248 - 1 Part

The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
 The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.


-- [INAUDIBLE] because that is the best way to go. So long as Christ is leading your nose, you will end up in the right place. OK.

I had a very interesting day today -- a very, very stressful day. And Rita came into the office to pray for me just not too long ago, and I had a visitation from the Lord. I saw a vision of two Hebrew letters. They were the first two letters of a three-letter Hebrew word, and at first I recognize them as Hebrew letters, but I was not really sure what the Lord was saying, and then He spoke the word to me pronouncing the third letter that for whatever reason did not appear, and the word was [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. I said to Rita, I think that is the Hebrew word that means captain of the host, and I said, wow, what does that mean?

And, as I tell you all the time, we have to be very careful when we interpret symbols. It is very easy to get a vision from the Lord. Just about everybody or almost everybody who has any spiritual contact with the Lord can get a vision, but understanding that vision is very hard, and you are better off having no understanding at all than having a wrong understanding because I have seen lives wrecked over misinterpretation of symbols, and I have seen people sell their homes, give up businesses. Some people I have seen leave their husbands or wives because they misunderstood a spiritual communication, and it is very dangerous to interpret a spiritual communication if you are not qualified to do so because destruction follows.

And, as I have been teaching here for years, these are two completely different gifts. Receiving the vision, seeing it with your eyes, and relating it to other people -- that is one gift, or a manifestation of the Spirit, and interpreting that symbol is a whole other ball of wax. And we have a lot of people in the church world today that draw the conclusion because they have the first gift that they also have the second gift, and that is a wrong, false conclusion because it is a rare person that has both, and the ability to interpret symbols is in Christ.

Now, I am not talking about the interpretation of tongues. The interpretation of tongues is a gift that comes with the anointing that we know as the Holy Ghost. It is a -- it is a beginning anointing that helps people to begin to have a relationship with the Lord and to be spiritual, but the in- -- the interpretation of symbols and spiritual visions and dreams is in Christ, and Christ is in mature believers.

Mature -- and what makes you a mature believer? Is it how many years you have been in the church? Is it how many years you have been reading the Bible? Does anybody know what makes you a mature believer? Anybody? What makes you mature in Christ?



Christ in [CROSSTALK]

The maturity of Christ in you determines how mature you are as a believer because He is growing up from seed. He is starting as a mustard seed, and as He grows in you, you mature in Christ. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with your chronological age, with how long you have been in the church, with your physical sex, with your education, with your financial condition. It has nothing whatsoever to do with any of these things. It has to do with, number one, whether or not Christ is in you, and, number two, if He is in you, how mature He is in you. And for Christ to be mature in you, He has had to fight a war to be mature in you because Christ cannot be mature in you unless He is in the process of killing your what?

Carnal mind.

Your carnal mind. Why is that? Because your carnal mind has no intention of letting Him mature in you. In fact, your carnal mind is trying to kill that seed from the second it is conceived, and we see this principle in the book of Revelation 12. “And the dragon stood by the man-child seeking to devour Him.” Was it before He was born, or as soon as He was born? As soon as He was born.

So there is a dragon in your head, and there is a man-child in your head, and they are at war with one another, and there is no way, brethren, that you will have a Christ in you mature enough to interpret symbols if you have not been waging this warfare. So do not be deceived and do not deceive yourself because it is only to your own destruction. Know who you are. Ask the Lord how old you are. Ask Him who you are. Ask Him where you are because deception can only hurt you, and the truth is going to set you free and put you in a state of mind whereby you are eligible to mature, and it is God’s intention for every believer to mature unto the ultimate, which is -- what is the ultimate?


Full st- -- well, full stature, Christ in you, the hope of glory. Of course, that is the answer that I wanted, but we know there is a step beyond full stature. Anybody know what it is called?


Glorification, but right now we are dealing with full stature. Let us get number one first. OK. The -- our ultimate goal at this stage of dev- -- of the development of the human race is full stature. Glorification is way down the road. I do not know about you, but I will take full stature. I will take healing from every disease, and life -- unending life with peace and contentment, not with torment, I will take it for the time being.

OK, so I saw this vision of t- -- of a Hebrew word, and I heard the word in my head, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], and I sat there for a few minutes, and I said, I really think it means captain of the host. Nothing else came, so I jumped up and I went to my concordance and I found it, and there was. It can be translated captain of the host, the head, leader. It means Christ. It means Christ.

So -- now, the big question is why was the Lord saying that to me, and what did He mean by it? And the answer is I do not know. Now, if you think that you are an interpreter of symbols and you cannot say you do not know, you are not an interpreter of symbols, OK. You better know who you are, OK. If you -- if the Lord is talking to you, fine; if He is not talking to you, you better shut your mouth because if you open your mouth and it is not the Lord, it is who?

[?Your carnal mind.?]

It is your carnal mind talking. It is your carnal mind talking.

All that I know is it has to mean something good. If -- I know if the Lord exalts Himself to me, if He declares Hims- -- that is what He did. He declared Himself to me, so I know it has got to be good. Everything is OK. The victory is in the bag. At the very least that is what it means. I would like to hope it means more than that.

And there is nothing wrong with a controlled speculation. There is nothing wrong with saying, well, it could mean this -- now, not based on your emotions, but based on some knowledge of the Scripture, it is OK to say it could mean the Lord is announcing full stature -- well, it could, right? It could mean the Lord is announcing a manifestation of His presence in this meeting tonight that is going to be glorious. It could mean that, OK. There is nothing wrong with speculating -- let us call them educated guesses -- as long as you know that that is what you have got, a series of educated guesses.

And sometimes God will honor that, and He will work in it, and He will talk to you, and He will show you other things, and you will say, well, scratch that one. Well, scratch that one, you know. Scra- -- that is I as long as you are open and you are honest and you really want to know what God is saying to you. OK?

So I just know it has got to be good because today was absolutely terrible. It was --


-- absolutely terrible. You too? Absolutely terrible. Rita and I were sitting in the office manifesting silently, and Rita knocked on the door. She came in, and I said, I am fully manifesting, Rita. So -- it is amazing. Sometimes -- you know, you sometimes -- you need prayer, OK. She said to me, “What should I pray for?” I said, I do not know. Make this thing go away, you know? I do not know. I was ready to kill somebody. I was -- there was rage flowing through me. Absolute rage flowing -- I was afraid to walk out here, to tell you the truth -- absolute rage flowing through me.

So we talked about it, you know, and I said, well, you know, I had been getting these words all day. I g- -- all -- during the middle of the day, the Lord was speaking to me, and He was saying this is the turning point, and -- this weekend is a turning point, OK, and how do you take that? You could take it on an individual -- believe it. What have you got to lose? Believe it. Everybody here, believe it. Possess it; it is yours, that there is a turning point in your life over this weekend, OK, and there is a turning point for the whole ministry, OK. There is a turning point for the church. Believe for everybody. Why not?


Oh, yeah?


I rebuke fear. OK.


I rebuke fear. So that was the word that was coming down today -- this is the turning point. [UNINTELLIGIBLE] Then Christ exalts Himself to me with a double witness -- visual and audio. Something wonderful is happening.

So I had a thought in my mind, and -- well, we all know that Christ has to appear in somebody sooner or later. Now, there is such a thing as reverse pride, and reverse -- it is the flipside of pride, but it is still pride. It says, well, it cannot possibly happen in my lifetime. It cannot possibly happen in my ministry. I cannot possibly happen to me. I am not worthy.

Well, no one is worthy, brethren. Nobody is worthy -- nobody. There is only one who is worthy. His name is?


J- -- [AUDIO CUTS OUT] -- the whole catch, and whoever thinks he is worthy, the Scripture says to him destruction is waiting for you. If you think you are standing, watch out because you are about to?


Fall. There is nothing that you could do to qualify you for the gift of God or for anything that grows out of the gift. And what is the gift of God? What? Eternal life, in the form of who?


Christ -- in the form of Christ Jesus in you, the hope of glory. There is nothing that you could do to deserve Him. There is nothing that you can do to qualify yourself to receive Him, and there is nothing that you could do of yourself to have Him grow unto the fullness of God in you. Of course, there are things you could do once you get Him. Anybody, what do you do? You study to?


Show yourself approved. You work out your salvation with?

Fear and trembling.

Fear and trembling. You judge yourself so that?


You will not be judged. There are things to do, but they are things that you could not do of yourself. You cannot do it until you get the gift of God, which is Christ. So there is a labor in Christ, not -- it is not of works. Your salvation is not of works. There is a labor in Christ.

So the thought that occurred to me when I saw this vision and I heard this word was that I am moving up. I expect to go into full stature. You know, I have said that to people, and that gotten very upset with me, and they have accused me of pride. Brethren, truth cannot be pride. You see, pride is a spirit. Pride is a spirit. If it is God putting this thought in your mind, it cannot be pride. Somebody has got to go into full stature sometime. Well, why not me? I have a right to hope.

And why do I have a right to hope? Because I know Christ is in me and because I have been doing all these things that we just named and because the signs are upon me. The signs are upon me. I have experienced His sufferings. I have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake. I have been apprehended by the Lord. I do not make any of my own decisions anymore. I have a right to hope, so I am hoping that it is going to be soon for me.

I do not have to worry about cutting anybody else out. This gift is for everybody. There is enough for everybody. All you have to do is ask. He that desires wisdom from the Lord, let him ask. And wisdom is? Wisdom is Christ. You have to get Christ. Ask. The Lord will give Him to you liberally. It is for everybody. There is more than enough. I do not have to cut anybody else. Just run your own race, take care of yourself, deal with your own sin, and you will get there. There is room for everybody. I do not have to cut anybody else out.

So I have a hope -- I have this hope of this high calling in Christ Jesus that it is going to happen to me, and I hope it is going to happen real soon because I am very tired. I have this hope, OK.

So I would like to just take a minute to go over with you what the tribulation is. We have heard all kinds of stories about what the tribulation is, and Jesus said there has never been anything like this before, nor never will there be anything like it in the future, and our carnal minds, including mine -- I am never offending anybody. Everybody is the same when they are carnal, and eventually you become spiritual. Everybody’s carnal mind says, well, there never was a war this terrible before, but, brethren, I cannot imagine a war more terrible than the wars we have seen on this planet over the centuries. There have been some really terrible things that have happened. Not only wars; terrible things have happened to people on this planet in the history of ma- -- of mankind.

So I want to suggest to you that what Jesus was speaking about was not a tribulation or a war that is so terrible that it is going to surpass all of the evil of the Spanish Inquisition, of World War II, of the horrors of Vietnam. I do not think that is what He was talking about because that is hard to imagine something worse than that. I think He was talking about the kind of tribulation -- we have never seen it before -- the tribulation that is going to destroy Satan. We have never seen him destroyed before, and we will never see it again because once he -- once he has -- goes down under -- that is what tribulation means, to go down under -- he is never going to get out again, so we will never see this happen again. That is what I believe Jesus meant. The tribulation is unto Satan. Satan is the Prince of the Power of the Air of this world system. He is ruling and he is reigning, and he is going to have his powers stripped from him.

And all the Pharisees are screaming, it already happened on Calvary. And so I hear them in the spirit screaming, you are a false prophet; it already happened on Calvary. Brethren, the provision -- the provision for Satan’s utter destruction happened on Calvary. It happened in the man Jesus of Nazareth. Satan was stripped of all of his power in the man Jesus of Nazareth who was the Christ. And he was forced down -- who? Satan was forced down out of his exalted position as Prince of the Power of the Air. In the mind of the man Jesus, he was forced down under the authority of the Christ -- in the man Jesus, who was Christ -- and now it has got to happen to all of us. It happened in the man Jesus. As far as the Father is concerned, it is just a matter of time.

Our natural example -- let us use natural examples. A woman is giving birth to a baby; the head is born. Nobody ever questions that the arms and the torso and the legs are going to come out of that woman’s body. Well, the head was born, brethren. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], the head was born, and it is just a matter of time. The rest of the body has to come forth in the same exalted form as the Lord Jesus Christ. It must happen. As night follows the day, it has to happen.

But all rule and power and principality has not been put down in your life. How do I know that? Because you still get sick, and you are still aging, and you still have all the problems of fallen humanity. And if all rule and power and principality in the form of Satan were truly put down under the Christ in you, you would be in a position where you could live forever. You would have no pain in your body. Your body would not age. Your mind would be in perfection. You would be incapable of sin. Nobody has attained to this except Jesus of Nazareth, who was the Christ, so it has to happen to the rest of the body.

Jesus of Nazareth has been glorified. He is now a glorified spirit who is pouring out of heaven upon all flesh. He is raining on mankind, and a drop of Him is getting inside individuals and is starting to reproduce itself, and when Christ begins to be reproduced in you, He will begin to wage war against your carnal mind, and the carnal mind is an expression of Satan in you. Christ in you, the hope of glory; the carnal mind in you, the hope of death. He is death in you. That is what he is.

So the tribulation is what is about to happen and is already happening to Satan’s carnal mind in the minds of the men where Christ is being formed and mature enough to be waging war. He is waging war against their carnal minds and f- -- with the full intent of forcing him down under the feet of Christ.

Now, what is Christ’s position? Does anybody remember? What is Christ’s position in relationship to the carnal mind when this war starts?

He is underneath [CROSSTALK]

He is underneath the carnal mind. How did that happen? Let us put it on the board. Want to turn this a little, Joseph, so you could see?


OK, we draw the souls of men as a circle diagram type, just to simplify it, and the Scripture says that the Holy Ghost enters into the heart of a man, OK. This is a soul. We are members of the living soul. His name is?


Adam. Adam has within him a mind. OK. By the nature of the mind, we know whether we are speaking about righteous Adam or fallen Adam. Adam is fallen in this hour, so the name of his mind is?


Carnal. Another way of saying that it is flesh. This is the mind which is born of the flesh. Another way of saying it: This is the mind which the living soul brought forth of itself. The way Jesus said it in parable form was something just cropped up in His garden. No one planted it; it just appeared one day. It grew of itself. Sometimes He calls it a tare. It came forth without the seed of God, raised up its own mind. The carnal mind, the mind of the flesh, it is a weed. It has to be ripped out. It is killing the plant -- or it is killing the -- it is killing the Earth of the soul. I do not know if it is killing it. It is polluting the Earth of the soul so that the planting of the Lord cannot grow there. That is what is happening.

So the Scripture tells us that the Holy Ghost is coming from a man, and He is entering into the heart of man. Now, heart and mind -- in the Hebrew, there is one word that describes heart and mind, OK, and, in the Greek, they break it down to two words, but it is basically referring to the mind. I really do not want to get too much off my topic right now. Let me -- how do they break it down? The mind -- let me -- let me give it to you. The mind is responsible for rational thought, and the heart is -- oh, the mind -- rational thought and the will -- excuse me, the will -- willpower, rational thought. And the heart -- this always used to confuse me. The heart is referring to that part of the mind which is emotional, but a godly emotion. Oh, now, the emotion that comes out of the soul, the Scripture calls it female.

I keep saying if the women’s libbers ever get a hold of this message, they are going to cru- -- these messages, they are going to crucify me. Male and female is a scriptural type of strong and weak. It has nothing to do with human beings. Why does it have nothing to do with human beings? Because there is no male or female in Christ Jesus. Spiritual things have to do with your mind.

Now, if you have a female mind -- and you do not have to be -- nobody is all one or the other. Depending on the moment, you could either have a female mind or a male mind. The only person that has a male mind 100 percent of the time is the Lord Jesus Christ. In this hour, if you do not have Christ at all, OK -- if you do not have Christ all, as far as the Lord is concerned, your mind is female. Now -- boy, I feel like I am getting out of -- is everybody following me? I feel like I am going off on all kinds of tangents tonight.

In this world, for people that do not know Christ, the Lord has set up a standard by which people can live in harmony and in peace, and He has made a way, basically, through His laws that affect living -- OK, we find evidence of the laws of Christ all over the world -- respective authority, through order -- having families that are in order, having a life that is in order -- this glorifies God if you are a Hindu or if you are a Buddhist, and it is satisfying a natural law which permits the blessings of God to fall upon you down here in hell. OK.

So we do have people in this Earth who are not in Christ who you could say, for the purposes of this world system, have a male mind -- people who are raised up as leaders, who are rational, who are not overly emotional, who are decision-makers, who make decisions based on facts and reality, not based on their emotions. So for this world system, that would be a male mind, someone who does what is best for the group without getting all caught up in a puddle of emotion. We have leaders in this world. So, for this world system, we have male minds, and then people who are very emotional and would make their decisions based on their emotions, which -- because -- decisions which could wreck their life, OK, not based on any fact or any knowledge of any consequence at all.

So that is the male and female mind of this system, but as far as spiritual matters are concerned, once Christ comes into the picture, no matter how masculine your mind is for this world system, as far as the Lord is concerned, if it is -- if it is -- if your masculinity of your mind is a manifestation of the carnal mind, as far as Lord Jesus Christ is concerned for spiritual purposes, you have a female mind. Is everybody OK? OK.

So the emotion that comes out of the soul is emotion that has the potential to be destructive. It must be under authority. It is female -- it is weak. It has the ability of leading you into destructive behavior. Emotion that comes out of the soul, it needs to be controlled, and the controller is -- does anybody know who the controller is? The controller is the mind.


The mind, the mind. The mind is designed to control the emotions of the soul which have the potential to get out of control. They do not know when to say when. They do not know when enough is enough. They do not know when to stop. There is [sic] emotions coming out of your soul. They need to be under the control of a mind. Everybody likes to eat. Eating is beneficial. It keeps us alive. If you did not have a function of your mind telling you that you have had enough to eat, you could eat yourself to death. The soul needs a controller, and that controller is the mind.

So the emotions that come out of the soul have the potential to be destructive. They need to be under authority. The emotions that come out of the mind are male emotions -- you might be able to say that. They are male emotions because you have to have some emotion. You have to be able to recognize that somebody needs a touch of compassion or that somebody is lying on the street and they are starving to death. You have to be able to look at them and say, well, help that man, but it is an emotion that is not destructive. It is an emotion that works with the rational thought and with willpower to do righteousness.

So I used to -- when I used to study this, I looked up these words in Strong’s, and I would get all confused because I looked up the definition of the mind, and it would s- -- of the heart, and it would say mind, will and emotions. And then I would look up the definition for the soul, and it would say the same thing, and the reason it would say -- have you ever looked that up and found out that it meant -- you get the same definitions. The reason you get the same definitions is that this carnal mind is the mind that is born of the flesh. They are the same thing. Instead of the carnal mind controlling the emotions of the soul, the carnal mind is saying go, man, go. Kill yourself. Is that not true? Do it, do it, do it! Do it. That is Satan in the mind of a man. He is killing every one of us.

So, getting back to my point -- Lord, I just pray that You keep me on the track tonight. I feel like I am all over the place for some reason. Maybe this is what I am supposed to be doing.

OK, the Holy Ghost appears in a man -- it could be a preacher; it could be a friend -- and He decides to speak to the heart of an unconverted person, and the Holy Ghost is Jesus in a man, and Jesus said, “My words are spirit, and my words are?


Life. So the words enter into the heart of the unconverted man. I lost my point. What did I start to tell you?


Oh, we are talking about the tribulation. What were you saying?


Yeah, OK. OK, we w- -- I was getting to the tribulation. OK.

So the mind of Christ starts to come forth -- OK, I know what I was doing. I was saying that the Holy Ghost enters into the heart of man -- the heart of man, which is carnal, and the Holy Ghost enters right in, and we get the mind of Christ forming within the carnal mind. That is what I was trying to show you. He enters into the carnal mind, and the carnal mind becomes a womb which begins to hold the Christ, or the man-child of Revelation 12.

So when Christ is first formed, He enters in as a?

A seed?

A seed. He enters in as a seed, and of course the seed has to sprout and has to get some strength, and as soon as that seed gets strength, He starts attacking the carnal mind that is lying on top of Him. And the way that you know that Christ is ma- -- is engrafted to you and is manifesting in you is when this warfare starts hitting your carnal mind. Now, the big problem is that, brethren, we are carnal. We are the person -- we -- which is expressing our carnal mind. Christ is the invading force, and when He starts attacking our carnal mind, as far as we are concerned, He is attacking us. He is attacking us.

And our natural example -- or the natural example that I always use is France during World War II. They were occupied by the Germans, and the Allies determined to set them free. And the Allies came in and they bombed France, and they bombed Frenchmen, and they bombed French women, and they bombed French children, and they bombed French businesses, and they bombed French farms, and they bombed French property. And a lot of people got killed, and a lot of things got destroyed.

And, as far as France was concerned, it was no different experience for them being bombed by the Allies than it was being bombed by Hitler. It was the same experience. The only thing that was different was the result of the bombing. The bombing by Hitler brought them into captivity, and the bombing of the Allies delivered them from captivity, but without an understanding that it was the Allies bombing them for the purpose of delivering them, the French people would have had no -- they would have been very discouraged. For all they knew or would have known, it was another oppressor coming in to take France out of the hands of the Germans, and they would have still been in captivity.

So this is what happens to us. When Christ -- when heavy tribulation comes into your life, if you are serving God with all you have got, you should at least question the possibility that Christ has found His way into your heart and is bombing your carnal mind, which is you. If the shoe fits --


I do not know, Tracy [SP]. If the shoe fits, wear it. That is why Jesus said when tribulation falls on you, you should be rejoicing. When I first heard that, I said, I must be reading this wrong. I am supposed to be rejoicing when tribulation hits me? Yeah, because it means that your liberation is drawing nigh. [UNINTELLIGIBLE] You are right there when the bombs are falling, but there is no other way.

So we are giving you -- what we are doing here is a diagram of the tribulation. So Christ is in there. He is lying under the carnal mind. Our natural example is a wrestling match. The carnal mind has Christ down with both His shoulders pressed on the mat -- and all the Pharisees are screaming, how could Christ be on the mat with both His shoulders down? Brethren, not the Father Jehovah -- not talking about Jehovah. Neither am I talking about the glorified Lord Jesus Christ. I am talking about Christ in you, the hope of glory, who started as a mustard seed, who is just beginning to come forth. The Father is never down with His shoulders on the mat, but you are, are you not? OK.

So Christ is lying there underneath, and He starts exercising power of the mind. Now, picture this -- a physical wrestling match. The guy is completely pinned, but he has spiritual powers, and he starts attacking the mind of the wrestler that has got him pinned from the top of his head to the bottom of his toes.

And what happens when you start expressing spiritual -- a spiritual attack? The attack comes from the outside. You are laying there on the mat -- Christ is lying there on the mat, and He is calling down judgment, and, all of a sudden, a tree falls on this guy’s head, the guy that is on top of Christ. The wrestler that is on top, a tree falls down and hits him on the head, but he will not let go. So someone comes along and trips on him and accidentally stabs him with a knife, and he still will not get up and let Christ up. The next thing that happens is the building goes on fire, and the fire is raging all around this mat where this wrestling match is going on, and it hits the guy lying on top of Christ, and he starts to burn, and he gets up and he runs.

So all this is happening to you. The tree is falling on your head. Someone is stabbing you with a knife. There is fire and destruction and trouble and torment everywhere, and what is happening to you is that Christ in you is saying to your carnal mind, let go of this one because he has been apprehended by the Lord. And without this understanding in your heart you are going to think your life is completely out of control, that you have completely lost it. It is enough to make you flip without this understanding. Have you lost all control of your life?

You know, when I was in Nigeria -- this last trip, when I was in Nigeria, I had a few meetings at one home fellowship, and then I went to another city, and when I came back three weeks later, one -- what was her name? She got a hold of you. Delhi [SP]. She told you her whole life was going crazy. She could not figure out what was going on, and [?June?] said, “Oh, that happens after we preach here.” Is that what you told her? Yeah. So you will get used to it, yeah.

If you do not have the message, you cannot figure out what is happening to you. It is frightening. Your whole life is being wrecked, but your whole life is being wrecked so that the Lord can give you a new life. The Lord taketh away the first so that He can establish the second. The old -- the first must wax old so that the new can be imparted to you.

Now, when I was younger, I used to want -- I used to want guarantees. I used to say I want the new before I would let go of the old, and I found out that it does not work that way. I really believed it. The Lord just laughed at me. You have to let go of the old. You have to have faith in Christ. You have to tread water until He brings your new life in. No guarantees, and then there is no easy way.

So Christ is in you, and He is literally controlling the circumstances of your life. From this internal position in your mind, He is sending out vibrations from His mind to your external circumstances, and He is saying fall on this one. Financial difficulties, fall on this one. Problems with personal relationships, fall on this one. Problems with your employer, fall on this one.

That is why I am laughing. [INAUDIBLE]

Sickness sometimes, not all the time, fall on this one. Mental distress, over here -- over here; this guy right here. Hatred from people that you have been nothing but kind to, over here. Lies from people that do not even know you, over here. Gossip, envy from people you have been nothing but kind to, over here.


He is lying on His back and calling all this stuff down on you, and the purpose of it is to destroy y- -- well, it is just start by weakening and ultimately destroying your carnal mind. And the way the Scripture describes it is forcing Satan into the bottomless pit, but what Jesus is trying to do -- it is -- actually, it is Christ in you. What He is trying to do is weaken this carnal mind to such a degree so that He can -- let me just erase this so I can give you another diagram.

What He wants to do -- what Christ wants to do is expand. He wants to expand. He wants to become as big as the carnal mind and eventually pass through him so that Christ can be lying on top and the carnal mind is underneath. And when the carnal mind goes down underneath, he has been forced down into the bottomless pit, and he is held there by a chain -- is he not chained in the bottomless pit? -- and the name of the chain is Christ. Did Paul not say this chain that binds me, Christ? Christ is the chain that holds Satan down in the bottomless pit.

And the word -- the Greek word translated tribulation, if you do a word study on it and if you follow it back to its roots, you will find out that what it means is to be forced down under. Satan is being brought under the authority of the Christ.

And, as I always teach you, these mystical Scriptures, they have got to be made real to us. The Lord has not given us a -- [AUDIO CUTS OUT] -- not given us a book of fantasy. He has given us a book that has meaning for your life, for your personal life, and before we can find out what it means to us, we have to find out who Satan is and where he is. Who is he? Who is Satan?


Yeah. He is the unconscious mind of fallen man, and he has an expression of himself in our consciousness, and the -- sometimes the Scripture calls that expression the mouth. The mouth of the beast is the carnal mind. That which speaks for Satan is the carnal mind. So it is your carnal mind, it is my carnal mind that is being forced down into the bottomless pit under the authority of Christ, and it is happening through fiery trials and tribulation that are falling on us because we at this time, or at least when we start out, we are an expression of the carnal mind, which is an expression of Satan. That is what we are.

Do not tell me we are in the image of God. We are not in the image of God. Jesus sa- -- told the Pharisees, “Your father is the devil.” It is just the pride of man that says we are in the image of God. We are not in the image of God for a second. “The heart of man is desperately wicked; who could know it?” We are capable of every evil work. In the book of Ezekiel, the Lord describes the workings of the fallen mind of man as insects and pestilence crawling on the walls of His temple.

So when we talk about full stature, what we are talking about is Christ ascending in us -- because He is our new sun -- S-U-N, sun. He is the sun of our -- anybody know the Scripture? He is the sun of our righteousness because right now we have a sun which is a shame unto us. Our sun, the sun of our fallen person, when we compare him to Christ, he is a shame. He is a shame. That is what the Scripture says.

So we have a new sun arising in us, a sun of righteousness, and when our sun of righteousness appears in the sky of our mind, what is going to happen to the present sun that we have? It is going to be covered over as with sackcloth. So we hear -- we read about in the book of Revelation and in the prophets, the sun will be darkened, covered over with sackcloth.

And the moon, which is speaking about our soul, what is going to happen to that? Anybody? It is going to become blood. What does that mean? The blood of Jesus is going to cover over our soul. We were fallen, and we will be made righteous. We were -- are so filled with sin that we were crimson, but we shall be made white as snow. When our righteousness arises to cover over our sins and when Christ lies over our sins, which is the carnal mind and the soul expressing the carnal mind, OK, that is the fulfillment of the Scripture which says love covers a multitude of sins. The love of God and the -- which is Christ, when He lies over your soul and over your carnal mind, He prevents you from sinning. That is the covering over -- the true covering over of your sin. He prevents you from sinning.

So tribulation is intimately associated with the experience we call full stature. It is the same experience looking at it from opposite directions. Full stature is the exaltation of Christ to the position of lord and master -- lord and master of your very person. That means there is nothing that you think, say or do that comes out of your own will, but you only think, say and do what the Lord Jesus Christ thinks, says and does through you.

Now, to the natural man this sounds horrible. It sounds like total control, and it is frightening, the thought of being that controlled. The problem is we do not have a revelation of how controlled we are by Satan at this time. We think that everything that we do is our own idea, but, brethren, the truth is that we do not have any original ideas. Every human being alive is controlled by a spirit. Either that spirit is the Lord Jesus Christ or that spirit is Satan. Now, that is shocking to a lot of people, but it is still the truth. It is still the truth.

So, this fear of being controlled, what you are really experiencing is the fear of Satan manifesting through you. He has had full control of all of the vessels of humanity for thousands of years, and the thought -- Satan’s thought of coming under the authority of Christ and not being able to freely manifest at will is terrifying to him, and you are feeling his fear because Christ is coming to save you from the beast. But the Bible clearly says that fallen man will fight against Christ. Why? Because we are completely possessed of Satan’s carnal mind. So we will fight against the one who is coming to liberate us, and that is how much our mind is taken over.

So back to my point. The tribulation and the experience known as full stature are the same event. The reason they have different names is the -- is that each name is referring to a different aspect of the event. The word or the experience known as full stature is referring to the exaltation of Christ in the man, and the word tribulation is referring to the covering over or the crushing or sometimes we have found Scriptures that said the castration of the carnal mind. He is not going to be able to manifest anymore. He is not going to be able to possess the creation anymore, but it is the same event.

And then there are other symbols that speak about this event also. One of the symbols -- does anybody know another symbol speaking about this event? The lake of fire. The lake of fire. The beast and the false prophet and hell and death and the whole ball of wax is being thrown into the lake of fire. Who is the lake of fire? Christ is the lake of fire. So we see Christ expressed as fire consuming every aspect of our carnal mind. And then we have the winepress. The crushing of the grapes typifying this mind -- the crushing of the mind so that the wine of the Spirit of God can flow out completely and no longer be hindered. It is all the same event being looked at from different aspects so that we can understand that there are many parts to this procedure.

It is just like saying I look at Mary and I see one woman, but underneath that skin she has a heart and many different organs -- a spleen, a liver, millions of cells, blood. God breaks this event down for us because we are so immature and spiritually childish that we could never understand this thing without His giving us a kindergarten lesson. Now, if you are upset at what I am saying, you have pride because I am just telling you the truth -- including me. There is a lot I ju- -- that I do not know.

Jesus said, “I have much to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.” You could not even bear to hear it. If I told it to you, you would not believe it. You would get upset, and people get upset and walk out of here. I have people that will not even talk to me, and I know that I do not have it all. Why? Because I am not in full stature. Jesus was in full stature, and He said, “I have things to tell you that you cannot bear.” Well, things about what? About the world coming to an end? No, things about what your roots are, what your origin is, where you came from, how you got to be the way you are, what is coming upon you in the near future and what the end of you is. You could not bear it, and we have had some truth come forth here that a lot of people cannot bear.

And, as I said, it is not the whole thing. We had prophecy not too long ago that there is more revelation coming forth. It could take a year or two for the prophecy to come to pass. It was just a month ago that we got this word. Is something else coming forth? People cannot bear it, the truth about themselves. They cannot even hear that they are not in the image of Christ. They want to think they are righteous. They want to think they are good. They want to think that their filth is clean. You know, your filth is just as dirty as everybody’s else -- everybody else’s.

I tell you all the time, I do not care how much deodorant you use, what kind of perfume you use -- I do not care if you put a $400 suit on you, brethren, you are just as filthy as the guy lying in the street. Now, if you want to fool yourself, you fool yourself, but you are not fooling Jesus, and I am telling you the truth [?because?] none of that stuff is going to save your life. None of that stuff is going to save your soul, and it does not mean a thing to the Lord. He is not impressed with your deodorant. He is not impressed.

That is why the Pharisees go crazy when the Lord picks somebody up that does not have their qualifications. They want you to go to their Bible school. They want you to have their degree. They want you to preach their doctrine. They want you to do it their way, and they want you to come in submission to them. Brethren, any minister truly called of God answers to no one but Christ. If you have got a man over you, you are a spiritual woman, and women are not supposed to be teaching in the church. They are supposed to be what in the church? Silent. If you think it is easy being just under Christ, you better try it some time. Man, if He has not called you, you will never stand without a denomination.

So this is what the tribulation is, and it is not a fantasy in the book of Revelation. It is happening to you in your mind, in your life. Your old ways are being crushed down under the new day of Christ, and if you want to get a general idea of what your life is going to be like, read the Bible. Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt love the neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, thy mind and thy soul.

And, let me tell you something, if He is telling you to go left and you are going right, you are not loving Him with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul. You have got to do what He tells you. He has just been winking at us for all these years. He thinks we are cute brethren. He is saying “coo-chi-coo [SP],” and -- except He is not going to be saying “coo-chi-coo [SP]” muss long- -- much longer because the hour of our maturity is at hand, and He wants us, and He wants to join with us, and He wants to appear in us, and He has no intention of riding us with us telling Him where He is going. Israel is the goodly horse of the Lord. We are His horse. He pulls on the right rein; He does not like it when we go left. When He pulls on the right rein, He wants us to go to the right.

I just had another thought in my mind. Where did it go? Where did it go? Yeah, if you think I am c- -- I mean, I know that I make jokes because what I preach is so serious that it is really hard to take, so sometimes I crack a lot of jokes, but I tell you s- -- I tell you seriously that God has been saying “coo-chi-coo [SP]” to us, but it is all over. It is all over, and if you do not know that it is over, you are going to have a rude awakening -- a very rude awakening. It is all over. He is not giving us gifts anymore. He is tapering them off. He wants us to come into submission to Him. He wants to appear in us. He wants the use of our body. He wants the use of our mind. He wants our legs to go where He tells them to go. He wants our mouth to say what He wants us to say because we are the mouth of the Lord. We were the mouth of the carnal mind.

Did you not hear of a lawyer called a mouthpiece? [UNINTELLIGIBLE] We are the mouth of the carnal mind, and He wants -- the Lord wants us to be His mouth. He wants us to stop speaking blasphemy and to start speaking the words of life. Did not [sic] the apostle James say, “How can this be, sweet and saltwater coming out of the same mouth?” It is an abomination unto the Lord. You are a perversion. You are a spiritual per- -- and me too. We are spiritual perversions. That is what we are. We are people who were spiritually born with both sexes. Have you ever heard of that happening to human beings? It happens. They are freaks. We are freaks.

Now, look, you have to go one way or the other. Jesus said, “I wish you were hot or cold, but if you are lukewarm, I will?”


“Spew you out of my mouth.” You are worthless to me. “Either you are for me or you are against me.” “You cannot serve God and mammon.” “Choose ye this day who you will serve.” Party is over. The announcement is going forth.

How long it is going to take to become real in your life, I do not know, but what does this mean to you? If He has truly called you and you are not doing what He tells you, you are going to feel pain, the pain of correction. He is not going to torture you with burnt cigarettes, but you are going to run into spiritual problems that are going to cause you distress, and what the message is -- you are going the wrong way; turn around -- because He is reeling everybody in in this hour. And, I remind you once again, this soul is growing up. It is coming-of-age. We are not a child anymore. What does that mean, brethren? We are told in the Scripture that we are ready for a joining -- a mature joining with the Spirit.

Now, look. Brethren, look at your natural children. They are basically sexless. Well, they have physical sexual characteristics, but they are not functioning in any sexual role. They are male and female. They are children. Anybody have a problem with that? They both -- in their minds, they are both male and female.

The living soul right now is both male and female. We are good and we are evil. We are the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We are mixed. We cannot stay mixed. We have to grow up and become either good or become evil, and that is what is coming on the Earth. It is already starting, and it is coming. In the very near future, everyone on this Earth is either going to be good, they are going to be righteous in Christ, or they are going to be given over to Satan and they are going to be evil. Does anybody not understand what I am saying?

You cannot stay a mixture anymore. You cannot stay a child anymore. There is a spirit coming for you, and He wants to marry you. You are old enough to get married. Either you are going to marry Christ and you are going to be righteous, or Satan is going to continue to possess you in a more mature level, and you will become a full expression of him -- evil. So choose this day who you will serve because you will serve one or the other. The days of your childhood have come to an end. Time to grow up. No one likes this message, but it is the truth, and if you do not serve the living God, whether you agree to it or not, you will be possessed of Satan.

So get on the stick, brethren. You have a lot of work to do. And what is the work? What is the labor that is going to bring you into righteousness? Submit yourself to God. [UNINTELLIGIBLE] resist the devil and --


-- he will flee from you.

How do you start? You submit yourself to God with your mind. Say, “Father, I am a mess. I have no power over this, and I am -- if You will just help me, I am open to anything You will do for me.” And then when the bombs start falling on you, just cry out to God that He should help you to not sin, and He will do it.

Resist the devil -- do the right thing. How do you know what is the right thing? You have to read the Bible. You have to listen to a preacher. You have to find out what is right, and then, I do not care what you are feeling in your emotions, do the right thing. Do not hurt people with your selfishness. You might think it is a little thing. It is not a little thing. It is a sin to God. Treat people right as you would have them to treat you. Would you like that if they did that to you?

So this is what is happening in this hour, brethren. It is real. It is not a Bible story. It is real. Any questions about this? Anybody?

OK, I was going to go on with this message [UNINTELLIGIBLE]


What you were saying is very true. There was a situation that came up, and, my husband and I, we had prayed and sought the Lord for instruction, and the Lord gave us instruction.


And it turned out that we did not follow the instruction, and we got -- we got -- I believe we got cheated out of some money --


-- a subst- -- a substantial sum.

And we when we went to a -- to the place, you know, to finish our business, a man -- my husband sent me in, and I said, you know, I will go in, no problem, just, you know, pay them and whatnot. And he -- the man that I met, he asked, well, what was -- what happened with the business transaction and what went on and everything like that. And I said, well, this and such is what, you know, happened. He is, like, “That is strange. You know, you should have gotten more money than that,” you know. And when he said that, I just -- I was, like -- it just rocked my world. It just did something to me. I was -- I was all upset. I could not hear what the man was saying to me after as to what I needed for him or anything like that.

And I went out to the car, and I was trying hard to fight tears, and my husband was saying, “What is wrong? What is wrong? What did they say,” you know. And I just told him. I said, do you know what? I said, the Lord g- -- we asked the Lord for instruction, and we did not follow the instructions, I said, and the result was we got cheated out of the money. I said, I am not -- I said -- I was a little upset, to be honest, about being cheated out of the money, but I was upset also, and I think more so, because I did not follow what the Lord had said.

And my husband did not seem to quite understand, you know. I was, like, you are not understanding me. I said, we -- I did not follow the instruction that the Lord gave me. I told him. I said, the Lord -- I said, I believe the Lord is trying to move me into a -- an intimate relationship, an intimate place with Him, I said, and here I failed again because I did not follow exactly what He had told me to do, you know. So it -- I was just all upset and just what you were saying right here today, it is very true. It is very true.

And then the Lord gave me something, you know, that night while I was praying, and it seems to go with the message. Like I said, I do not know because --


-- I do not know about, you know, spiritual dreams or anything like that, but it talks about the mind being on fire. It talks about, you know, Satan roaring as a lion, seeking whom he may devour, and the coals of fire being thrown down to the -- upon the Earth where the lion was from the altar of God and, you know, things like that.

And it was -- you know, when you had said that, you know, you believe that the Lord is calling you, you know, to full stature and things like that, I was, like -- I am sitting here, and I am, like, man, you know, like, here, I cannot even listen. I mean, I am hearing, but I cannot seem to get my feet going in the right direction that the Lord told me to go, so, yeah.

Well, it takes practice. It is a real labor. I have been at this for years. I -- what is coming to my mind right now goes back several years ago where I had a dream, and I woke up. I think I did not take the time to pray about it, and I wound up with my car stuck on Nichols [SP] Road, which is a highway over here where there is no public transportation. I had to get myself towed. The whole thing could have been avoided. The Lord told me to do it a certain way, and I never prayed about the dream. It was not until after I got stuck on Nichols [SP] Road -- it must have cost me $100 to get myself -- ridiculous -- absolutely ridiculous, a loss of $100 -- until I realized that the Lord had told me what to do, and I did the exact opposite and it cost me the $100, but there is safety and there is deliverance in obedience to Christ.

I found this out after many years of messing up. So I tell everybody do not look at me and get discouraged because I have been working at this for years. And I remember once I had a decision to make -- again, a financial decision -- and I decided not to do something, and I thought that I had based my decision on Bible principles. I had, you know, thought it through and prayed it through. And I had a dream that night, and when I -- and now every dream I have I pray about -- Lord, what are You saying to me? -- because I found out that if I get a spiritual communication and I assume that I know the answer without praying about it, I am really in danger of making a mistake. I want to know what God’s -- I want God’s interpretation of it.

And I had a dream that night, and I said, well, Lord, what? Are You telling me to do this? I had just decided not to do it. And I prayed and prayed, and I could not see it -- I could not see it, but I was convinced it was God, and I did it and I really said a lot of money. I would have really suffered loss if I did not do what He told me.

So a lot of people have trouble believing that the Lord is involved in these little details of our life, but He is very involved in our life. He is involved -- I mean, I -- when I first started this ministry, I had a lot of -- you see, no -- but I never learned from a man. Everything I have ever learned, I have learned directly from God, even how to run this ministry, and I always found out when I made a financial mistake -- if I made a purchase that the Lord did not approve of, the next time I looked in my checkbook there was no money. Every time I opened that checkbook and there was no money, I said, I am sorry. I do not know what I did or what I -- what did I buy that I should not have bought? You know, and I want to tell you that there were several times I had to put my own money back into the ministry checkbook. The Lord said, “I never told you to get it.” As soon as I put the money back in, the money -- finances started coming in again.

So I have been under heavy direction from God for many years, and I sa- -- I had many experiences where He spoke to me, and I just did not understand the symbols. I just did not understand it. So all this knowledge I have is from a procedure that I just lived my life by it. I see something; I hear something; I pray about it, and I do the best I can. If I mess up, I repent. I asked the Lord to show me where I went wrong so that I could know for the next time, and I just kept following my nose, and what you see today is what happened to me from this open relationship with the Lord. I said, Lord, teach me.

And I want to tell you that I have been in painful situations that any person in their right mind would have gotten out of there, and I have stayed in those situations because the Lord told me to do it, and I have just grown. My whole life has grown and blossomed. And another primary example of that is coming to my mind. And beware of people -- carnal people’s advices to you. They will kill you with their carnal minds, with their well-meaningness [sic] to you. They will utterly destroy your life.

I spent at least three years working in Manhattan. It is a two and a half hour ride from this place -- two and half hours there; two and half hours back, plus I was -- I was preaching twice a week. It was in [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- and I was sick. I -- it is -- I do not know how I did it. I had all these people coming to me saying, the Lord does not want you doing that. It cannot be God. Give up your job [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- I knew -- I did not even want to do it, OK. I complained day and night to the Lord, and I was really aggravated by these so-called well-meaning Christians coming to me and saying, I am so concerned about you. This cannot be God.

And I want to tell you that I kept up that pace. It was horrendous. I kept it up until God released me from it. I have worked for men that have severely persecuted me. You would not believe what I have been through on my jobs, and I knew that I could not quit until -- I had to get fired. That was the covenant God made with me. I -- He would not -- He never let me quit -- now, this is me. I am not saying it is true anybody else. He never let me quit a job.

And then, finally, the last full-time job that I had, I went into -- as I walked through the doors to the office one morning the Lord spoke to me, and He said, “This time you are going out in --.” I do not remember His word, but it was a good word. This time you are going out with respect or something, because I had been so humiliated by people I worked for. Something like that -- you are going out in victory.

So -- now listen to this -- I drew the conclusion that He was going to let me q- -- He was finally going to let me quit a job. This -- you would not believe what this man did to me. This man was so cruel to me that the office manager called me, and she said, “Sheila, let me ask you a personal question. Why do you not quit this job, the way he is treating you?” He would not give me my raise. He lied about me. He humiliated me publicly. She said, “[UNINTELLIGIBLE] what is wrong with you? Why do you not quit this job?” And I would not tell her, you know. And what am I going to say to her, you know? So I just stayed under it, and that day I walked through the door -- and things had really gotten bad -- bad -- I mean, jus- -- the whole office rose up against me, and I just stood there, and I said, Lord -- I said, Lord, this is really bad, Lord. I do not know that I can take anymore.

And the next day I walked into the office in the morning and He -- the Lord spoke to me. He said, “This time you are going out in victory,” and I expected to get fired. I thought -- I thought I was going to quit, and nothing happened. Nothing happened. It was a Friday. And I said, oh, well. I guess I did not hear the Lord, and I came in on Monday, and I got fired. I said, Lord, what are You talking about? I thought I was going in victory this time.

But what happened was I was called into the office manager’s office, and I had an opportunity to witness to her -- to minister to her, and I told her -- I said, do you know this is the fourth man like this that I have worked for, and the Lord sends me, and then I pray for them until He releases me, and I hope that this man gets some help because he is -- I do not know what I said. He -- well, he was insane. He was absolutely insane. Everybody knew he was insane, but he still nee- -- you know, he still needed help.

So I witnessed to her. I told her I was a minister. I gave her messages, the whole thing, and that was the Lord’s concept of me going out victory, but I still got fired, you know, the humiliation of it. I have been fired all over this island. I have been fired from better places than you would ever know. So there is -- it has just been a lot of humiliation, but he showed me that I had to stand until He told me to go, that we are to be like horses that are for military policeman. You know, you kn- -- you do not move -- or soldiers. You do not move until the battle sounded -- battle cry is sounded. You do not go. It does not matter how much hurt they are causing you; it does not matter what your pain is, you do not move until the Lord says go.

And, this last job, the reason the whole office rose up against me was because they could not believe what I was letting this man do to me. He was screaming at me in the halls of the whole office so severely that when I came back one of the other attorneys came over to me, and he did not want -- he did not want my boss to hear anything. He said, “Are you all right?” He says, “Nobody should be treated like that.” That was all he could bring himself to send me.

That day I had gone out to lunch. I said, Lord, this is really getting hairy, you know. I said -- I said, this is crazy, Lord, and He would not let me quit, and the other workers in the office were so offended by this that they all -- they all rose up and were talking about me. They thought it was crazy. Saying terrible things about me. And then -- and then he fired me. He fired me, but he fired me in a fit -- the man was mentally ill. He fired me in a fit of anger, and the Lord said to me, “He is going to call you back, and I want you to go back.”

So he had the office manager call me, and I went back, and that was when the whole office rose up against me. They thought I was this sick person that was letting this man treat me like this, and they decided to punish me because I went back. And then it got really bad, and that was when I said, Lord, this is bad, Lord, and that was the Lord’s -- that was what the Lord said, I was going out victory. They still fired me, so I know what humiliation is, you know.

And -- OK, one second. And the Lord will let you be humiliated. Why? Because it kills your pride. It kills your pride. There is no place for pride in service to God, so if you want all of the benefits of God, if you want everything that He has to offer you, you have to be in submission to Him. You have to be obedient Him, and if you have pride, you cannot be, so He takes a stick to your pride. And the -- and if you are called to service, you can expect severe trials. Yeah?

Was this man abusive and violent to anyone else in the office?

Oh, yeah, he was insane. Even the others attorneys could not stand him.


Yeah, yeah. I guess I am not going to do that tonight. Let us just go with the flow.

You teach that the meaning of Christ is the operation of God in human flesh. Now, I do not know why I am not p- -- understanding this, but Christ slain from the foundation of the world, does that mean when Adam fell, the bones of Christ were broken? Or is that referring to the very initial bringing forth of the --


-- whole --


-- universe or --

Yeah. That is a good question. As a matter of fact, I should have known it was coming because the Lord was talking to me about it just the other day. Would you put that on pause for a second? I just want to get my thoughts together.


OK, the Scripture says not Christ was slain, but the lamb was slain from the foundation of the Earth. The lamb was slain, OK? It just went out of my mind. Press the button again.


Stay in there. Now, the lamb -- the lamb is Christ grown up from seed. Well, let us review the two kinds of Christs.


OK, who is going to tell me the two different forms that Christ can appear in?

[?The imputed and imparted??]

OK. Anyone want to tell us the difference?

The imputed is when the Spirit of God comes on a man to do a specific thing, and the imparted anointing stays like it did on Jesus [CROSSTALK] --


-- came from the Jordan.

OK, let us make it a little more clearer. The imparted anointing grows in the heart of a man. Jesus said, “I am the true vine.” He said He is a vine. He said we are the planting of the Lord. He said, “I am the vine; you are the branches.” He described His church as grapes, OK. The imparted anointing starts from a seed -- Jesus called it a mustard seed -- and it grows up inside the man. That is what we are experiencing in this hour. It is the anointing of Christ combined with overcoming experiences.

What does that mean? It means that for a man to have the imparted anointing he must have Christ in him, and he must be overcoming his carnal mind and curses that are on his family line and every problem in his life by the power and the authority and the wisdom of the Christ which is in him, and every time Christ in this man overcomes, that Christ increases in stature. Christ grown up from seed -- let me see -- grows from seed.

The im- -- the imputed anointing appears. It has no growth. It appears on one level, and it stays on that level for as long as it abides on that man. And our natural example of that -- well, not our natural example. Our scriptural example of the --

Well, the imparted anointing grows from seed, and is typified by what animal? We just said it.

A lamb.

The lamb. Now, a lamb -- if you look up the Greek word for lamb, I believe -- well, not in every case, but certainly in the book of Revelation and cer- -- and where John the Baptist said, “Behold, the lamb of God, who is slain from the foundation of the Earth” -- or I think John just said, “Behold, the lamb of God.” This Greek word is the word for a lambkin, a male lamb under one year of age -- no more than one year of age. That is a baby lamb. A lamb -- a lambkin is a baby male sheep. Well, a sheep is female. Lamb is a baby sheep, and a lambkin, this word that is used in the Scripture, is a male baby sheep. Christ Jesus at the back of the book of Revelation with the many crowns on His head on the white horse, where it talks about being the lamb, that is a -- He is a lambkin. That is Christ Jesus growing up from seed and very young.

Does anybody remember the animal which typifies the imputed anointing in the Scripture? Anybody?


A ram. A ram, and a ram as we see him in Daniel 8. Now, to the best of my knowledge -- I could be wrong -- I do not know of any prototype of the imputed anointing in the New Testament. The New Testament speaks about the imparted anointing because that is our experience. Christ is growing up in us from seed, and He is becoming us and we are becoming Him, and the end of this whole process is that we shall be Christ. He is inheriting us. He -- we are s- -- we are soul. He is inheriting our soul, and He is taking everything that we are, including our body, and we are inheriting Him, and all of us is going to be swallowed up into the spiritual life of Christ. Are we not the bride of Christ? We are soul. We are marrying Christ, and we shall become Mrs. Christ. That is what we are becoming.

In the imputed anointing God chooses a man. Why? Because God wants to speak to men. God wants communication with humanity. We are His wife. No man has ever hated his own flesh. We are His wife. We have left Him -- we have left Him for another man. We ran away with this guy, and we fell down into a pit, and we are wallowing down here with our bastard child, whose name is?

[?The carnal mind.?]

And in the Old Testament she is called?

[INAUDIBLE] Babylon.

The daughter of Babylon, the whore of Revela- -- well, the whore of Revelation is Eve. That is our spiritual nature. He wants us back. He wants us back so bad He is taking our bastard child, and He is going to adopt him. That is why we are getting adopted. If we were the true sons of God, would we need to be adopted? We are bastards. We are the bastard offspring of God’s wife and Satan.

So with the imputed anointing God chooses a man because He has something to say to humanity. He wants to talk to us, and we cannot hear Him because we are dead. We are carnal. We are buried under the earth or under the seas of Satan’s mind. He talks, and we cannot hear Him, and if we hear Him, we cannot figure out what He means. We hear the words; we see the symbols; we say, oh, is that not nice? What is He talking about?

It is like a one-month-old baby. He said, “Are you not cute? Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh, I love you. I will never leave you. I will never forsake you. I will take care of you for the rest of your life.” And the baby goes, “Goo.” We do not know what He is talking about, so He wants to speak to us through men. So the Lord will lay hold of the mind of a man and capture it and temporarily join with it and speak through that man’s mouth something that He wants people to hear.

Now, the man has had no overcoming experiences with Christ. As a matter of fact, the seed probably has not even engrafted to his soul. He is just a man that is trying to serve God, who reads the Scriptures, and God lays hold of his mind. We are told in the book of Daniel, “And the angel grabbed a lock of Daniel’s hair.”

Brethren, no angel grabbed a lock of Daniel’s hair. You look up those words in the Hebrew, what it is saying is the angel joined with his mind. Hair typifies spirit in the Scripture. The angel came and joined with the human spirit of that man, and joined with him forcibly, forming a temporary, mature manifestation of the mind of Christ. It did not grow up from seed. It did not overcome anything. The man did not deserve it. The man could not hold onto it. It was just for the -- that one specific job that God wanted to do through that man, and we see this in the Old Testament prophets. We see this happening with the -- with the apostle John when he wrote the book of Revelation. God laid -- oh, well, I do not know about John. With John it was probably imparted. Let me take that back.

We see this with the Old Testament prophets. How do I know that it was not an imparted anointing? I know because when the anointing lifted off of the Old Testament prophets they were natural man. How do I know? Israel lost the anointing. How did Israel lose the anointing? It was not growing out of them from seed; it was given to them. Israel had a more mature expression of Christ than we have in the church today in most instances.

Oh, I hear the Pharisees screaming. It is true, and the reason that it is true is that God gave them a manifestation typified by a ram, which is a full grown -- a mature male sheep. He gave them an anointing likened to spiritual manhood, but they did not earn it. They had no overcoming experiences with it. It was -- they did not use it like a man would use his own mind. They received it, this anointing, for a specific purpose. Does anybody remember what the purpose is -- or the purpose was? Why did God give Israel this imputed anointing of such a high magnitude? What was the -- what was the overall purpose of God in Israel?


So that the time would come when the seed would be put into Mary to bring forth [CROSSTALK]

OK, and who is the seed?


Very good. All of the blessings that fell upon Israel were secondary. God had one overriding purpose, to bring forth the Christ out of Israel, and His anointing was to purify this nation of fallen man to such a degree where the Lord made a judgment it would be acceptable to bring forth His Christ, and every blessing that fell upon Israel and every member of Israel, every human being of Israel, was secondary.

And in this hour today, brethren -- all the Pharisees are going crazy; I am telling you the truth -- every blessing God has given you in your personal life is secondary. Every dollar He has given you, every Cadillac He has given you, every gift that you have prayed for and He has seen fit to give you is a byproduct of His purpose in the church today because God is not a man. His purpose transcends the mind of man. What is His purpose?


His purpose is the salvation of humanity, the deliverance of the whole of humanity from hell, even the guy you hate who lives down the street. So the imputed anointing is a mature anointing that has the ability to totally crush a man’s carnal mind. For the Hebrew prophets to have prophesied the way they prophesied, their carnal mind had to be rendered totally nonfunctional because the law of Moses itself said if a prophet prophesies one thing, that one false prophecy, what is the judgment? Death. Kill the guy. The sign of the false prophet -- one mistake.

Now, we have got a church filled with false prophets. How come? Because we are children. Because we are children. We are growing up from seed. He did not give us an established, mature anointing. We got a whole bunch of kids out there prophesying witchcraft prophecies. Sister Jones, you are going to marry Brother Smith. It is true, right? I saw a vision of you, sister. You are coming into money. Witchcraft in the church. How come fire is not coming down from heaven and killing them? Because God is winking at His kids. He is going “coo-chi-coo [SP].”

The imputed anointing, it appeared in Israel, a mature manifestation of the mind of Christ which utterly disengaged the carnal mind to such a degree that the Lord could say, “If that man makes one mistake, he is not of Me. Kill him.”

And the natural example we give of the imputed anointing is a 25-year-old man that suddenly materializes in the middle of Manhattan in 1993. He looks good. He is physically good. Maybe he could lift heavy things. I do not know, but he does not even know how to get food. He does not even know that he needs food. He cannot hold a job. He has no education. He cannot function in life. He does not know how to -- he has no language skills. He has no communication skills. He does not know how to protect himself from the storm or from bad weather. All of his physical strength will not keep him from perishing in this world. He has no experience. He does not know how to use what he has.

So natural Israel had an imputed anointing of spiritual manhood, and they had a written law that gave them word-by-word instruction about what they should do. Under every imaginable circumstance, they were told what to do. You see, they had the spiritual strength of the ram, but, brethren, wisdom is in Christ. Wisdom is in Christ. The imputed anointing is not Christ.

What is Christ? Christ is the reproduction of the life of God as your own mind. You have to learn to use it as your own mind. Israel ha- -- that is why they were under the law. They were not supposed to think. This is what you do under this circumstance. This is what you do under that circumstance. This is what you do under that circumstance. But with the imparted anointing, God wants us to not be a servant, but to be a son, and He said, “If you keep my commandments and you are My son, I am going to tell you all My secrets, and I am going to tell you all My plans. I am going to explain things to you. I am going to teach you how to make your independent decisions. I am going to teach you how to function without a written law.”

That is what is going on in the church today -- or it is what is supposed to be going on in the church today, but we have a whole bunch of Pharisees in the church that have an imputed anointing that want to put the whole church under the law. But those sons in whom the imparted anointing is growing up in them, they are rebelling against the pharisitical [sic] law in the church today, and there is a war going on in the church between the true sons in whom Christ is growing up from seed and the Pharisees in the church today who think that they are no longer under the law, but who are still under the law because until Christ starts to arise in you, you are under the law, and they do not have Christ. They have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not Christ. The Holy Spirit -- who is the Holy Spirit?

[?The Father’s seed.?]

[?What??Right.?] The seed of Chri- -- the seed that will join with your spirit which will cause Christ to be formed in you -- Christ in you, the hope of glory, the imparted anointing. If all you have is the sperm, brethren, you do not have the baby, and you are saved in childbearing. You are not saved by the sperm. OK?

So let us try to get back to our point here. So the lamb was slain so that the Earth could be founded, OK. So the lamb is the imparted mind of Christ, the Christ that grows up from seed, and what the Lord told me that that means is this: At the beginning of time, the Lord formed the man. OK, I do not believe he looked like us. I do not believe he had a body like this. I believe the man in that hour was a mind who did not have a physical body like this. You are free to disagree with me, but that is my, I believe, educated opinion. He was the mind of the creation, and -- I guess that is not -- let me -- let me change that. Let me change that.

We -- he was a man, OK, who was a soul. He was a living soul, but he was not in a -- in a physical body like this. He was visible, but he was not physical. He was visible, but he was spiritual. He was not visible and physical; he was visible and spiritual because this physical condition is a part of the curse, and the creation was not cursed at the time.

And there was a mind in that man. There was a mind in that man, and that mind was called Christ, and he was in such a form as that had the fall not occurred, he would have been able to grow up from seed. He would have pla- -- he would have been implanted in the -- in the soul, and he would have grown up from seed, but he was slain before he could grow up from seed. He was in s- -- Christ the lamb was in seed form in the creation at the beginning of time, the mind of Christ, and he was slain. It was that lamb -- and it is the lamb that is being raised from the dead. Did I a- -- you look confused.




OK. You see -- let me -- let me give you some more on that. We are told Jesus is the lamb. John said, “Behold, the lamb of God,” OK, when John saw Jesus coming. Now, when the man Jesus was in full stature and His mind was Christ, all of His person was called Christ. When our mind becomes Christ -- when your mi- -- when Christ in you ascends to full stature, we will legitimately be able to call you Mary Christ, OK, and your whole person could legitimately be called Christ.

So at the beginning of time when the mind in the creation was Christ, the whole creation -- Adam was Adam the Christ, OK, and Adam the Christ was called the lamb. He was a very young lamb who had had no experiences yet at all. He was waiting to have his experiences, and because of an act of disobedience, that mind of Christ was killed. So the lamb was killed from the beginning of the crea- -- from the beginning of time. That lamb was slain, and the Hebrew -- and the Greek word translated slain means to dress for market, cut into many pieces.

When that creation -- when righteous Adam, whose mind was Christ, when he was slain the creation broke down into the mil- -- billions of members of humanity that we see today, and this is a perversion. We have a couple of messages on that. This condition of humanity being in so many pieces is a perversion. It is a condition of the fall, and as the creation is raised from the dead, all things are being reconciled back into one because Christ is not divided.

So this division, this physical division -- and we are divided in the soul realm. We will have our individual personalities, and we fight with one another, and we disagree with one another. We have different opinions, and we strive with one another. This is a spiritual perversion. There was a time in the Earth when every man -- when all men were of one mind and one accord. They all said, thought the same thing and spoke the same thing. And what did they do when they were in that condition? Does anybody know? [AUDIO CUTS OUT] They built the Tower of Babel. They s- -- they sought to build a spiritual war machine that they hoped would bring God down out of the heavenlies under their authority.

So the Lord looked at these little brats, and He said, “You have got to be kidding!” He said, “Now, look, you are my creation, and I have no intention of wiping you out, but neither do I have any intention of letting you get away with this nonsense. So I am just going to start you fighting against yourselves until I am ready to bring you into maturity.” And God brought division upon the Earth. He spoke the word in the spirit. Eventually, man broke down into many members, many different languages, many different cultures -- a culture representing ways of thinking, ways of doing things, different colors, different habits, di- -- that is what He did to us, and we have been fighting ever since. He said, “Do not [sic] you fight Me; fight with each other. You are too strong when you are all of one mind and one accord.”

So this condition of separation is a temporary condition which is a spiritual perversion. Now, I do not want anyone misunderstanding me. We have a life down here in hell. We have an existence down here in hell. Now, do not anyone [sic] go out of here saying, “Sheila said we are perverse.” Compared to God’s ultimate -- compared to God’s standard, we are perverse, but this is our condition, and down here in hell we have natural types. We have human beings which are perverse, and we have human beings which are leading the best life or one of the better lives available to human beings down here in hell.

And our scriptural example is when Israel -- when Judah went into captivity in Babylon. They could not believe God was sending them into captivity, and the Lord said to him, “Stop fighting this thing. Just give it up. Go into captivity, build your houses, plant your vineyards; you are going to be there for 70 years. If you go to war, you are going to be destroyed. I have ordained that. You have been turned over.”

And God ordained that this human race, or this human- -- this creation has been turned over. Who are we turned over to?


Satan. God sold us. He sold us under sin. What does that mean? He s- -- who? The Lord separated from us in mind, and if we were not joined to another spirit, we would have ceased to exist. So when the Lord separated from us, He joined us to the spirit of Satan. We are told by the apostle Peter we are bound -- the an- -- we are the angels who fell. We are bound by chains of darkness, Satan, in this world system, reserved until?


The judgment, which will restore us to righteousness. God sold us. The seals of Satan’s ownership are our upon us. Where? In our toe?

[?In our minds.?]

[?In our minds.?]

In our minds, the way we think. That is why the Lion of the tribe of Judah has been sent, the one who is strong enough to open the seals on the book which we are.

Do not worry about getting the mark; you have already got it. You were born with it. It has got to be erased from your mind, and we have to get the seal or the mark of God. It is how we think. It is our mind. It is our mind which is sealing our soul. Our soul is made out of clay. The mind is typified by metal, and the concept of a seal is that you take a piece of metal and you squish it down into the clay, and it is reproduced in the clay. Well, it is our mind which molds our s- -- our soul and our personality. So the mark that we already have is the mark of the beast. We are fallen.

So let me just say that again. The righteous creation before the fall is the lamb. It was a creation that had the potential to grow up into mature spiritual manhood through many overcoming experiences, and it was that lamb, righteous Adam, or the first Adam -- also you could call him Christ. And we call him -- we have been calling him in some of our messages the immature Christ, the Christ without experience. At the beginning of time, he was the one who was slain and broken down into many billions and trillions of human beings from the found- -- from the de- -- foundation of the Earth.

Did I answer your question? OK, and it is the lamb who is being raised from the dead. It is Christ who is being raised from the dead.

You see, we get a lot of carnally minded people, including myself for many years, who read passages as in 1 Thessalonians -- as in 1 or 2 Thessalonians. I never can remember -- saying the dead are going to be raised. You know, it is not the individuals that died. The dead one is Christ. Christ is the dead one. The resurrection of the dead is the resurrection of the dead bones of Christ -- Ezekiel’s bones. When Christ died and the creation broke down into all these trillions of individuals, one of Christ’s bones is found buried in every individual born, but it is a spiritual bone, and we call it the human spirit. So that potential for resurrection is not in our body or in our soul; it is in our spirit, which is one of Ezekiel’s bones, one of the bones of the dead Christ.

Now, when the Father calls forth through His prophets and He says, “Live again,” every human being in whom a bone exists, when that bone raises up, the soul will receive life also. If that Spirit which raised Christ from the dead -- which raised Christ from the dead -- if that Spirit which raised the dead human spirit in the man Jesus from the dead dwells in you, it will quicken your mortal body, and we found out that the mortal body is your soul. When your spirit is raised from the dead, He will give life to your soul. So it is Christ who is being raised from the dead wherever He is, and Christ is in men who have an existence. Christ is not in the dead body lying in the grave. Why? Because when a man dies, what happens to him? His spirit goes to the?


Father, and his soul goes?


Back to the dust, the spiritual dust of the soul -- that the soul was made out of. So there is no sou- -- no one is being raised from the dead that is buried under the ground. Christ is being raised from the dead, and if He is found in you, you will go along for the ride. Did you ever see an ambulance going through all the traffic and someone riding his tail? Well, if Christ is raised from the dead in you, you will go for the ride. You cannot be raised from the dead without Christ being raised from the dead.

Why? Because only -- the only one that can ascend is the one who originally descended. Brethren, you can only be raised from the dead if you died, and it was Christ who died. The soul is either dead or alive depending on the mind which is engraved in her clay. It was the mind that died, and it is the mind that is being raised from the dead.

So we have got a few things wrong here. We have to straighten it out.

So did I answer your question? Anybody else?

I have got one question. You said before about the chain being Christ that takes the carnal mind down to the bottomless pit, and then here it was -- the chain is Satan, the chain of dark- -- chain darkness.

There are chains of darkness, and there are chains which are Christ. Now, remember, spiritual principles apply to anyone who is a spirit. Let me give you a natural example.

I see you are a woman, OK, and Sealy [SP] is a woman. First of all, you are both human beings. I expect you both to have a head. I expect you both to have two eyes, a nose, a mouth and hands, and you are both women. I expect you to have the apparatus to bring forth a child.

Well, if you have two spirits, they are going to have similarities. One may be a spirit of light and the other a spirit of darkness, but they are going to have spi- -- similarities, and they are going to perform similar functions. Spirit is a chain which has the ability to bind up soul, and there are chains of darkness, which is Satan, and there are chains of light, which is Christ, and it is an important principle to remember. Spiritual is spiritual. If Satan is doing it, then Christ must be doing it. If Christ is doing it, Satan might be doing it. Or if he is not doing it, he is doing the best he can to counterfeit it.

Anybody -- I guess this is a question-and-answer night. I am not going to preach that message. I will take any question on any subject. Would you just hit that pause button for a minute please?


Earlier when you were talking about curses in that we have to break the curses in our family line, now, how exactly would you go about that? Is it something that is -- you recognize as sin and confess it and give it over to the Father? Or it is something that you have to do?

Well, it is -- a breaking of a curse is a process. You have to recognize it as sin and confess the sins of your ancestors because a curse that is recognizable is at least -- in my opinion, at least four generations old, probably more than that. So you have to confess the sins of your ancestors and your own contribution to it, and you break it by faith. You pray the prayer over yourself and over your family. You say, “I break you in the name of Jesus,” and then you give it to God. And it is been my experience that curses have to be worked out of your life, and the way I have seen them worked out is that God lets the curse manifest -- let us get a -- let us get a simple example here.

OK, let us say there is a curse of premature death. I know someone who has -- people -- most of the people in the family die in their 40s, before they reach 50, OK, and let us say you are the person that He is break- -- or not you. [UNINTELLIGIBLE] I do not like to talk about people like that.

This person over here is the person who is having this curse worked out of their -- they are sick. They are in their early 40s, and they are sick, and it looks like they are going to die before they hit 50, --


-- and the Lord decides to have mercy on them. He will let them be sick, and then when it comes time to die, He will not let it happen, and from that point where they should have died, they will start getting healthier and healthier and healthier. And that is the breaking of the curse, and that will be passed on to other -- it filters into the other members of the family. I wish I could tell you that it would break on everybody instantly, but it just does not -- it just does not work that way.

And I know that a lot of people disagree with me. I -- but I stand by my opinion. OK. There has to be -- you know, I -- you have a lot of religious spirits in the church, and they tell you, well, you have to believe that it is broken, and I tell them, brother, I will believe that it is broken when it is not manifesting in my life, --


-- you know.


If they are laying a relative of mine in the grave, and I am burying someone every day, just because I said in the name of Jesus it is broken, do not tell me I have no faith. I just buried my third relative. Well, I got to come out of this fantasy.

So it brea- -- in my opinion, it breaks slowly, and the length of time that it takes to break is directly proportionate to the depth of the curse, how severe it is, how wides- -- it is like a cancer -- you know, like a natural cancer.


If it is an old cancer, and it is got all tentacles and vines, you know, the surgery is more severe, and it takes you longer to recover. So it is like -- it is like a spiritual cancer, and it depends also on how old the curse is.


In my opinion, even four generations is nothing. I mean, for curses to be wiping out a family, and the two signs that a family is being wiped -- a severe curse, an old curse is wha- -- is ending in death, OK, and there is heavy destruction on the family -- a lot of infirmity, a lot of premature death and barrenness. And that is the sign that you are -- you got an old curse operating in your family.

So -- and, unfortunately, most people do not seek to have curses broken until they are pretty old because you do not -- the average person does not even realize that anything is wrong. They just think they are having bad luck or s- --


-- or something like that, you know, but when your eyes -- by the time someone’s eyes -- someone on the family line has their eyes open and they see all this tragedy, it is usually a pretty old curse, you know.

But I believe that curses vary in age, and they vary in intensity. The amount of time that it takes to break vary depending -- you see, there is always variables. There is a whole mess of variables. It depends on the person that God has chosen --

You see -- you see, when someone cries out to God to break a family line curse, God has put the thought in your heart. God has looked at this family. God has heard the cries of the weaker members of this family, and He has looked at the whole extended family, and He has made a judgment that sister or brother so-and-so has a potential for great spiritual strength, and I am going to use them to break this curse.

And then usually you have a terrible life -- a lot of hardship, a lot of overcoming, which makes it very strong -- and finally this person who is really called to be a savior to their family comes to C- -- comes to the Lord and cries out to God to break this curse and has to go through all of these experiences of having -- literally having the curse manifest in them to its fullest measure and, by the power of Christ, overcoming every manifestation of the curse, defeating every attempt of Satan to kill and destroy, which up until that point he had legal ground to do. It is literally the exercise of the muscles of Christ over Satan’s ability to effect that curse in your life until you just wipe him out. It is no simple thing to break a curse.

So there is nothing that you as the individual can do except for confessing?

And then you have to fight the war. There is a war to break that curse. You have to -- as the trials come -- as the curse tries to manifest in your life, you would -- I would recommend someone would recogni- -- you know, ask God to help them to recognize --


-- that this is the curse, and you have to get instruction in how to take the victory. You have to learn how to defeat this thing.


You know, it is -- it is just -- because it -- there is no textbook on it, --


-- you know, but it is a war. It is a battle at a time until you win the war, and it is a slow thing. You see, you start out --

[CROSSTALK] [?overcoming?] process.

It is a process. Yeah, an overcoming process. You start out underneath Satan. So the har- -- the beginning is the hardest part. Getting up from that underneath position is -- can be absolutely hell, but in Christ --


-- you can do all things.


Then you stand up, and as soon as you are up on your feet, then you are face to face. You are equal. It gets easier, but once you slap him down, once you start punching -- once you start taking the victory, it gets easier and easier, --


-- but it is an overcoming process. Do not let anyone tell you that --


-- junk, yeah. It gets me mad, you know.


It gets me mad because it is not true. It is not true what they are preaching. It is not true, and then what happens is if you get somebody who is not that strong in Christ, and they believe this junk out there, that the curse was broken, and a year later something happens in their life which is a manifestation of the curse, they -- it damages their faith.


It is wicked, and then they go back to their pastor who broke the curse on them, and they ask him what happened, and he says, “Well, you must be lacking, brother. You have no faith.” And the guy just goes plummeting back out into the world. You cannot do that to people for whom Christ died.


There is heavy consequences for that. I mean, God has been tolerating it because this five-fold ministry that is in the pulpit today, they are not the real thing. They are -- I hear them screaming to the spirit. They are a temporary five-fold ministry, and they are spiritually female, and they do not have -- they just do not have it, so God is winking at it.

But we are going to all either be -- submit to Christ and be converted, or they are going to be taken out of the pulpit, or they will just lose what anointing they have, and it is up to the believers -- you were not supposed to be going for prayer to somebody that has no anointing at all. You are supposed to be looking for the anointing at least.

So some of them, I believe, are just going to go out of the ministry probably through financial poverty, that the Lord will cut off their finances. Some of them will stay in the ministry but have no power, you know, and there will be a few who will enter into the imparted anointing. But once the true message really starts to be sounded, God is -- He is going to remove any vestige of His Spirit from these other ministers because they are killing His -- they are killing His -- the babies. You cannot grow on that kind of food.

When -- oh, let me see. Would it be true or false if somebody from, say, this ministry were to leave and go to another ministry, would destruction come upon them? Would they, like, see -- like, sink to a lower state than they were in?

Well, I assume you mean if God did not tell them to leave?


Yeah. I believe that -- you have to be very careful about that. I would not say destruction would come upon them. It -- in most instances -- and -- well, in every instance that this has happened, I had -- OK, well, this is how God showed it to me.

 I cannot see them prospering spiritually, but they do not die. They do not die. They do not necessarily go into financial ruin. What happens is that they become carnal. You see, I prayed about this for a long time because I know a lot of people will say that about you, if you leave -- if you leave a spiritual ministry and you go backwards.

This is what God has shown me after many years of prayer, that if you -- if God has truly called you to a spiritual ministry, and you do not stay for whatever your carnal reason -- if you do not like pastor or you do not like the meeting format or you do not like the musician or you -- or you do not want to travel to the meetings or whatever your reason is. If God has called you here, and you turn away for your selfish, carnal reason, I have never seen anyone go on with their spiritual development, but I cannot say I see destruction in their life. I see people doing all kinds of li- -- things, pursuing their life, that if you look at them with carnal eyes, they look like they are prospering. They -- you know, but on close examination, their spiritual life has not increased, and they probably backslid, yeah. Yeah.

[INAUDIBLE] You could probably use me as an example because for years you have said that I have been called to this ministry. Now I bear witnesses to that. I mean, I have always bore witnesses to that. I really believe that the reason that I met you was because the Lord had something. In order of the spirit, you are like a spiritual elder to me that I am supposed to come under submission to. Now I have gone in and out, in and out, and I did not -- was not d- -- it is not that I reached total destruction, but I have ceased to grow spiritually. I mean, it is just like -- I mean, Sheila, feel free to use me as an example because, if you were to look at my life, you would say, well, she is doing this, and she is doing this, and I would go to different churches. I would go to, you know, a full gospel Christian place, and I was receiving the Word of God, and I was being uplifted in spirit, and I was, you know, growing in a cer- -- or going in a certain way, but it is like two different worlds, you know, the -- what is happening inside of my spirit. I mean, it is -- the growth, you cannot -- the magnitude of the growth is really what you cannot -- there is no comparison. You know, I do not want to be a judge, but I believe that where God has called you to be is -- you know, is where you need to be. That is probably the most important thing.

But it is a very fine line because some pastors call down destruction on you, total destruction in your life, and I do not -- I have never seen God do that. To be honest with you, I have never seen Him do that to anybody, but I would have to tell you, in all honesty, if the person is truly called here, I do not see them going on spiritually. And you cannot stand still, so pretty much everyone that has ever left of their own will has become more carnal, but they are -- you know, they are alive, and they are healthy, and they are prospering. They are prospering, you know, financially and all that.

            So what would you say if, say, different individuals left or certain individuals left and it seemed like all hell broke loose on their lives?

In their life?


Yeah. Well --

            Would it be because of maybe perhaps a word was spoken over them that this is going to happen, or --

There is a good chance that they have been cursed by people who thought they should not leave. That is an excellent -- you have to pray about it because --


-- you do not want to accuse anyone falsely, but --


-- the [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- I would say you have every reason to think that it is a possibility, that somebody is either pronouncing destruction upon them or trying to pray them back. Now if somebody tries to pray them back and it is not the will of God, it will -- the result of the prayer will be destruction. If this person is binding and loosing and saying, "I command you to not go to any other church but to come back here," and it is not God, it can manifest as a car accident, depending on how much spiritual power that person has resident in their mind.

Now a lot of people that pray these prayers do not even realize what they are doing because the children of light are very ignorant compared to the children of darkness. You cannot try to control somebody's mind. If you do and you have any measure of resident witchcraft power in you, one of two things will happen, depending on the strength or weakness of the person you are praying towards. Either they will obey you and they will do what you are commanding them to do, or there will be spiritual punishment in their life. And the greater the measure of your -- of the witchcraft power that you were born with but you may very well not even know that you have, coupled with the intensity with which you are praying -- if you are praying it three times a day, you know, you can really hurt somebody.

My -- I lear- -- I will tell you how I learned this lesson. I was a very young disciple. I was only in the church about -- not even a year, and this is what I was taught that you were supposed to do to bind and loose. I was working for a man who refused to pay me. I worked overtime for him, and he refused to pay me, and at the time I really needed the money, you know. I was raising my daughter alone, and I really needed the money. I was very offended by what he did. It was not an awful lot of money. I think it was about $27, but I was just really offended by what he did, and I started binding and loosing. I thought I was going to force him to pay me the money, but he did not pay me the money. And one day he walked into the office, and his eyes were wild, and I looked at him. He was utterly frantic, like he was under some kind of tremendous stress, but it did not register in my head. Came in the next day, his arm was in a sling, and his eyes were still wild.


[UNINTELLIGIBLE] it is not funny. The many got hurt, right? Then the next day, he came in, and something else was wrong with him. I r- -- do not remember what, but I started putting two and two together, and I got very upset, you know, because I would never have hurt him, not even for a hund- -- I mean, not for any amount of money. I would not have done that to him. And I went to one of the pastors that I was training under at the time, and I told him I wanted him to give me some information, and his answer to me was, "Well, the guy deserved it. He did not pay. It should happen to him," and I just looked at him, and that was how I learned my lesson, that these psychic prayers -- that this is what a psychic prayer is.

That -- like Paul said, what you sow, the seed that you sow, the fruit that it bears does not look like the seed that you sow, so what we need to understand is the spiritual seed that comes out of our mouth, it does not necessarily manifest in the other person's life in the same way. We sow the seed of words, "I command you to come back to this ministry," and it could result as a car accident, and we need to know that. It is very dangerous praying your will on somebody. Now if you are trying to pray your will on someone's who is a servant of Christ, it is dangerous for you to try and pray your will on somebody, but the church really needs to know this. They do not know it. They do not know what these psychic prayers do. Do you have another question?

            Would not the person praying the psychic prayer, like, for instance, to have somebody come back, would it not fall upon them as well? [?Would the wrath of God not?] fall upon them?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. It is a great mystery, but we can -- human beings are capable of doing great wickedness and not reaping any un- -- discomfort for long periods of time. It is a great mystery, but the retribution of God -- God says, "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord," OK, and God could be very longsuffering in that area. And also, you see, God is in control of everything. He looks at somebody's heart. If you are really dumb, you know -- look, the Bible describes us as sheep. Brethren, we are dumb. Sheep are the dumbest animals, and when -- especially these baby sheep that are getting the wrong teaching on top of being dumb, you know, and God is not going to put you in the hospital because you made a dumb mistake. He is not going to make you lose your job, you know, or break up your marriage because you did something stupid.

And the way the Lord taught it to me was by showing me that we are just children to him, and if your 4-year-old clobbers your 2-year-old, I mean, you are not going to burn him with cigarettes. What do you do? You teach him. You tell him -- you know, you give him a whack, and you say, "Look, you know, you cannot do that. I am not going to let you do that, you know." You teach him. So God's primary objective in letting judgment come back on people is to teach them not to do that.

It took me a lo- [AUDIO CUTS OUT] to get this revelation. God is not in the business of divine punishment. He is not in the business of dropping lightning bolts down on people because He likes to see them fry. He is in the business of teaching His children to love one another as we would like ourselves to be loved. That is what He is in the business of. So -- and no matter how wicked your wickedness is, God looks at your heart. It depends on where you are coming from. And it is been my experience that the Lord does not let really destructive things come upon novices. When God puts down a heavy judgment on somebody, it is somebody that should know better. It is someone that should know better that He has gone to in their dreams, who He has sent prophets to, who He has sent warnings to, and they would not head, and they would not repent. Then, yes, I believe God can bring a death. Yes, I believe can God bring financial disaster. Yes, I believe God could let you get hurt, crippled. I believe it, but only a mature believer who knows what they are doing, who has heard from the Lord and refused to repent. He does not do that to babies. God is very merciful. He is merciful. He is longsuffering. He goes the extra 500 miles. He pleads with us to repent. Even in cases where there has been great wickedness, He will plead with the person for years before something really severe falls on them.

So because we are carnally minded, and I -- you know, I was there myself. I am not completely over it. I still do it. I think great disaster is going to fall on someone, and I keep saying I am not even going to prophesy, and I am not even going to predict anymore what kind of a judgment is going to fall on this person because I am always wrong. I am always too strict, always. Every time I try to anticipate what God is going to do, I am always ashamed when I find out what God really did. I am asha- -- why am I ashamed? Because I realize that it was my carnal brain. You see, God wants to teach us. He wants to convert us, and He is only going to be as severe as necessary. No matter how bad the crime appears to be, if we are in a condition of mind where we are convicted very easily, then He will just convict us. The only time He gives you a stroke is when you will not receive His conviction, but if God looks at your heart and you are truly convicting, there is nothing more to do because what He wants is for you to learn.

You see, under the Old Covenant, it was an eye for an eye, but under the New Covenant, it is not an eye for an eye; it is life for death. You pronounce death; God saves your soul. That witch tried to kill me. God saved him. It is no longer an eye for an eye. He is God, and He loves us, the most wicked of us. He loves us.

            Are we not supposed to bind and loose at all?

Well, I do not bind and loose because I found out that that term is not scriptural, but I guess you are just getting into words. I do not believe that we should do it unless it is the word of the Lord in our heart. I -- the only time I do it is when I know it is the mind of God. I do not do it in my own mind.

            My next dumb question is: How do we pray? What do we pray? [CROSSTALK]

How do you pray? I pray -- I ask the Lord for a prayer. I -- well, you see, where I am -- God has -- I have -- God has evolved a prayer life into my life. I -- the way I pray, I complain to the Lord. I will say, Lord, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] look at this. What do You see? What is Your mind? How do You see this? Let me see it with Your eyes? Let me see it with Your ears, and let Your prayer be in my mind and in my mouth. And I pray for the person. I prayer for their -- for God -- I pray for God's best for them, for their salvation, that He be glorified in them, that He forgive their sins, that He bring them to repentance. I might pray that, and then I drop it, and sometimes it could be a month later. A prayer comes out of the realm of the spirit, and that is it. Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord.

Now I have to tell you that at this point we are all continuously growing, OK, and I am -- He has brought me to a place at this point where I am doing a lot of warfare without that procedure because I did that procedure for a long time. And now when I feel it is His mind in me, a lot of the time I just have His mind, and I am going for it. And to the naked eye, it looks like a lot of what I am doing is what I did years ago that I gave up, all that spiritual warfare that came out of my own carnal mind, that God stripped me of it, and He put me on this training program where I would not pray anything that could possibly harm anybody without His permission.

And now He is taking me full circle, and I have been in a lot of spiritual warfare lately, but it is His mind in me. And I know that when it is His mind praying spiritual warfare that it works for the person's good. It sounds crazy, but I break curses, and I send them back. I execute judgments on people, and they are -- I see them growing in Christ. I see them coming to repentance. I see them turning around and learning lessons. They are not being destroyed when I send their curses back on them because it is Christ in me, and everything that Christ does produces life. If you send somebody's curse -- if you send it back or if you execute a judgment on them and you see disaster come into their life, the chances are real good that it was your carnal mind that prayed the prayer.

            Honestly, I have never believed in executing judgment because who am I?


            Go- -- it is God's choice, not mine.

So what -- in what circumstances do you bind and loose?

            Well, like, I bind and loose over my husband, but I would -- I bind the demon or what I thought was the demon at the time and render it harmless and helpless.

Yeah. Well, you see, the bottom line is motive. Now this is what God taught me. It is a progression. It is a growth of a prayer life. Everything is motive. What is your motive for binding -- you see, when you bind up demons in a person, demons are a part of a person's personality, and when you bind up their demons, you are binding up aspects of their personality. So you have to ask yourself what is your motive. Is your motive to help that person? Is the motive your own safety and comfort? Now I am not asking you to answer me.

            I can answer you, but --

You do not have to answer me.

            My motive is [?harmony?], period. That is all my motive is.


Well, God knows what he would do with that, but I am just giving principles.

            [CROSSTALK] that is what the --


            -- whole motive was.

When the motive is personal gain, OK --

            I guess that is personal gain.

-- personal gain, at some point -- now do not go giving anything up. Just put it before the Lord. When the Lord is ready to mature your prayer life, He is going to bring you out of that because the prayer that never falls to the ground is the prayer that has God's motive at its root.

            Well, it does not work anyway, really. It never has, actually.

Well, then God is not honoring it. God is not honoring it because the only legitimate binding and loosing, if you want to use those words, is over someone -- and this is the -- where I am now, is over someone that God has given you authority over and that you are using it for their good. OK, now you do not have authority over your husband. That means, basically, a child or someone in the ministry, someone in the ministry whom God has given you authority over somebody, and you are doing it to help them.


You are not doing it for your own comfort.

            It is to benefit them only.

It is to benefit them. It is to God's glory because whenever I do that, I see instant results that sometimes my jaw drops open, OK, when it is to save them from themselves, but it has God to be the -- you see, I preach these messages, and fear comes into my heart. I know somebody is going to misunderstand what I am saying, you know, and say Sheila said I could do it. Well, no, you cannot do it. It is got to be God doing it through you, and if you are deceived, well, then God is going to deal with you at some point because if it is not God doing it through you, it is witchcraft, you see. So you have to pray these things through very carefully, and everyone has to have their own walk, you know. I cannot -- unless you would give me a specific circumstance, it would be very hard for me to tell any of you what to do, and these are the general rules. I have been preaching it here for a while. You have to ask God where you are in the evolution of your prayer life. What [UNINTELLIGIBLE] is an evolution of our prayer life.

I used to bind and loose all the time, and then I had a big problem here with 15 girls attacking my daughter, and I bound and I loosed, and I bound and I loosed, and I could not stop it. I had the whole church pray, and I could not stop it, and I was very upset. And then I cried out to God, and I wound up opening to one of the Psalms, and I wound up praying a warfare Psalm, and the whole thing ended. And I said, Lord, explain this to me. I do not understand. You see, my prayer life was evolving, OK. There is more power in Christ than in my ability to bind and loose on anybody. When I am doing something in my own strength, I am limited. Christ is unlimited. But I had been binding and loosing for a long time. He took that event to teach me that He was calling me up into a higher level of prayer, and from there I went through a stage where I could not send back curses. I could not any- -- He would not let me do anything that would hurt anybody. I would not bind and loose. I would not send back curses. I just prayed for people that hated me and that were trying to hurt me and cried out to God when I ne- -- when I was under attack, I would read the warfare Psalms. I would pray the warfare Psalms, and then on rare occasion, when I knew for sure that it was coming down only under the anointing, I would pray -- for years, I only prayed warfare under the anointing, only sent curses back under the anointing.

And about -- I do not know whether it was a year or two ago. I really lose track of time. I was coming under a severe, very severe attacks here, and the Lord spoke to me as I was going to bed, as I was closing my eyes, and He said something. I have it written down somewhere, something to the effect of [AUDIO CUTS OUT] motives to large enough degree and that I could start waging this warfare, and I was a little distressed, you know. God, He whips you around, you know, and when He sent me to work in Manhattan, I did not want to go. I had a fit, and He forced me. Then I decided I liked it, and He sent me back to Long Island. I absolutely, absolutely flipped out. I remember the incident. I was enraged, and then He sent me back to -- He just flips you around. Why? He wants you to do what He tells you to do.

So now I am at the place that I am at now, and I do not want anyone to stumble over this, but I -- after this whole training period that went over years, where people did terrible things to me, I would never spiritually defend myself because that was the Lord's instruction to me. All I would do, I would cry out to Him and pray the Psalms under His instruction. Now I am engaged in a daily, intense spiritual warfare where I believe that it is just Christ in me, and I have -- I am sure that, if it was not, that the Lord would correct me, and I see all kinds of victory, and it is fast, fast responses to my prayers, so fast that my mouth hangs open, victory, not destruction on people, victory in people's lives, victory over their own sins. So that is where I am now, yeah, and I -- you know, and that is always my prayer. I do not care what measure of evil people do.

The prayer that breaks the yoke is I say, God, give them everything You have given me. If You see fit, give them twice as much. You want to give them this ministry? If it is You, they can have it. They cannot have it if it is not You. If it is You, take it. Anything I have that You want them to have, as long as it is You, I would not fight over it. Bless them. I see people turning around everywhere. God wants to save the whole world. He loves everybody, but He will judge sin. He is a righteous God. He is a holy God, you know. So when that is your motive and you see sin in somebody and you give a sharp rebuke or you send back a curse but the true condition of your heart is that you really want to see good happen to them, there is not any judgment that you can execute on someone that will not work for their good, if you understand what I am saying. I hope I made it clear.

God's ultimate goal is salvation, deliverance from trouble and pain -- it is -- and pain and torment. It is not His goal to put trouble in people's lives. If God does put trouble in people's lives, it is only temporary so that their will can be broken and that they will turn into a closer walk with Him. It is only temporary. God's ultimate goal is to give you life, everlasting life, peace, joy, contentment, victory over every sin and evil in this world. That is God -- that is what God wants for you, and if in order to give it to you He has to beat you, He will beat you, but that is His ultimate purpose in your life, joy. Did I answer your question?

You know how God started teaching me this? I used to have a lot of fear, and I was afraid that this country was going to get bombed someday, so I heard that Scripture, you know. "If my people will humble themselves and pray, I will" -- whatever that thing is. I used to pray that prayer six times a day. I was so scared this country was going to get bombed. You see, I was praying for the country, but it was for my own preservation, right. And once, I remember where I was, I walking down the street there, praying that prayer. "Oh, God, humble yourself, America, so we will not get bombed," and the Lord spoke to me. He says, "You better stop praying that prayer," and I said, "What?" He said, "I do not want to hear that prayer out of your mouth again," and at the time I did not understand why, but He scared me, so I stopped praying it. It took about three years, three, four years, and He brought forth in me -- well, first of all, He delivered me from this fear, OK, and r- -- and He brought forth in me a true spirit of compassion for this country, which is in a lot of trouble.

And at that time, I prayed a lot for this country. I have not recently. I pray as the Lord leads me, but I have cried for this country, for what is happening to it, and I know that every prayer that I have prayed has been effective. But when you pray out of Christ for a country that is going down, what happens is that judgment falls, you see. We have a whole church world praying for revival. There is no revival coming to this country. The rod is coming to this country, rebuke; chastisement is coming to this country. Why? Because we knew what was right, and we are doing evil. To know right and to do evil, that is the definition of sin. If you do not know what is right and you do evil, God has great mercy on you, and He will send a revival. But to know what is right and to do evil, God is not sending you any revival. He is sending judgment on you. That is wickedness, to know what is right and to do evil, so that is how I start- -- that is how I first got this revelation. I was praying for this country to be saved so that I could be saved. God will never honor a prayer like that. Are we not funny? We are all funny when we are babies, right? Babies do funny things.

Oh, and, by the way, just to let you know, it happened with that situation with my daughter, when I could not -- those 15 girls were following her around and I bound and I loosed and I could not get them off of her, she had a supernatural deliverance. They had her surrounded in the bowling alley with her back up against the wall. They had a chain, right. They were, like, ar- -- shoulder to shoulder, and one of them just stepped out of the way, and she ran through. One of the girls just broke the chain. Sh- -- and they never bothered her after that, so it was a supernatural deliverance, and girls were getting beat up all up and down here. She was never touched. I never heard of girls fighting like that, really, you know, where I grew up, but there was a lot of girl fights around here. Kids are crazy [?too?]. Any other questions?

            Can you explain what you meant when you said that women should be silent in the church?


            I do not understand.

Yeah, OK. When -- a statement like that is referring to teaching, OK. Teaching comes forth from your mind, OK. What Paul was saying was the people with the female mind should be silent in the church. It has nothing to do with your body. There is no male or female in Christ. It has to do -- spiritual things have to do with your mind. It means the carnal mind should be silent in the church, so if you are in a female body, if you are in a male body, if your mind is carnal, you are not supposed to be talking. What are you supposed to be doing?


You are supposed to be listening, OK, and the person with the male mind is supposed to be talking, and the person with the female mind is supposed to be listening, OK, until the person with the female mind grows up into a male mind. You see, in this physical world, we have male and female babies that are limited. They grow up to what they are. They grow up to be adult men and adult women. And although things are changing radically, there are still some things that women cannot do in this world. We are re- -- the -- we are physically restricted [UNINTELLIGIBLE] to what we are. But, spiritually speaking, everybody ends up being a spiritual male. You go from spiritual child to spiritual woman to spiritual man. Everybody is called to spiritual manhood. It is the will of the Lord that every person that He calls should ultimately have a spiritual male mind and do the deeds of the spiritual male, which are the deeds that Jesus Christ -- Jesus of Nazareth did, who was the Christ. So if -- to say that -- to -- anyone hearing this message or listening here, please do not be upset if you find out that you have a female mind because all that it means is that you have not grown to your full potential yet. That is all that it means. God wants everyone to have a male mind. It is His desire for you, so do not be offended or be insulted. Just tell God that you want to go all the way. You want to keep on going until your mind becomes male. Then you can talk, and people will listen to you.

But the women should not be teaching the man. The carnal mind should not be teaching Christ. It is an abomination to the Lord. It is an abomination on two levels. If you are a man, if you are a spiritual man and you let the carnal mind teach you, first of all, that carnal mind is not going to learn anything. They are going to stay in their darkness. But even more than that, if you are a spiritual man and you give over your authority, God does not like that. He will judge you more than He will judge the carnal mind. Someone that turns over a God-given authority will have heavier judgment fall upon them than some person who does not know any better that is trying to take authority over the authority.

See, God is very merciful towards ignorance. It is when you know better, He is all over you. I make a mistake; I am corrected immediately. You see, it is -- everything is your relationship to Christ. The more mature you are and the more you know, the more quickly He corrects you when you make a mistake. When you are a baby, you can go for long periods of time before He corrects you. Why? Because you need so much correction, He would break your heart if He corrected you with everything. That is the truth. If you have a 2-year-old and they are knocking everything off the table, do you beat them because they touch the jar on the -- no, you take the thing off the table, right? Well, the more mature you are in Christ, the quicker you get corrected. I get corrected immediately. It does not even go 24 hours, imme- -- an hour. I cannot get away with anything, not that I would want to.

[?And so?] a lot of people that do not understand, they say, "Well, who is over you?" You would not want over you who is over me. He is very strict. OK.

            Is that also -- does that relate to the Scripture in the Old Testament where it says that the women should not wear the apparel of the men and the men should not wear the apparel of the women?

Well, in my opinion, that is speaking about transvestitism. That is speaking about a man who is dressing as a woman because he is getting some perverse thrill out of it or because he is deceitfully trying to attract another man. See, in this society, we have women wearing men's clothes. We wear pants. I have even seen women wear jackets and ties. I do not particularly like it, but with God, everything is motive. If you are dressing that way because it is the style, I do not have any problem with it, but if your motive for putting on the clothes of the opposite sex is a sexual perversion in your own heart or a sexual perversion that is trying to deceitfully attract a member of the opposite sex, then there is judgment on that. Did I make that clear? Yeah. Because, you know, in our society, men do not wear skirts, but in Scotland men wear skirts.


And in Bible -- where?


It is their custom. That is what they wear. And in Bible days, men wore dresses. It is a cultural thing.

            OK. But is that -- when they talk about the apparel, is it talking about the natural apparel, or is it talking about spiritual clothing?

Oh, I see what you are saying. To be honest with you, I never thought of that. Although, it is an interesting question. Is what you are saying that a woman should not present herself as a -- a spiritual woman should not present herself as a spiritual male?


Is that what you are saying?


Well, I would say so. That goes along with what we were just saying.


And I tell everybody you have to know who you are. Get before God; find out who you are. Yeah?

            Getting back to the authority, I have difficulty with the natural plane and the spiritual plane. Like, we have to be in submission to our husbands, but on the natural plain, say, if he is cooking something the wrong way, I mean, you can speak up and say this is how it is supposed to be done because you have the understanding where he does not. I do not know how to voice it or how to put the exact words, but you can disagree with natural areas, and it has noth- -- you are not affecting his spiritual authority. Am I right?                     

Well, if he wants to cook it that way, you know, I would not say anything. Yeah, unless he is poisoning your kids, you know.


            Let us say a pastor you have over you, and you see him out in the driveway or something really kicking a dog. Would it be wrong to say that --

Well, the fact that --

            -- what is the matter?

-- this man is -- well, that would -- is kicking a dog, you see, it is really important that our minds become trained to deal with one issue at a time. The fact that this man is kicking a dog is one issue, and whether or not you have the right to correct him is another issue. The fact that he is committing a sin does not mean that you have the right to correct him. See, two different issues.

            It would not be righteousness to protect the dog?


            See, I am having difficulty with righteousness. That is what I am really saying, I guess.

Yeah, I --

            [CROSSTALK] righteousness.

If it was me and I saw someone -- I saw my pastor kicking a dog, no, all I would do -- I would pray because I would have no authority over that person to tell them to stop kicking the dog, OK. Now if I saw him mugging somebody and knocking someone down, I would probably call the police, OK. Now the police have authority over -- that is a criminal act, OK. Maybe even the SPCA would have an -- have some authority over that man kicking the dog, but I do not think I have any authority to go up to him and tell him he should not be doing that.

            [?So you?] have to go to the [?right?] authority.

You have to go to the correct authority because, see, as I said before, the fact that he is doing something wrong --         



            -- save the dog.

Yes. Well, the damage is already done, but the question is, is it your place to be that restraining force? And if it is not your place to be that restraining force, you are moving in jezebel or witchcraft.


        Now to me that was just being an outright coward, that you did not even resist evil. In other words, you are a plain coward, and, to me, I would feel it as sin that here [?I saw some?] woman was hurting her child, and she was completely out of control, if I did not do something, I would feel I am a coward and that I was not resisting evil.

Well, first of all, I do not believe that is what that Scripture means, resist not evil. The Scripture is resist not evil. That is the Scripture. There are certain manifestations of evil that it is not for you to resist, OK, and there is such a thing as an ungodly burden. There is such a thing as an ungodly burden where you take on a responsibility to defend people, and it is not your place to do it, and you are violating that person. So God is going to have to show you [?and?] situation by situation, and sometimes, you know, there could be something ungodly going on, and there could be two or three people st- -- well, I do not want to get into this because I really have to have individual situations, but I do know that all of us have to have a revelation of who we are in relationship to everybody that is involved. Then, again, of course, it reaches a line where it goes over the line, you know, where you do jump in, but God has to show you the lines. I cannot give you any general principles, except that you should pray. Yeah?

            My only point is, what if you do pray and God instructs you to do something? Then it is OK?

Well, if God instructs you to do it, then you overshadow --

            I am talking about the same situation that Mary is --


            -- talking about.

If it is truly God, then his command overshadows every natural command.

            But so, really, in any situation, you should really just pray to the Lord and go from there --

You should pray anyway, yeah.

            -- basically?

Right. Yeah, but some people need in- -- need experience or instruction in understanding where they should intervene and hearing from the Lord in that circumstance. You happen to hear from the Lord. Everyone does not hear from the Lord as clearly as you do, OK.

            [?But, see, I?] --

But just -- I am -- this is -- I am not [CROSSTALK]

            Without you, I would never know what He was telling me. You know what I am saying? So there we go.

Now, Tracy, you move in the spirit, Tracy. We are just talking about -- we are talking about general situations where someone is distressed by what they see happening --


-- and I think Mary's question is, you know, at what point can she intervene, and at what point does it become sin? I believe that is what Mary is asking, and we would have to take it a situation at a time. Any time you want to talk to me about a specific situation that is really happening, I will be glad to give you -- or has really happened, I will be glad to give you my opinion on it, but I cannot give you any general statements because I know that God wants to show you something in that area, so it would have to be a specific circumstance. You call me up, and we will talk about it, OK? OK. Now as far as your husband cooking in the kitchen, it is his kitchen too. It is his pots too, and it is his food, and he can cook anything he wants.                     

            That is the truth.

Now, listen. You just crossed over the issue. You just crossed over -- there is two different issues. Can he cook something that you hate? Is that OK? OK, or can he leave you his dishes? They are two totally different issues, two totally different issues.

            In our house, it is not an issue. He cooks, and I clean. There [?are few times he does?] cook.

OK. Anybody else?

            In one of your messages, "Saved: Who, What and How?" you say -- you had stated   there is only one living soul, and it is likened to a house plant that has one root and many leaves, and that Jesus is the first leaf that made it to another realm, or heaven. And my question is, from my understanding, what about Enoch? The Scripture says that he walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. Did he not cross over to the other side to heaven? And what about Elijah when it says he was caught up to heaven in a chariot?

Yeah, OK. Jesus Christ -- Jesus of Nazareth, who was Christ, is the only man who was ever glorified. He is the -- and heaven, that experience of being completely spiritualized, He is the on- -- Jesus is the only one who has attained to that. If you look at that statement, Enoch walked with God, and Enoch was not, I looked at it in the Hebrew, and I am of the opinion that what it means is that Enoch had a very close relationship with Christ, and he walked so much in that relationship with Christ, which was a spiritual relationship, that the carnal person, Enoch, ceased to be, and he became Christ. He became a manifestation of Christ in the Earth, but he was never glorified. You see what I am saying? So for his lifetime, he was Christ, and when it -- but he died. See, a lot of people read that Scripture, and they draw the conclusion that Enoch did not die. You see, this drawing of conclusions is the most dangerous thing that the believers come up at. We -- and I still do it sometimes. It is dangerous because God talks to you, and your carnal mind tells you what He means, OK. The Scripture never said that Enoch did not die, OK.

And as far as Elijah is concerned, the same situation. There is n- -- these men were not glorified. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. He is the only one that is spiritually mature enough to have life without a fallen body, OK. When He was glorified, that was what happened to Him. He was converted into another form whereby He is alive without a fallen body. It never happened to Elijah, OK. And we are told that Elijah was taken up into heaven. I do not really know what that means. It could mean that he was caught up to a higher realm, spiritually. I do not know what it means, to tell you the truth, but I know that he was not glorified. That much I know; he was not glorified. Yeah, OK. And also I feel led to say that we know that God took Moses, and no one ever found his body, so we do not know. It could mean that this -- that when Elijah went up, OK, that God took his spirit up into heaven. You know, maybe his body died, but his spirit went back to Chri- -- I am not sure. It could mean any of these things, but I know that the man was not glorified.

It could be that his body -- not his body. I am getting tired. It could mean that his spiritual person was separated, OK, without first the death of the body. Here, let me explain that. I did not make that clear. What happens when a fallen body dies, when the man dies, OK, the body -- the soul dies; the body dies, and the spirit, which is dead in that man, goes back to the Father because every man that is not raised from the dead, his sprit is dead. OK. The soul dies; the body dies; the spirit goes back to the Father. In the case of Elijah, he was alive because Christ was living through him, so a possibility of what this means is that the Lord said, "It is time for you to die, Elijah, but your spirit is not coming back to the Father because your body dies. It is not an involuntary act that your spirit is going back to your Father because your body dies. I am calling you back. I am taking your spirit back unto me, and, therefore, your body is going to die." You hear what I am saying?

It is the same principle as Jesus on the cross. When the Scripture -- the Scripture that says, "And He gave up the ghost," yeah, if you look that up in the Greek, what -- it is a different Greek word, OK. It is not that His breath went out of Him.

05/20/15 Transcribed by VerbalFusion

05/22/15 1st Edit CAS/BP

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Pastor Vitale's Bio

Sheila R. Vitale is the founding teacher and pastor of Living Epistles Ministries and Christ-Centered Kabbalah. In that capacity, she expounds upon the Torah (Scripture) and teaches Scripture through a unique Judeo-Christian lens.

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