back without killing the individual. But in a person like this that is completely given over, in my opinion, the only way to get that human spirit back is to kill the individual.

And as another witness, I go back to natural Israel, OK, and the strong civil war that natural Israel was under, that if the person was in sin, they had to be stoned to death. The only way to protect the rest of Israel from being contaminated was the death of the individual that had been given over to the sin, and that is how I see it right now. Did I make that clear?


OK. And let me remind you, for someone to be completely married or completely filled up with evil, this is a process that happens little -- it is not going to happen overnight. It is a process that is going to happen little by little, and every step of the way, the people involved in this will have an opportunity to repent. Every step of the way, there will be opportunities to repent. The Scripture clearly states that there will be some men who are brute beasts, who are good nor nothing but to be burned. So as I continue to minister on it, Rita, if feel a very strong witness that what she is saying is not true.

            In your -- h- -- in your opinion, do you feel that those -- that how -- that change over, are they indeed 100 percent given over?

I do not know.

            Or ma- -- is it possible that they are not really 100 percent given over?

That is possible. The thought occurred to me that they --

            And --

-- could be pretty far gone but not married, you know. So -- but I do not know where the line is, at which point, you know, you are so given over that the Lord just turns away from you.


I do not know where that line is.

            Because that one which was married to Satan. She was a bride. She is one of   the high brides, and she got out, so -- but she said that, deep in her heart, she was never 100 percent sold out, so, you know, she was not. But she -- they were saying that about the ones that their actual flesh would change. But I  won- -- and I wonder if there is a time [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- a time limit, that it is not even possible yet, that -- is there an age and we have not come to that full age where a 100 percent could not even happen either way at all?

Oh, I believe that. I mean, the door has not opened yet. [CROSSTALK]

            If the door has not opened, then has the door not opened for the full manifestation of Satan either?

That is very possible.

            You know, so I question that also.

Right, so that is very possible.

            I mean, I am -- I do not doubt that there are zombies, vampires, and I believe that, that they can actually change the human flesh, but they go back, you   know, and whatever it used for the purpose. But, I mean, could it even be that he goes into full stature, and then, for a season, for whatever, and then he goes back down, similar to this? And, yet --


            -- we have not experienced full stature 100 percent forever.

Right. It is all possible.

            So I do not know. I question if we are in that age yet, when that [CROSSTALK]

I [?would not?] -- I do not believe we are in that age yet.


            Where a person could be 100 percent sold out to Satan?

No, I do not think it has happened yet.


[UNINTELLIGIBLE] sold out -- I would not use the word sold out. My word is married, that your soul married to him.

            But the full possession of --

The total pos- -- full marriage or total possession. When you are totally possessed, the only for the Lord to get His Spirit back is to kill the vessel. That is how I see it right now, but we will find out. So are you afraid, Rita? Did I upset you? Did I so- -- there is a wrong spirit here. Somebody is afraid, or are you upset over what I said? Did it stress you out in any way?

            Well, this talk about [?this thing?], I have questions about [CROSSTALK]

Are you putting that on the message, please? Yeah.

            I have questions about it, and it is an area that is -- that I still have fears about, but it is not about the --

Oh, it is fear.

            -- not necessarily about this particular thing. It is just about the whole general subject, bothers me.

Specifically what?

            About witchcraft to this measure.


            The whole subject.

It stresses you, yeah.


I can appreciate that.

            Because it is so far beyond my -- it is just so far beyond in the evil spiritual world, and it -- and I have fears about it, yes. I confess that.

OK, well, let me pray for you, OK


I rebuke your fear. In the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ, I curse every root of fear in you. I break every family line curse of fear, and I rebuke every manifesting spirit. And I command you to come out of this woman and to loose her and to let her go, and I ask You, Father, for an increase in Chr- -- [AUDIO CUTS OUT]

Because the Scripture says that perfect love casteth out all fear, so I just pray that -- the bones of Christ were disintegrating. Did anybody discern it? Did anybody discern the weakening of the anointing? OK, what happened was -- did you discern the weakening of the anointing?

            I was falling asleep.

OK, you did not discern it. Celia discerned it.

            [?She is concerned?].


            There is too much concern. There is, like, a worry. [CROSSTALK] I felt it.

OK. Did you discern the breaking of the anointing? OK. What happened was we had a spirit of fear manifest in here. Now, of course, this was not from any conscious effort on the part of our sister here, but fear manifested in her, and fear opposes the Spirit of God. Now the Scripture says perfect love, which is the agape love of the Lord Jesus Christ, casteth out fear. Therefore, if fear starts to -- fear started to manifest and attempted to cast out perfect love, which is Christ, OK. So what happened was that Christ rose up in me. You see, it was hidden; it was secret; it was in the realm of the spirit. Whether or not she was aware of it, I do not know. Even if she was aware of it, whether or not she had the presence of mind to rebuke it, I do not know. Maybe it was overtaking her. I do not know. But the way the Lord dealt with it was that He brought it out into the open, and Christ rose up in me and challenged it, OK. Now the anointing is still not restored to what it was, but, I think, it broke that spirit that was killing Christ in this meeting. Is everybody OK? You know what I am talking about. OK, how are you feeling? Are you feeling better?

            I am feeling a little better. I still feel it in the pit of my stomach.

Well, I continue to rebuke it in the pit of your stomach. Fear, I just smite that serpent, and I crush your head, you serpent of fear, you family line curse of fear. I curse you, and I put you under my feat, and I command you to come out of her stomach and to loose her and to let her go. Christ is her savior and her protector and her deliverer and her husband, in the name of Jesus, amen. Anybody else? That first message, was that the message that had the music on it? So we have been through one message, including the mu- --

            Two messages. This is music, and this [CROSSTALK]

So we had a whole message of teaching? OK. Any other questions here, questions, comments? We are on review tonight. Get it while you can. Can you put that on pause just until we see what happens?

            I know I am com- -- repeating myself.

It is OK.

            But all those who have gone before are completely -- there is no consciousness, whatever, Paul, all the others.

No consciousness of the personality, but that part of their person which was Christ is conscious. Every spiritual experience that Christ had in the man, Paul, is preserved alive in the spiritual person of Christ, and, I believe, is manifesting today in the church.

            When you say in the church, are you talking about those who are having Christ formed in them now?

Not everybody, just some people. As Jesus said, if you can receive it, the spirit of Elijah is in John the Baptist.

            So in Hebrews, when it says about a company coming back. I do not know exactly, that they will not -- I forget how it goes, that they will not hinder them in their reward. They will not hinder us.

They cannot be perfected without us. Is that what you mean?

            Something to that --

Yes. What that is speaking about is not the personalities of those people but that spirit that was experiencing Christ because everybody named, they were all prophets and heroes of Christ, so that means all of these people named had experiences in Christ. And the only that cannot be -- they cannot be perfected without us because each one of us represents an experience that Christ must have before He is perfected. It is just like saying, -- in the Hebrew religion, a young boy becomes a man at 13 years old. It is like saying this young boy, at 1 year, cannot reach manhood without the rest of his years. The 1-year-old, the 2-year-old, the 3-year-old, the 4-year-old, the 5-year-old, the 6-year-old cannot become a man without the 7-year-old, the 8-year-old, the 9-year-old, the 10-year-old, the 11-year-old, the 12-year-old and the 13-year-old. That first half, up through 6, 7 or 8 years old cannot become a man without the experiences of the older years. That is what that Scripture means.

The Spirit that was in those heroes cannot go on to perfection until Christ completes His cycle of experience and -- which cycle of experience will result in His ascension to full spiritual manhood. And what is full spiritual manhood? It is an ability, in the spirit, to preserve the l- -- the existence or the life of the souls and bodies of humanity. You see, right now, Christ is in the Earth. He has been in the Earth for 2,000 years. The reason it is taking Him so long to snatch the human race out of Hell and to safety is that Christ must be mature enough to be able to sustain your life after He kills your carnal mind. And an 8-year-old boy cannot sustain your life. You need a fully mature mind of Christ to sustain the existence of your flesh.

If Christ were to kill your carnal mind now, tonight, your body and your life would die because Christ is not yet mature enough to sustain your existence. Therefore, Jesus said, let the wheat and the tare grow together until the hour of harvest, and the harvest is of the full-grown fruit. So when Christ is mature enough in you to preserve your life, then let the tare, which is your carnal mind, be burned. Did I answer your question?

            So then when we are praying for someone, it is not possible to totally cast Satan out because Satan is still keeping that body alive?

Absolutely. Well, you cannot ever cast Satan out; he has to be killed.

            He has to be killed?

Well, he has to -- I am sorry. The carnal mind has to be killed. Satan has to be put down under authority, but we are not going to do that --


-- until Christ is strong enough to keep us alive.

            Right. So there is probably several different time when there is the harvest or the separating the chaff from the wheat, right?

Several different times, you mean -- I do not know what you mean by that.

            When a person comes to that experience where, in their mind, the chaff is being separated from the wheat, there could be several different experiences where they come to --

Oh, many experiences.

            -- that point where, you know, y- -- like that dream I was talking about with the fan and the [?hand?]. You said it was the chaff being separated from the wheat.


            And there could be several different experiences, and then certain things are changed within the -- in the person, and Christ is taking over the person more  and more till, finally --

Yes, it is gradual.

            -- Satan will be put under forever, and the body will be taken over by Christ, right?

Yes, it is a gradual process, amen. That is true. See, we have to -- we really have to train our minds. We have to make a concentrated effort to train our minds to be aware as frequently as we can, hopefully all the time, that spiritual things operate much more slowly than natural things, and it is the tendency of our carnal mind, when we hear a teaching like this, to think it is going to be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. But it is not the twinkling of your eye, brethren; it is the twinkling of God's eye. Our eyes blink every second. These things take time. They are gradual; they are slow; they are little by little.


Exactly, it is not in a moments of man's time. Come out. OK.

            I am to the point where [CROSSTALK]

Do you have the microphone? Yeah.

            I am to the point where I hesitate to answer questions for anyone for fear of misleading them because I feel responsible for anything that I would say to them.

Do not be afraid. You have a lot of seed put in you. You just pray a quick prayer. Jesus, let Your will be done, and do the best you can because you can come up with one big mistake. Mary, the worst that you can imagine can come out of your mouth, and if it is the will of your Lord, He will take one word that you say and quicken it to that person, so do not be afraid. Just step out in faith and believe that God is going to be in what you do and say. Step out in faith. If it turns out that the Lord has to correct you, so you take the correction, but you cannot grow if you do not step out. You have got to step out.

            I feel like there is so many puzzle pieces, and they are, like, floating around in the air, and I have to get them together to make sense of --

Well --

            -- [?some things?].

-- it takes time. You are doing pretty well, considering. How long are you here now? Is it two years? It is just about two years? Less than two years, I think, [UNINTELLIGIBLE], yeah. I think you are doing very well. Can we have someone watching that pause button?

            I am sorry.

Is that on?

            Oh, I guess, it was about the 31st of October. I had a dream, and it was back at my old house, and I was looking out -- I was in the back of the house and looking toward Sunrise Highway. And right on the edge of the highway was these vines with full, ripened grapes, really purples, big, fully ripened, and they were being watered. And Celia was in front of the grapevine. I do not know whether she was help watering it, but she was definitely planting something in front of the grapevine. And I had sa- -- I called to her, and I said, why do we not make the garden on the side of the house, on the -- I guess, it was the northwest side of the house where, at one time my -- you know, remembering back, I guess, it was a thought in my mind that my uncle used to have a compost heap on the side of that house, and he had fish heads and used to grind them all up, and egg shells and everything, and used to have layers, and the smell was horrible, you know. But I know that was good fertilizer, and I said, let us plant the garden right in there, and then I had asked my parents would it be all right, and they seemed to agree with it, and that was the whole dream.

Would what be all right?

            For us to plant the garden there on that side of the house.

On the northwest side of the house?

            Yeah, the northwest side of the house.

But there were grapes there already.

            No, the grapes were on the highway, like, on the edge of the highway. The grapevines were right along the -- running along the highway, and it was the back of the house. It was the old house.


            It was an old house.

Yeah, well, the only thing that comes to me is that it is my understanding of the Scripture that the north typifies the place where Satan is and that the west typifies this visible realm of appearance, whereas the southeast would signify Eden or God's world. The east is where the Father is, and the south is the visible world which is influenced by Christ. So what comes to me is that asking permission to plant the garden in the northwest would be saying, Father, is it time to bring the things of God into the satanic realm? Now what is the satanic realm? The satanic realm is Hell. Is it time to bring the things of God into Hell? And is that not what we are doing right now? This is the hour that the kingdom of God is entering into Hell and will eventually totally swallow it up, so that is a nice dream. Anybody else?

            I was just thinking about the union that we would have with the mind of Christ in us, that the union where -- when male and female become one should be a  hi- -- is -- like, it is supposed to be a higher realm, right?

Speaking spiritually?

            Speaking -- yeah.

I am sorry. Ask your question again, please.

            I am sorry. I -- OK, let me put it -- I just want to say that the union with the -- with our minds and the mind of the Father, when it comes to that point, will it overtake our emotions and our emotion will be in a very high realm that it will be like stay high all the time? I want to ask you some questions that --

Yeah, I --

            -- it is hard to explain this.

I know what you are saying.

            Do you?

Yes. Listen, when our mind joins with the mind of the Father, the mind of the Father is who? What is the name of the mind of the Father?


Christ, OK. So you are saying when our carnal mind joins with Christ --


-- will it bring our emotions up into a high realm?

            Yes, because the emotional part of our mind is, like, locked in there, and there is ups and downs, ups and downs, but to be able to go to that highness and stay there, is that going to be -- I mean, that is the ultimate that we are looking for.

Yes, it is going to -- when our mind joins with Christ, then our mind will be Christ. When our mind is Christ, He will totally rule over our emotions. When our mind is Christ, our mind is male. Our emotions are female. You see, the spiritually mature person is both male and female, OK. The mind is male. The emotions are female, OK, and that mind of Christ will rule in righteousness over His wife because it is the --


-- mind of Christ which is marrying our soul --


-- and our soul is our emotions.

            But our soul, at that time, is -- it is female, but you say it is -- female is Satan. Is that correct?

Satan is in the soul, yes. Satan is in the soul.

            So it is still going to be Satan?

Satan is -- would you put that on pause? Let me think about that for a second. Now Satan is an element in the soul. The soul is made out of clay, and there is present in the soul a moral impurity called Satan, OK. The mind of Christ will be ruling over the clay and the moral impurity in it.

            OK, so the clay and Satan are both female?


            They are two different expressions?

They are two different sides, you might s- -- I do not know if I would say expressions, but two different sides to the soul.

            Two different functions?

I would not say functions.


I would say side. There is c- -- it is clay, OK.

            But my question is Satan will be so crushed that he will not be able to be allowed to have any emotions, is that correct?

He will not be able to have -- well, it is a she. She will not be allowed to have any emotions, hmm.

            I thought I heard --

I think, it is the --

            -- you say last week that Satan will not have any emotions at all --

I do not --

            -- just form --


            -- gi- -- helping to give form.

Yeah, I do not know that Satan has emotions. The emotions are in the clay, OK. The emotions are in the clay, and what is going to be utterly crushed is the moral impurity, the -- that presence which stirs up and seduces to sin. That is what is going to be completely crushed. I do not, believe --


-- the emotions will be completely crushed.

            And that he ne- -- that she never did have emotion.

Not that I know of, no.

            I see. It was the moral -- immor- -- the mor- --

Satan is the moral impurity [CROSSTALK]

            -- impurity inside the emotions.

In -- right, within the emotions [CROSSTALK]

            OK. So then after she is crushed, I have one more question about this.


            With the soul under the submission of the Christ in me, will she also be able to experience high feelings, or is she going to be suppressed? Do you understand what I am saying?


            Will the rational part of Christ be crushing her, that she will not -- I mean, maybe it is a fear of it happening, that she will not ever have -- well, that cannot be true. She is going to be happy; she is going to have joy, right?

Right. Whatever it is going to be, it is going to be better than what we have now.

            Yeah, so she must be going to be in a high position, but she will just be in submission, and she will want to be in submission.

She will be in submission; she will be happy in submission, and, I believe, there will be some measure of emotion, but that emotion will be absent the torment of the emotion that we have in this soul. Our emotion can be devastating.

            And that torment is the moral impurity?

No. Emotion can ruin you. Emotion can lead you to make decisions that will ruin your life. Emotion is not a good thing. It is intimately related to lust, and one of the overriding characteristics of the soul is lust, OK. And that is all going to be under the control of the mind of Christ, and to the best of my knowledge at this time, what we will feel will be peace and contentment, not high and low emotion.

            Yeah, that is what I was wondering.

The highs of the mind, not high and low of the emotions which is unto destruction, but heights in Christ.

            OK. I guess, the word emotional -- because I am thinking, you know, there are emotions that are low, that are negative, and there are emotions that are wonderful, like peace, joy, happiness, that we will have, right?

That is not an emotion. That is out of the Spirit.

            A spiritual --

That is -- that will be a spiritual experience, peace, joy and love.


That will come out of --

            Oh, OK, I thought joy was an emotion.

Well, j- -- no.


There is a joy that is in the Spirit.

            I can receive that.


            It was -- I was flipping out over that. I was like -- you know, because joy, to me, is an up feeling. It is --

Joy is in the spirit.

            -- a wonderful feeling.

The joy of the Lord is in the Spirit, and whatever we are going to have, it will be better than what we have now. Whatever emotion you love, when God gives you the equivalent in the Spirit, it will be far superior to what you have now. Remember, you are [CROSSTALK]

            I believe, we will be level. We -- it will not be ups and downs --

There will not be ups and downs.

            -- because if we experienced that, it would not -- we would not be there.

And you will not be subject to the pain. I mean, we are subject to a lot of pain --


-- because of our emotions. Our emotions make us vulnerable. You know, they are not -- most of the time, they are not a good thing.

            Yeah, I guess, just thinking that -- to be rational all the time is -- would be -- somehow it was registering like that there would just be no feel- -- the feeling that go- -- that has compassion.

You are saying no passion.

            No, not passion --

There will be passion.

            -- but compassion that you have the -- that it is, like, suppressed. It is just logic.


            With ha- -- it is, like, hard. Logic is just --


            It seems, like, hard.


            You know what I mean?

You will have passion.

            And I do not under- -- I am not quite understanding with the words, using the emotional or the rational --


            -- side.

No, this is not true. What you are saying is not true. There will be passion, but it will be passion of the mind, not passion of the soul, passion of the mind, which, if you cannot understand that, just hear this. It will be far superior to the passion of the emotions.

            I believe that.


            I do not understand it --

OK, I do not understand it --

            -- all, but I [CROSSTALK]

-- completely myself.

            -- I hear it, and I --

But I do know this --

            -- [CROSSTALK]

-- that the passion of the emotions, OK, leave you open to pain under certain circumstances, OK. The passions of the mind will be very, very satisfying, with no potential for pain. They will be far superior to whatever we have down in this realm because the very word salvation means total and complete satisfaction in every level of life. Who could possibly ask for more than that? The promise is complete satisfaction, so I would not worry myself with words, you know.

            Well, I know that up here. I just do not understand [CROSSTALK]

Well, I do not understand it either.

            I guess, because it has to come [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah, we have to experience it. I know what -- that all I could say to you about that is that in these experiences that I had, [?the?] experience, full stature, briefly, if you ask me to give you one word to describe how I felt, well, I would say safe. This last incident, I felt safe, tucked behind the Lord. And then, in one incident, I felt joy. It was wonderful.

            [?You felt joy?]?



Oh, I did not want to leave. The one time it was joy when I said I felt the Spirit vibrating through every pore of my body; that was joy. And this last time, I felt very safe.


Yeah, you just -- yeah. It is not a shock to come down.


Are you talking in the mic, please?


OK. Anybody else?

            A Jehovah's Witness came to my house, two of them. One was about a 11-year or 12-year-old boy, and I do not know if it was his father or that it was just an adult with him. And he did all the talking, and as they were talking, I expressed the carnal mind and a few other things, you know.


            And the -- I felt -- I had told him, I said, I know that there are things that the Jehovah's Witnesses find in the Bible, certain truths, but I believe that they are in error. They have error also, and that I was going to a ministry that dealt in the original Hebrew and the original Greek. And I was able to talk quite a long time, and the young boy wanted to give me some literature and so forth, and, finally, he stopped talking about the literature he wanted to give me, and he gave me a small pamphlet that said what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe. I did not read it, but I took it anyway, and there was no rebuttal or anything. They -- both of them just listened to the whole thing.

They listened [?to you?]?

            I did all the talking.

They did not say anything?

            Well, they did not say anything. They just received it, and I told them about Christ, you know, growing within and the carnal mind and the mind of Christ, and they received it. They said, OK, and turned around and walked away.

Did they ask you what religion you were?


They did not ask you?


Huh, that is interesting. God seems to be reaching out to Jehovah's Witnesses this week.

            If they ask you, what do you say?

I will not let anybody corner me. I tell them that I am a follower of Christ, and I am seeking the truth and that I am not any denomination. If they press me, I will tell them I have had a born-again experience, but I am not born-again. I am not. How can I identify with the born-again church? I am not -- you know, I have noth- -- really, have absolutely nothing to do with them at all. Every year that goes by, I am further separated from them. You know, I feel totally separated from them, so I will not let them corner me. I tell them I am a follower of Christ, and I am a seeker of spiritual truth wherever it appears and that I believe that most religions have some kernel of truth, and I am gathering together all of the kernels of truth because I want the whole truth. That is what I tell them, so praise God.

            If a Jehovah's Witness asked you, just came up and said, what is God's name? And they are wanting to know -- I do not -- are they wanting to know if you are going to say Jehovah or Jesus?

Well, I have not had that much experience with them, but they have not really challenged me on that, you know.

            Because God's name is Jehovah, right? Or is it different now [CROSSTALK]

God has many names, you see, and I maintain that the word, name, in the Scripture signifies spirit, and I would never argue with someone who said to me God's name is Jehovah. I would never get into an argument with them that His name is Jesus because --


-- name is nature.

            Yeah, but in the Old Testament, His na- -- He has got all these names, but Jehovah goes before it.




            And so- -- a Jehovah's Witness did ask me what God's name is, and I said Jehovah because I knew what they were thinking on.


            And they just smiled and said, right, and they asked me if I read any literature, and I said I read "The Truth About Hell." Have you been told "The Truth About Hell"? They have got that pamphlet, and they were -- and I was talking with them, and I have studied that before, and I studied their particular pamphlet on that. And, you know, there was just -- I guess, it was points of agreement is all we met on. There was nothing like that [CROSSTALK]

There is a lot of point -- we have

            They said that they would be back to talk to me because it was all met on points of agreement, and I talked to one Jehovah's Witness, like, a couple of years ago when I was working as a nanny, and he came to the door when I was working. And I was talking, and we got into it. I -- is -- if I remember right, we got into a subject about tongues, and he was saying tongues is not for today, and he was saying that the gifts are not t- -- for today, that they passed away when Paul died or something like that. I said, what about what Paul talks about, you know? And I cannot remember -- he had no answer. He was just full of information, but he had no answer for that at all.

Because they are not free thinkers. All they can do is repeat information that is been put into their brain.

            Yeah, so I -- the question that I had about that, he did not have the answer,     and he said he was going to go back and get the answer and come back, you know. Boy, was he fired up for it. He was real fired up, and I was fired up, and we were just going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, you know. And I was talking about things of the Spirit, and I was really challenging him on that. I said, read it, you know, what Paul says about all that, you know. And he was -- you know, he listened, and he said he was going to check it out. He told me he was going to do a whole study on it, you know, but I think that he would  probably do it according to the pamphlet because he said that he would get some information on it, you know.

Yeah. Well, when I went to my daughter's wedding, my daughter's mother-in-law is a Jehovah's Witness, and we got in a discussion on tongues. So I took -- I told her I would look at any information that she gave me, and the information that she sent me was [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- it was -- it did not -- you know, it was not -- well, it was just right out of a carnal -- you know, a carnal reading of the Scripture, so you just cannot get into hassles, you know, with these people. I look for points of agreement, and I do not even look for anything. I just say, Lord, what do You want these -- this person to hear? What do You want them to hear? I could talk to someone for a whole hour and maybe say one or two words that the Lord is going to use to bring spiritual growth. So I do not really look for anything. I just -- well, I look for points of agreement. I look for peaceful conversation.


Yeah, believing that the Lord is guiding. That is what I do. I do not strive over anything. Yes?

            I know you have probably answered this. I am sure you did. You answered this question before because I think I remember somebody [UNINTELLIGIBLE] maybe she asked it, but a long time ago. If you do not mind me asking again, I do not understand what Scripture these people are coming from that know the Bible so well. I -- Baptists know the Bible well, and I just do not understand where they are coming from, that one minister on the radio that seems to think he knows it real well. And then Jehovah's Witnesses, it seems like it is the same spirit, that they say, you know, that, well, the gifts p- -- and tongues passed away, and [?it is, like?], where are you getting this information? Their -- what Scripture are they basing this on? I do not get it, you know. I -- what Scripture? There is no Scripture in the Bible that said they passed away in the early church.

Not that I know of.

            No Scripture at all because, as a matter of fact, it goes on and on about how -- that there is supposed to be an operation, and it gives a lot of information about [?them?it?]. So where are they getting this?

            [INAUDIBLE] I know -- when -- I read it somewhere in Corinthians, but they did not read the whole thing. It says something about that all these gifts will be passing away, that all this will be cease to exist, but they forgot to read the last  part when it says when Jesus comes back, you know, so it does talk about the ceasing

            When we go into perfection [CROSSTALK] that verse.


            I forgot about that verse.

            They f- -- they did not read the whole thing.


I honestly have not studied it. It sounds right, but I have not studied it, but I know --

            [CROSSTALK] talking about [CROSSTALK]

The one Michelle just talked about, and, I believe that they are passing away when Christ comes in our heart. As the imparted anointing starts to emerge in our heart, the gifts pass away. I hardly ever talk in tongues anymore. I haven- -- if you listen to the early messages, we have a prophecy. I have prophesied on almost every message. I hardly ever prophesy the gift of prophecy anymore. Why? Because that which is impart is -- has passed -- not completely passed away but is passing away the gift of prophecy because that which is in full has come. What does that mean? It means that the word that I talk to you when I preach is out of Christ. It is no longer a gift, but it is coming out of the living Christ which is joined with my mind.

Now, remember, we talked about this earlier. The gift of prophecy is the channeling of the Holy Spirit, overshadowing my own mind, bypassing my own mind, OK. The reason I hardly ever do that anymore at all is because there are parts of me whereby Christ is so joined to my soul that He does not have to override my mind. He speaks through my mind. Why? Because my mind has understanding. Let me put it to you another way. The Holy Ghost overrides your mind because your mind is without understanding and would probably hinder what the Holy Ghost was trying to say. But with a mature believer who has had experiences with Christ, the mind and the soul or the mind and the personality are becoming one, so Christ can speak through my experience, and He no longer has to overshadow my will because my experience, which is my personality, which is my soul, is in agreement with the mind of Christ, and it has bee- --

            They became one.

They became one, and as you said earlier, the message and the messenger becomes one, and by my own observation, the only time I prophesy [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- the only time I have prophesied over the last even two years is when the Lord has something that He wants to say that my understanding cannot comprehend, so He overrides my understanding, but He has given me a lot of wisdom and a lot of understanding in Christ, so most of what He wants to say to you, He speaks through my personality. But on the -- in the event that He wants to tell you or me something that I have not experienced, I will revert back to the gift of prophecy. Do you understand what I said?

            Or sometimes [CROSSTALK]


            Could it be that sometimes --

Is that on?

            Yeah, it is on.


            That sometimes you know that it is Christ speaking through you. Say you were ministering to another vessel, and you know that Christ was speaking to you, and it was Christ, or -- well, if you had the understanding, then you know that Christ -- it is Christ, and --

I know when the wisdom of God --

            -- you are giving --

-- is flowing through me.

            Right. And say that I am speaking -- say Christ was speaking through me and I am speaking to a younger person in the Lord and ministering to them, and I know that it is Christ, but they do not know that it is Christ. They do not recognize it when they hear it. I could be prophesying just when I am just talking like this, and I tell them something, and it is definitely a word from Christ. Sometimes could it be that the Lord will say that, say -- well, that the Lord tells you to say that just for their sake, not --

To say what?

            To say, well, the Lord says --

Oh, OK.

            -- and then continue for their sake, not just because it was the Holy Ghost prophesying, you know, thus saith the Lord or the Lord says, but they just --  you just do it for their sake because they cannot recognize, and they will say,  oh, th- -- in their mind, they will go, oh, it is -- this is the Lord, because they   cannot recognize it sometimes. You think He will do it for their sake?

In my opinion, I do not think so.


OK, that is my opinion.

            How come? OK.

And the reason I have this opinion is that the Lord intends for us to grow up, so He prophesies, and the di- -- there is a difference between the gift of prophe- -- what we call prophecy is not prophecy; it is the gift of prophecy. The true prophecy is when the Lord speaks through you in normal conversation, and the other person is required to discern the Lord, to discern the Lord's body, OK. And if the disciple does not discern the Lord's body and they go out and they do not take this counsel, when things get messed up and they go before the Lord and say, how come You did not help me? How come You did not answer me? How come You did not counsel me? How come I got messed up? The Lord will then say to them, but I did.


And they would say, when, Lord, did we not visit You in the jail? And when did we not feed the starving? And when did we not have compassion on the sick? And the Lord will say, well, I spoke to you out of My servants mouth, and because your heart was hard and your ears were plugged up, you did not hear. Now, repent, and I will give you the ability to discern the Lord's body.

            I see.

That is how it works.

            So it is through the -- because then it has to be experiential.


            OK. So then when do you know that you are to prophesy by the gift of  prophecy? What is it needful for that it is still sometimes flowing through? What is that for?

That is when your personality does not possess the wisdom of the message. See, when God has a message to give to someone, if you have enough experience in Christ, He will speak it through your personality. If you have not experienced that, He will override your personality, and the overriding of your personality is the gift of prophecy. The speaking through your personality is the true prophecy.

            OK. So when ministering individually and, you know, you come, and the Lord directs you to a person, and you say, yea, saith the Lord, the purpose is because you do not know in particular. It just comes out of your mouth because the Holy Ghost is surpassing you.

Is p- -- surpassing your personality, yes.


Because it is a message that is beyond your maturity in Christ to bring forth. In other words, let me give you another example. If you see somebody that is in sin and you know that it is in s- -- that -- their sin. You know that it is Christ; you know that it is righteousness in your heart and that you are not judging them before the time. And you are mature enough to approach them and say, now, sister, you know, I just have to tell you. I have to point this out to you, that what you are doing is wrong, OK, because your person has recognized this. Your person has mercy and compassion and is going to them in the right spirit, OK. But if you cannot recognize that sin, if you cannot point it out in mercy or in righteousness, the Holy Spirit will override your personality and say what He has to say to that person. Thus saith the Lord, I have seen your sins. I have seen you in the night season; I have seen you in the darkness, and I say unto you, repent, or I shall bring judgment upon you, saith the Lord. Because your personality did not recognize the sin, or your person --


The righteousness in your personality was not mature enough to rise up and rebuke them in righteousness. God is not going to have you rebuke them in a wrong spirit so that judgment falls upon you.

            I guess, I have this question with it, that, for example, you had told me several times that God is going to totally deliver me, OK. But the night that you came back and prophesied individually over people by the Spirit, something was different about it. The way you did it, by coming over and saying, the Lord says, I thought it was for the other person for this reason, because I know this is how it helped me and it helped other people, that it seemed like that -- and you could have been saying it from Christ and that it was hard for me to believe. And so I thought it was for the person because it is so hard to get it through my head that it is going to happen that you came and said, thus saith the Lord. And   there was the Spirit of the Lord with it. The Spirit came in, and it touched me deep when you did it.


            So that is why my question came up like that.


            Do you understand --


            -- what I am saying now?

That --

            Because [?to?] sit here and tell you, you are going to be fully delivered, you understand? And then to come in the Spirit and sa- -- and point at you and say your heart's desire and do the -- do something by the Spirit like that just pierced me through, I guess.

Well, that came forth in power. That was more than the gift of prophecy.

            OK, then, I guess, I do not understand -- the gift of prophecy, then, always does not mean that the person is going to say thus saith the Lord or not.

The gift of prophecy is always thus saith the Lord, but that was t he gift of prophecy coupled with a word of wisdom. It was power. It came down with power to perform the word. Prophecy --

            Was it Christ, or was it the word of wisdom is another gift?

I do not know.


I do not know.

            You are just saying it was with power and with wisdom.

It was with power, yeah, and prophecy is not necessarily with power, you know.

            I see.

OK. Prophecy is creative. Prophecy, if it is of the Lord, it is God saying this is what I am going to do, and then eventually it has to come to pass, OK. But this came with the impartation of power that came right down on you. All prophecy does not do that.


You see.

            Yeah, there is only a few times I have experienced it.


            I experienced it there, and I experienced one other time to that degree, [?yeah?].

Yeah. And the reason it came out thus saith the Lord [AUDIO CUTS OUT]

On the occasions that I have said to you God is going to fully deliver you, it is been more or less in a conversation. It has come up as a natural expression of Christ in me in response to a conversation that we are having. OK, that night, when I prophesied over everybody with power, it was not a natural result of a convers- -- it went beyond the circumstances of our relationship at that moment.


It was a sovereign move of God that did not come naturally out of my soul,  if you can understand it. If you can receive it, receive it, OK. Anybody else?


Pardon me?


Yeah. That kind of prophecy was a sovereign move of the Lord that, if you do not have an understanding that it was a so- -- that it was God just doing what His will wanted Him to do. It came out of nowhere. It did not fit in. It did not fit in with the conversation. It did not fit in with the message. Where did it come from? It just came out of left field. Why? Because God wanted to do it, and for that reason, it came out with --


-- in a proph- -- in a -- it sounded like a gift.


It sounded like a gift, yeah. I will have to see if God gives me a name for it. I know it is more than when you are sitting in a service and, all of a sudden, someone goes ra-ta-ta-ta-ta, thus saith the Lord, you know.


That this was different, and if He gives me a -- I know in my heart, you know.

            A word of wisdom.

Yeah, it may -- that may not even be correct, you know, but I know in my heart that it was different. I just do not have any more understanding right now. If He gives it to me, I will be glad to share it with you, OK.

            But, I guess, I am thinking it was lack on my part to not recognize when, during a conversation, naturally, Christ came up in you and said that.

Christ has come up --

            But --

-- in me and said a lot of things to you that you do not recognize as Him. You think it is me.

            Yeah. So that -- it is the same word. It is like, if Christ says it, Christ says it, but I would like to get to that place where I can discern when Christ is saying that --

Well, I believe, that he answered your prayer.

            -- in the person, in a na- -- amen, in a natural conversation because --


            -- then I can receive the truth, you know.

Amen. I pray that He opens your ears and that He opens the eyes of your understanding, that you should hear His voice wherever He speaks, even in a donkey. That is a wonderful --

            That would be easy.

That would be easy. Well, some of us human donkeys -- some of us are human donkeys, yeah. I just pray that for all of you, that you should be able to recognize the voice of the Lord wherever He is speaking from, and you know He can speak through a healing. He can speak through a man that does not know God. The Lord has done that to me.


Yeah, the Lord has done that to me. Usually --        

            [CROSSTALK] make it a little easier, like, you know, when the carnal mind -- you could make it a little easier. When the carnal mind is talking, you could see a red light.


            When Christ is talking, you could see a green light.

No way.


            [?I wish?] it was a little easier.

Yeah, no way, brethren. We have to become --

            We have got to discern. It is so hard. It kills us.

-- spiritual. We have to change. No matter how hard it is, we must travel from being carnal to being spiritual. We must change. He is not changing for us. We are the ones that have to go up. He is only -- He is not coming down. We have to go up. We have to learn to discern His voice wherever He speaks; your life may depend on it. And the hardest thing for people is to hear the voice of the Lord in another man. There are a lot of people that hear the voice of the Lord in a dream. They hear the voice of the Lord when He speaks, when He puts His thoughts in their mind. They know when God talks to them personally, but they stumble at the flesh; they stumble when God speaks to them through another man. But my Bible says that he who confesseth not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an anti-Christ, and there is a big deception in the church today amongst many believers, thinking that the only time they are going to hear from God is when He speaks to them directly. And they do not acknowledge authority in the church. It is a lack of understanding. It is a lie. I am telling you, it is a lie.

There are certain areas in which God will speak to you directly about your home life, about your family, about your personal relationships. He will speak to you directly, but there are certain areas that He will speak to you through your husband. There are certain areas that He will speak to you through your employer. There are certain areas that He will speak to you through your mother. There are certain areas that He will speak to you through the fivefold ministry, specifically with regard to ministry, OK. I have -- there are some people where a minister will go up to them and say, I am going to be out of town. I would appreciate it if you would take the meeting. And they say, well, I have to hear from God. No, in a ministry situation like that, God will speak to you through the minister. For all ministry work, God does not speak to you directly; He speaks to you through the authority in the ministry. For certain situations in your home, He will speak to you -- if you are a woman, He will speak to you through your husband. God moves through authority. If you are a young woman at home, He may speak to you through your father. He can bring correction through your employer. He can speak to you through your employer about things that you are doing wrong. If you have a bad attitude, He may correct you through your employer. God does not just speak to you directly; it is a lie; it is an absolute lie.

That is how I almost got evicted from this apartment because I -- God had given me -- my secular job was working for my pastor, and he told me the job was over; go get another job. And I was very arrogant in those days, and I said, I am not giving up this job; God did not tell me I am fired, not fired but laid off. God did not tell me the job ended. I said, who is -- God put me in this job. Well, I was under that pastor, and he told me the job was over, and the next ti- -- thing I knew, I blinked, and I did not have the money to pay my rent here because I was waiting for God to talk to me. He spoke to me through my boss. Do not be deceived. God will speak to you directly, but He will also speak to you through other people. Do not be deceived. He speak to me through other people.

            Are you always conscious when you are speaking to another person, that it is the Lord speaking through you?

Am I conscious when it happens? I usually know it. I know when it is the Lord. I know when it is me, Sheila, the person, and I know when I am manifesting. I have been manifesting a lot lately, and I have -- when I have a particular manifestation to rebuke me, and I had that manifestation right after that, so she says, I rebuke you, so I started to laugh because I should not have been saying that. He was to- -- I was totally yielded to that manifestation, but, no, I can tell the three levels. I know when it is --



            [INAUDIBLE] I rebuke you, and she said -- she goes, thank you, Rita. That was good. I mean, at least she did not rise up and say, well, who are you?

No. I know when it is Christ. I know when it is me, and I know when it is an ungodly manifestation. There is a young lady I minister to. I have been ministering to her for years. She does not come to the meetings, and every time I rebuke her, she says that to me, thank you, Sheila. I know she was having trouble with her husband a couple of years ago, and she called up, and she is telling me this whole story. And I did not like what she was saying at all, you know, but I really just felt I did not want to say anything, so I was just silent. And she is talking, and she is talking, and she is talking. She is saying, what do you think, Sheila? And I am saying, well, you know. And, finally, she says, Sheila, what do you think? And I said, you really want to know? She says, yeah. I said, you are a lily-livered coward; that is what you are. And she says, thank you, Sheila.


            That is good [INAUDIBLE] mean it?

Oh, yeah, she means it. She -- I love her. She means it, yeah. She really means it. She really meant it, and she needed to hear it, and that was just the beginning.


Then I got mad. I said, what are you doing that for? [UNINTELLIGIBLE] she says, thank you, Sheila. She [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

            [INAUDIBLE] I think I would like to meet this person [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah, she is good people.


She is good people. I love her.

            Most people rise up and have some kind of comeback, but it is not too receptive.

That was really funny. I think I was in the hospital. I did more ministering from my hospital bed. I think I was in the hospital at the time, yeah. You lily-livered coward, why do you not stand up and fight? Oh, God.

This turned out pretty good. We really were losing the Spirit for a while there. We really were losing the Spirit. Did anyone recognize it? There was a grief in the Spirit, and we were really losing it for a while. And I want you to know that what I did was that I prayed. Well, first of all, I rebuked it. I rebuked the carnal mind that was killing Christ, and we were still losing the Spirit. And I just asked the Lord what He wanted me to do, and just at that question alone, everything just cleared up.

            What question?

What do You want me to do? We were losing the Spirit, and the only thing I knew to do was rebuke the carnal mind. I did that, and Christ was still draining, so I did not know what to do, and --

            How did it happen?

All I asked the Lord was what He wanted me to do.

            I mean, how did it happen [INAUDIBLE]

What happens is that somebody manifests. That is what happened.

            Was it a certain question or just [CROSSTALK]

I do not know really -- somebody manifests. Somebody gets upset, and that spirit starts killing Christ, and it has just been my experience that the Lord will let the bones of Christ be broken unless -- I do not really know what would happen if I did not discern it and someone in the congregation did discern it and prayed. I do not know whether God would hinder it or whether He would use that prayer to speak to me. I do not know whether I have to be the one to come against it, whether the one that is running the meeting has to be the one to come against it. Do you understand what I am saying?


OK, or whether it could be coming [UNINTELLIGIBLE] from someone in the congregation or -- but, definitely, if you perceive it, pray. Either He will wage the warfare right from your mind, or He will take your prayer to speak to me, but He will definitely act on it. So since you are the only that is recognizing it, did you pray when you recognized it?

            No [CROSSTALK]

Will you try to do that in the future? This is important because there is body ministry here. This is important, OK. If you discern it, it is for a reason. You should pray. If you discern it, you should pray because I need help up here, but you have to help in the way that is prescribed by the Lord. And the way that you help is that you sit in your seat and you pray, and if you sit in your sit and you pray and it does not get any better, you know, you speak out and say, Sheila, you know, are you aware we are losing the anointing here? You can talk to me, OK, a call to body ministry.

            So I am thinking, if it is the particular subject that we are talking about that is not on the Spirit, you will -- you have done this before. You would rise up and say, I believe that this particular subject is not of the Spirit.



Sometimes -- well, it happened earlier, when we first started this meeting and we were talking about all this death. I let it run for a while, but it really -- God was not in it, so I just --


-- moved on.

            I was praying now. [CROSSTALK]

Yeah. Oh, you are praying? Yeah, I just moved on. If I -- sometimes, on occasion, I have tried to get us into a spiritual subject, and the other people who were not aware of what was happening, if they were sticking with that carnality, then I have to bring it out into the open and say we really have to go on because it is not the Spirit. I try to be as subtle as possible, but when necessary, you do whatever you have to do to stay in the Spirit. OK, so we have to wage a warfare to keep Christ manifested over our meeting, [?and He is?] --

            I know when I manifested before, when I manifested the fear, you came against the manifestation, but you did not come against the subject. The subject was all right in itself. It was still in the Spirit, and the other subjects of -- when we went back and forth about prophecy and all that, that was -- that was not off the subjects of what [?I am saying?].

Nope, any subject is --

            Because you --

-- open. Well, I should not say any subject. That death, I could not -- it is OK --


-- to say one or two things, but then you had to drop it.


Most subjects are OK.

            The subjects that I was -- all the questions that I was saying, that they were not  out of order?

No, I would have told you if they were.


No. A cauldron of fire, how wonderful. [?It is?] all going down into the fire, tremendous, hot, burning fire. [INAUDIBLE] maturity coming for you, June, and maturity in your soul because the ministry that -- you have ministry in you, but it is not -- it does not -- most of the time, it does not work together with your soul. Your personality is going that way, and the anointing is going that way. And if you remember the teaching tonight, what God wants to do is He wants to take the spiritual ministry that is in us and express it through our personality. He does not want to channel. You see, you -- He channels you. He overrides your mind, and He just does whatever He is going to do, but He wants to link up with your personality so that He can express Himself through your understanding of what He is doing. You understand what I am saying?


OK. I guess, I am going to be laying hands on -- OK. That is what He wants to do for you. He wants to put the two together. I just break down that wall that separates soul from the Spirit of God, in the name of Jesus. Do not ask me why I am doing this. I really do not know. Praise God. OK. Jesus. Oh, [?the senses?], well, whatever.


Yeah, [?senses?]. Your carnal instincts have to get out of it, OK.


Yeah. Thank you, Jesus. [SPEAKING IN TONGUES] The Lord wants to do something similar for you, Mary. He wants to -- He wants -- you know, you have a heavy -- there is ministry in you. You know that. He has heavy ministry in you. He wants it to be expressed more through your understanding, OK. Now, remember, channeling is an immature manifestation of the expression of the Spirit of God. He wants to bring you up higher. He wants to bring you up into that maturity where you understand what He is doing, so it is a joining of His Spirit in you to your soul, and there is going to be fiery trials involved because whenever the Spirit of God touches you, it burns. Everything that is hindering this union is going to burn. Heavy trials coming, but you have everything you need to come through, strong warrior. You will be fine. Jesus.

Michelle, the Lord is going to start to work on your fears and your immaturity. He has work for you to do, honey, OK. There is strong ministry in you, but it is being very hindered because of your personality, which is fearful and immature, OK. So there is going to be a joining there, OK. That means trials and tribulations, but you are going to make it because He is not giving you trials and tribulations to destroy you; He is giving you trials and tribulations to increase in you, and you are going to be just fine, OK. So do not be surprised when the fiery trial comes upon you. Remember that God sent it, and that He is going to burn off your bands and that He wants to bring you into ministry, to a greater degree. I know you are doing little things here and there, but it is time for you to come in. He is -- there is a lot of work. He has a lot of work for you to do, OK.

Celia, you can say yea or nay. This thought never occurred to me before now, so you say yea or nay whether or not it is God, OK.


[UNINTELLIGIBLE] I notice you have been falling asleep at the meetings, OK, but I really did not think about it too much, and what He just said to me is that you have really taken -- at your age, you have taken on a very big chore with your grandchildren, and it is really draining your strength, and that you should consider asking Johnny if he would get someone just for one or two days a week because there is really no room for you to go -- to move into anything else in Christ. You just have no energy left, and you are falling asleep in the meetings, and you are not alert. And there is no space for you to go forward at all with this kind of a strain on you, and it is really even too much for you now, OK. So you just pray about that. Come here, let me lay hands on you, OK. I just bless you, and [UNINTELLIGIBLE] He has something for you.

            Praise God.

But, you know, we are restricted to our physical -- you know, you are not 21 years old anymore. I thought you were 21, but I found out you are 25, you know. You can only do so much, right?

            I think what He is -- what I am really going through is that I really feel I am not going to be one of them, and I c- -- it is hard. I know I have to rebuke it. I do not think I am going to be one that is going to go through.

Oh, I rebuke you.

            I have been fighting this, and I have been fighting this.

I rebuke you. Sit down in your seat.


Sit down in your seat.

            -- and it has to be more than that.

Well, you have to resist, honey. You have to resist because what -- if I hear you right, what you are saying to me is you are so sure that you are not going on in Christ that you are going out there finding some carnal activity to comfort yourself. And what you are doing is locking out anything that God wants to do, so you have got to give up this control.

            [CROSSTALK] and it is like it is for everyone else [CROSSTALK]

Well, I -- you have got to re- -- I rebuke that. You have got to resist. That is a lie.


Yeah, because I tell you all the time you are moving in. You are starting to have spiritual experiences, you know.


Yeah. This is a lie in your mind, but you are -- Celia, this is too much for you. How many days a week do you take care of those children?

            I have to be honest. It is not hard like it was prior.

Answer my question. Do not give me stories. How many days a week do you take care of these children?

            [?The other?] Saturday and then Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, and Friday [CROSSTALK]

Yeah, it is too much for you, honey. It is too much for you, absolutely too much for you, so, you know, maybe one or two days a week, you know, three tops. I feel in my heart two days would be plenty, OK. Jesus.

            I just do not feel spiritual.

Well, you do not have to feel spiritual. You do not have to feel it.


Yeah, you have to -- you know, I have been hearing this from you as long as I know you. You have got to resist, so what you are doing is that you are running away. You feel so rejected. You feel that God is not calling you --


-- so you are taking matters into your own hands, and that is sin. That is the sin of pride, to take matters into your own hands.


You know, I know someone else who did that. You know, they were hurt; they were wounded in the church, and they went out to meet -- have their needs met with some secular activity, and this happened a couple of year ago. They are still engaged in that secular activity, as far as I know. Their spiritual life is barely flickering.


The word of the Lord -- I do not want to get into any long discussion. The word of the Lord to you is you are exhausted. You are too tired, and the Lord wants to take you further. There is no way He can take you further because you are doing too much for [?Neil?]. You come in here exhausted.



            [INAUDIBLE] difference [CROSSTALK]

Yeah. You come in here exhausted, and if you want to go on, there is no way you can go on like this, OK. Rosie Posie --


-- Jesus loves you.


OK, shh. Jesus loves you, honey. I just pray for a special miracle for you, special. Because you have faith, [?and you?] obeyed Him because it was very hard for you to restrain from ministering this message, and you have done it. You know, you kept quiet. It was very hard for you to do, and He says it is time for you to start ministering this message. He has work for you.


For Rita, resurrection, power, you will be raising the dead.

            Praise God, wow.

Now, remember --

            Thank you, Jesus.

Now it might mean that she is going to be raising a dead physical body, OK, but more likely than that, the new order resurrection of the dead, w- -- in view of that revelation, what that means to me is that Christ is going to start coming forth from her with enough power to raise the dead human spirits of the men that she ministers to.







            -- extensive detail resurrection of the dead.

Yes, amen.

            And [INAUDIBLE] when I was praying for you. I was telling [INAUDIBLE] remember that?


            Just it is -- He really confirmed [?it?] [INAUDIBLE] I thank the Lord for that.

I just want to encourage everybody here. Rita has been laboring in this spiritual ministry for four years now. None of you have been here for four years. Do not let -- I do not want anyone to be discouraged. You just have to put in the time, four or maybe longer years. Four or five years she has been in this spiritual ministry. It does not happen overnight. It takes times. This conversion of the heart, it just takes time.

06/05/15 Transcribed by VerbalFusion

06/10/15 1st Edit CAS/BP

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Pastor Vitale's Bio

Sheila R. Vitale is the founding teacher and pastor of Living Epistles Ministries and Christ-Centered Kabbalah. In that capacity, she expounds upon the Torah (Scripture) and teaches Scripture through a unique Judeo-Christian lens.

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