244 - 1 Part

The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
 The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.



I have got to tell you about that one.






OK, this question is about -- a remark was made about dealing with homosexuality. If a person who is already -- had already died and they were homosexual, now, if they did not carry out their life, you know, with the homosexuality, that their offspring will carry it out for them and their -- like their first and third genera- -- if it does not hit the child itself, it will hit the -- I want to say, the third generation?


Are you speaking about someone -- a practicing homosexual who has also fathered a child? You are speaking about a male homosexual --


            A male homosexual. 


-- who has also fathered a child?


            Who fathered a child.




            But he was saved.


OK. So he fathered a --


He was already saved and got delivered and started walking in, you know, Christ and --


And he bor- -- the child was born after his salvation experience?








So you are asking me, if -- I'd like to feed back [sic] to make sure I understand your question.




So are you asking me whether or not the curse that produced the homosexual behavior would still be manifested in the future generations?




OK. That is a very good question. And I cannot -- the answer is yes and no. So let me explain it to you. The only circumstances -- well, let me just get my thoughts together. Look, there is a big misunderstanding in the church. You hear me saying that on almost every message. There is a big misunderstanding in the church. When you have your salvation experience, that does not cleanse you from all sin. What happens to you when you have a salvation experience is that the Lord Jesus Christ enters into a relationship, with you and, to be honest with you, the word "saved" is inaccurate because what has happened to you is that you have been reconciled unto God. OK, and salvation does not come until the end of your faith; the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul, the end of the whole procedure which begins when you say, Lord Jesus Christ, be my savior. OK, so you are really not saved; you are reconciled unto God.




OK. You are also redeemed because the Lord Jesus Christ bough- -- has purchased back the whole creation by His sacrifice on the cross, but you are not saved, OK, until the end of the process. OK.




So when the Lord Jesus Christ comes into your life and you enter into a reconciliation or a renewed relationship with Him that was broken off at the time of the fall, OK, He begins to -- He begins a process which will cleanse you from all of your sins. And this cleansing of sin, it is not just words. The forgiveness of sins, it is not just words. I could say to you, I forgive your sins, [?Ronda?Rhonda?]. Well, what does that mean? OK. The forgiveness of sins is a spiritual event, you see. When the Lord Jesus Christ says that He forgives your sins, it does not mean that He forgives you and you can stay in the same condition that generated your sin. The adulterous woman, for example, He said to her, go, and sin no more. Now, that was not just an admonition to someone who may go and sin no more or may not go and sin anymore. When He said that to her, He knew that He had imparted to her the ability to sin no more, and because He had purged her of her potential for adultery, not just of the [?act?] but of the spiritual potential for adultery, because He knew that it was gone, He said, there is no reason for you to die. Why should I kill you? You will not be doing that anymore.




OK, --




-- so what we are waiting for in this hour is the purging or the putting away of our sin, and it is a big, big gigantic error for anyone to believe that all you have to do is say, Jesus, be my savior and you are purged from your sin because you are not because the church is just as filthy as the world and in some instances more filthy than the world. We are filthy with sin, and that is why there is no power in the church because power, which is associated with the spirit of God, is also associated with righteousness. And the church is weak and sick and dying because we are filthy, OK, and a large part of the reason that we are filthy is the judgment of our sin has not begun, OK? If you are not following me, just stop me.


What has happened is that the Holy Spirit has come into our life, and it can be likened to a courtship with a young man bringing the young woman flowers and candy and jewelry -- and everything is wonderful -- and honey and roses, but when you get married, the war starts, right?




Right. OK, right, right.


Oh, OK. So that is the Holy Spirit; He is bringing gifts; He is typified by Isaac's servant. Was it Isaac's servant -- or was it Abraham's servant when he went out? Abraham's servant. When Abraham sent him out --




-- to get a bride for Isaac. He went with gifts, and the Holy Spirit in this hour is wooing the church. OK, but the forgiveness of sins is not in the Holy Spirit. The forgiveness of sins is in Christ, and Christ is different from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the word of God. We are told He is the seed of God. The word of God is the seed. Amen. He is not Christ. He is the seed, which can be likened to the male seed, to male sperm. And He comes into individual human beings, and He comes to join with that which is within us, which is spirit, and our natural example is human conception. That is our natural example. Thank you very much.


OK, we are female; the church is the bride of Christ.




The bridegroom is Christ.




OK? So the Holy Spirit is the seed that is being sowed on the hearts of men. We must conceive because we shall be saved in childbearing. Our salvation is in childbearing. We must bear the Christ child, OK?


And there is another scripture which is not quite as clear, but I will give it to you so you can pray about it. In John 8, we are told the servant does not abide in the house forever. The servant is the natural man who has a relationship with God but in whom Christ is not being formed. OK?




He does not abide in the house forever. The house, this body; it dies. But the Son, He abides in the house forever. When Christ is formed in you, when you bear that Christ child, when you bear that man-child of Revelation 12, this house will abide forever.


So our true salvation, which we cannot have unless sin is purged out of us, is the result of the Son living inside of us, and that is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can be likened to -- through union with the Son, through marriage with the Son, OK?


So, to answer your question, the answer is unless the man who practi- -- was a practicing homosexual, unless his sins have been so purged out of his soul, and this does not happen overnight, OK, i- -- unless these sins are so completely purged out of his soul -- I get so many thoughts I start to trip over my words. Let me finish this thought first. Until that has -- unless that has occurred before his child is conceived, those sins will be passed on to his child.


OK, sin is a spiritual reality. It is not just an idea. It is not an intellectual concept. It is a reality. It has spiritual substance to it. Just like our soul, we cannot see it; I look at you; I see your body; I cannot see your soul, but your soul has -- it is your spiritual reality. It has spiritual substance. Sin has spiritual substance. And there is a scripture that says your own sin shall correct you, or I believe there is one that says, "And your sins shall be in the midst of you," or something like -- something like that --


Will find you out --


Will find you out --


[?-- sooner or later.?]


-- but my whole point here is that sin has spiritual substance, and it is -- it grows inside of you; it is a birth. We find James speaking about it. There is a literal birth.


To perform a sin like homosexuality, we must first commit adultery or commit that sin within ourselves. All sin is in the mind. Jesus said, if you look at that woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery, so sin is in the mind. So before a man can practice homosexuality, that sin is in his mind, and sin is likened to a human relationship between a man and a woman. There is an interaction between our spiritual being -- I call it the human spirit, OK, and Satan, and there is a birth. Sin is born. All right? And when that chi- -- when that offspring of the sin -- when the fruit of the sin is produced, it abides in our heart, and that is what has to be ripped out. The fruit of sin is called iniquity; the offspring of sin is iniquity. Paul speaks about it in the Book of Romans, an iniquity unto iniquity. We keep sinning with our own carnal mind, with our own wicked heart, and we keep producing more and more fruit. Iniquity unto iniquity, and iniquity is spiritual substance that has to be ripped out of us, and the only one that can rip it out at its root is the Lord Jesus Christ.


We find some workers of witchcraft succeed in ripping out this fruit; some people call it demons; you can call it anything you want; I never get into semantics; some people get very upset with the words that I use; it is just words, but the spiritual principle that I am imparting to you is true. I will never argue with you over words, whatever you want to call it.


OK. Some workers of witchcraft have a regular practice of ripping these -- I will call them demons -- out of people, but they do not have the authority to rip the roots out. That means you can -- the demon can come back, OK?






-- produce --


That you can do it again. You can get more, OK, because the bottom line is that what is producing the sin is your sinful spiritual behavior, which is in your mind in your heart, and unless Christ is present, after that root is ripped out, unless Christ is there, to bring forth righteousness in that area, you are wide open, so you just do -- you are very likely to just do it again, more likely than not, to do it again.


So when witchcraft -- when witches or practitioners of witchcraft deliver someone of a demon, it is only temporary because Christ is not there to make all things well. OK, so you get temporary relief, but when Jesus does it for you, and you are really serious about walking in God, He moves right in and fills up that void, and then your sins are remembered no more. See, it is a reality for people to believe that Jesus just forgets about your sin. No way, God hates sin; He hates it, and He will hate it until He gets it out of you. He does not hate you, but He will never tolerate that sin, remaining in you especially if you are called, so the true forgiveness of sins includes the purging of those sins. You cannot walk around with all your filth and say, I am forgiven, which a lot Christians do, because you are not forgiven, because how do I know you are not forgiven? You are still doing the same thing. When God forgives you, He gives you the ability to stop doing it.


So, I am sorry I am so long winded, but to get back to your question, if this man was so completely purged before the child was conceived, the curse would not go on the family line, but such a purging to the best of my knowledge, with the measure of the power that is in the church today, takes years. It is not just one demon. Some preachers will tell you it is just one demon of homosexuality, but it is not true. There are family-line curses involved, and there is a whole personality profile underlying this behavior, a whole personality profile, and we just do not get purged that easily.


OK, I know people who were very repentant and totally working with God, and it took them with -- I mean, really working with God, having demons cast out of them four nights a week, five nights a week, and it took five to seven years. OK. Now, some people -- everybody is different. Some people have a lot of problem confessing their sins. I am talking about people who, by the grace of God, had no problem confessing their sins and repenting, and it took five to seven years of intense ministry, sometimes every day. Now, not many people can bear it. It is not easy having your heart exposed. It is painful.


OK. So, you know, it depen- -- I guess the answer to your question is it depends on the individual. It depends, number one, if God is willing to do this for them because in this hour, He is not doing it for everybody; He is just not, OK, so anyone hearing this message, if they want it, what do you do? You tell God that you heard this message, and you like it; maybe He will do it for you, and maybe He will not -- I am telling you the truth; He is not doing it for everybody in this day. God is no respecter of persons, but He has a plan, and His plan is to save all of humanity. And right now, the primary thrust of the move of God is to raise up a group of believers with spiritual power, great enough to break the curses and set all of humanity free.


Now, He blesses people along the way, people that bang on His door until they weary Him. OK, I do not know what He is going to do for any individual, I do not know, but I know, by and large, the people that He is setting free today are the people called to ministry. That is what I see, OK. And -- but definitely -- I tell you without a question of a doubt, He is not setting everybody free in this hour. That is further down the road.


OK, so, if you have somebody in mind, OK -- first of all, He has to ask God if He is willing to give him this deep a cleansing, so deep a cleansing that it will not pass on to His children. If God says yes, the cleansing depends on how easily He can confess His sins and repent. And as I said, with the most cooperation with God, with the measure of power I see available today, not less than five years. OK?


So, now, well, let me -- do not let me discourage you. Let me --




-- say something else. OK, let me say something else. Now, if the man has begotten a child before he had such a purging, and he is truly walking with the Lord. It is not just lip service, but He is truly serving God, there will be an influence on the child. I believe that -- well, I have to give you two prongs on that also. This God is not simple, OK. Depending again on how young the child was, when the -- [?of?] the child was conceived after he was saved, you said, did you say that? The child was --




-- conceived, yeah, he was saved. It could go either way depending on how severe the curses are, it -- the -- his continuous [?travailing?] prayer might stay the curse from physically manifesting, OK, so the child -- he might -- well, first of all, let me say this, it does not have to fall on every offspring. We -- a per- -- a highly cursed person can have five children, and the curse could fall heavily on only one child. You do not usually see a family with five children and five homosexuals, does not usually happen like that. OK.


So, first of all, the chi- -- the curse may not be transferred to that child, OK? Then, you never know the measure to which the power of God is going to start counteracting what is already in the child. We just do not know. I know one person who came to the Lord when their child was 6 years old, and they were purged of a very s- -- you know, severe spiritual problem, and they cried for that child every day. And the child is in their 20s right now manifesting everything, every wickedness that the person was delivered from, and I believe that God will deal with that child, but the problem is the child is suffering, and she is going through every suffering that the mother went through, and the mother had hoped that since she came to the Lord when the child was 6 years old, that the child would be spared, but all that wickedness was very firmly rooted in the child, and that means that that child will have to repent for herself. I believe all the prayers of the parents will turn the Lord's face towards the child. He will pursue her. He will seek her. He will draw her. Yeah. But she has got to go through it. If what you are asking me is will the child be spared from the judgment that is associated with the sin, and not -- c- -- not completely, unless that man was purged before the conception, and if he was not, then it depends on how severe the curses were and which way God is going to work with that child, yeah. There is no set answer.


Now, for somebody to speak that it is going to fall on that child or the third generation or that they are going to carry out the sin of their father and is really directed towards a person, a pes- -- a specific person, is that cursing that person? Is that --


You mean to say to someone I see the sin in your life, and that sin can manifest in the second and third generation? Are you cursing the person? Is that what you asked me?


No, when they [?sent?set?] it away [?over?] -- across the pulpit, when they [?sent?set?] [?over?] -- when it is [?set?sent?] across the pulpit in such a way where --


I am trying to bring it out myself. [?I cannot remember.?] In other words, it [?is said?said?] I am watching your son to see how he is growing, and you have to keep praying because I see the -- his fa- -- you are -- I am trying to forget what [INAUDIBLE] --




            [?That sentence is?]?




You see [CROSSTALK]  


            -- to watch his ways that he does not fall in the same lifestyle --




            -- as his father or --




[INAUDIBLE] check for AIDS and, you know, is that implanting things in your head to cause you to fear?


Yeah, I hear what you are saying.




See, this is very subtle because it depends on the spirit which is saying it. OK? Two people can say the same thing. And with one person it could be cursing in sin, and the other person it could be the spirit of God warning you, so you have to try the spirit; you would have to try the spirit.




Off hand, I do not like the sound of it, but you would really have to draw --


            [INAUDIBLE] would cause fear [CROSSTALK]


God never causes fear, no.


How about if the child really was not manifesting any of that behavior, but it was just being implanted --


Oh, no.




No. I do not like the sound of that at all.


[CROSSTALK] even as to watch- -- watch who your children hang out with, the men your children hang around with, to watch who your chil- -- who the male- -- the males your children -- your child hangs around with because, you know, they might be homosexual or that way.


Yeah. You see, I do not like the sound of it, but I have to tell you, it is my responsibility to tell you, --




-- that the bottom line is that you must try the spirit, OK. I was not there. I -- if I was there, I would try the spirit, but I was not there, but the way it is being presented to me, I think it is very suspicious. OK? And fear is never of God. Fear is never of God.




And I do not like the sound of it.




Especially if the child is giving no sign --




-- of those tendencies at all.


            It is like people try to speak things on him.




Like, oh, he acts like a punk. He whines a lot. He is a sissy, you know, which he is none of the above, --




-- which he is all boy, and he is just a 5-year-old boy; he just turned 5, so, that is -- you know, that is his age bracket; that is the way --




            -- he is supposed to act, --




            -- you know?


No, I would not like that at all --


            Yeah. And even to indicate --


I would not accept that at all.


            -- that a married man might be that way, you know?


Oh, no. No. No, that -- no.








No, I would definitely be breaking cur- -- I would be coming against that, you know? When I say break curses, you know, curses are not so much the words you speak as the spirit that is speaking them. OK? So, i- -- the breaking of a curse is based -- what it really is, is not receiving that person's thought because if that is a wicked spirit in someone's mind that is really thinking evil towards a person, I c- -- every -- you can use whatever words you want. I say I break that curse, but the bottom line is your mind must push it back.


This warfare that is coming, OK, the church calls it Armageddon, but it is the battle of the minds. It is mind warfare, OK? I still -- where I am spiritually, I still find it necessary to say the words, I break the curse, but what I am really saying is, my mind p- -- is pushing back your thought. I will not receive your thought. I believe as we develop spiritually, eventually it will not be necessary to say the words. But you say whatever you need to say, if you need to say it, so that that thought does not get in your mind --




-- because when that thought gets in your mind, it becomes a spiritual -- or you are in danger of a spiritual seduction, OK, and if your mind falls into agreement with it, OK, then the sin becomes yours.


You see, the thoughts in our mind are not sin. OK, it is when we agree with those thoughts, it becomes a spiritual adultery, and adultery is sin, you see, so -- and this is a very important fact, that a lot of people do not understand. People have come to me in torment, saying, all of these sinful thoughts in my mind, I thought that, you know, I was free of that, and these thoughts will not stop coming, but they are not sin unless you agree with them, unless you yield to them. So Paul said, bring every thought into captivity; bring every high imagination down. The thoughts do not stop coming. Remember, Satan tempted Jesus. Jesus heard the sinful words of Satan, and we are certainly not where He was at the time of the temptation, so surely, we shall hear thoughts of sin in our own mind, and that is where the warfare is. Do not let it in. Do not agree with it. The minute you agree with it, it is sin unto you. Now, there will be some thoughts that we will not be strong enough to fight off, so there is never any condemnation in Christ Jesus, but we need to know what to do. If you cut your arm and you are bleeding, you know what you are supposed to do. OK. So we need to know, if we are attacked, if a thought invades our mind that has ground in us, what does that mean? That we have the potential for the same thought. OK? And it gets in there and links up with our potential for it, and we recognize that we have agreed with it; immediately confess it as sin. Confession is a powerful weapon, very powerful weapon. Sometimes we are not able to repent, but we can confess it as sin. There is -- I used to think those two went together, confession and repentance, and I found out that they do not necessarily go together. Some people can confess a sin, and they do not repent until a year later. So confession is a powerful weapon, and the Lord taught me this just last year. I have had thoughts invade my mind that have found place in me, and my soul has fornicated, and I just go before the Lord, and I say, Father, I did everything I could do, and I was overtaken. OK, please forgive me, and bring forth a deliverance, and that is all I could do. I said, bring me to repentance. I am telling you, Lord, I am not repenting, but I know -- but I read your book; I know that it is sin; I know it, but I could not stop the thought in my mind; I agreed with it, and the truth is I am honestly not repenting, and the Lord, He brings it forth; He brings the repentance, and He brings the deliverance.


So, the Pharisee in all of us -- we all have a Pharisee in us, and the Pharisee in all of us wants to push the sin down and say, oh, no, no, it is not true; it is not true, but that will really get you in trouble. Confession opens you to the ministry of God and eventual deliverance.




So, what the Lord is asking us to do is contrary to our nature. Our nature wants to hide our sins,




-- do not want anybody to know, do not -- we do not want our own conscious mind to know. We are in denial. But God is challenging us to do something against our nature. Now, you do not have to confess it to the whole world; the man that trained me used to say, now, do not go and tell the church gossip, you know?


            [?That's really?] [INAUDIBLE]


You know? Yeah, tell somebody -- tell God -- you do not always have to tell other people. Sometimes it is necessary, but you do not ha- -- always have to. If it is necessary to tell another person, tell someone that you trust, that you know is not going to repeat this, but that is going to pray for you and help you because the Scripture does say confess your sins one to another, you know?


But the hardest part is facing yourself.


Yes, very hard. Yes, yes. Most human beings are in denial. Yeah.


I was just saying the hard part is facing yourself. Once you face yourself, then everything else becomes easy because you have faced the hardest task [UNINTELLIGIBLE]




So once you can face yourself and identify whatever that sin is, then you can begin to deal with it.




            And, like I say, everything else is minimal --




            -- after that.


Right, right. And that is the bottom line of the work of the Lord in the church today. He wants us to start looking inward because it is time for that purging of that sin that I was speaking about earlier, and as those sins are purged, the Lord replaces them with righteousness, and in that righteousness is spiritual power in Christ.


And I want to tell you I am just more excited than I have ever been in any time with the Lord -- I am ready to go up, I want to tell you. I am not satisfied; I want more. [?No --?Now,?] it is promised to us; it is our inheritance. I want it in righteousness. I want to do good with it. I want to do the work of the Lord, and I really want it.


            That is [?good?].


We did a word-by-word study of the temp- -- the count of the temptation, and we found out that when Jesus -- when the Scripture says He -- Jesus fasted 40 days and 40 nights, and then He hungered; He was not hungry for food. Was not hungry for food.




Yeah. He had fasted from His soulish pleasures, OK? He was a eunich; He was not married, whatever else He had given up, you know, of the soul life, and He had paid the price, and He was hungry for spiritual power in Christ.




Yeah. That is how I feel today.




I am hungry for it. Praise God.


So did I answer your question?






My question is, would a whole body or a whole church body be able to overcome at the same time, become like Christ, become that mature Christ, be formed at the same time?


I cannot honestly tell you that I know, but my opinion is I would doubt it. I would doubt it. The example that I give is a tomato plant. You come out one morning, and you have just a couple of tomatoes on your plant, and they are all green. Some are small. Some are big. You come out the next week, and one of them is red. I -- I am walking in the opinion right now that full stature will happen in a similar manner to those who receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, one at a time. And as far as a whole congregation is concerned, also again this is just my opinion, I could be wrong. What I see God doing in this hour is I see Him taking a church out of a church, there is always a few; it is a few -- a few from here, one from there, a few from there. That is how I see it. That in this hour He is calling together an elite group. Now -- excuse me, now you have to listen to this, with spiritual ears. God is not a respecter of persons. There is no glory. There is nothing for the person to glory in. There is no glory to the people who are being called because the Scripture clearly states very few intelligent, very few rich, very few with worldly wisdom, but He is picking the weak things of this world to show His glory that, look at what He is going to do with this weak thing of the world, OK? So anyone that is teaching along these lines, that is telling you that they were picked because they are so great, get out of their church. Get out of their church. Run; run. OK, because as God calls you -- 




Why -- someone is telling you that?




Did I just give you an instruction that I did not realize I was giving you?


            Oh, [?Jesus.?]


Well, better ask the Lord before you leave. He may have work for you to do [?there?that?] -- I mean, the average person, I counsel you to get out, but if you are called to be a prophet, the Lord may want you to stay, so, yeah, always pray before you [UNINTELLIGIBLE].


OK. OK. Sin -- you know, human qualities shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God. In order to enter into the kingdom of God, our humanity must be crushed out of us. This is described in the Scripture by the parable of the wine press in Revelation Chapter 14, I believe it is. OK. All of those qualities that were told, I believe it is in Revelation 20, will not enter into the kingdom, homosexuality, murders, that all of those qualities are inherent in the Adamic man, in the fallen Adamic man. We are all of those things. And we are also -- spiritually we are all homosexual. We are all murderers. We are all of those things. This creation is a perversion. These bodies are a perversion. This is not the creation of God. This body is a jailhouse. It is an instrument of torture to thousands, if not millions of people. Walk through the hospitals. I went to visit someone in the hospital not too long ago with my spiritual eyes. I was on an elevator, and the door opened, and there were these elderly people all sitting in wheelchairs lined up with apathetic, depressed faces like zombies, and the doors closed, and I said, my God, that is horrible. That is not even a decent existence. These bodies are torture instruments. This is not the glory of God. This body is the image of Satan.


OK, I do not want to get off on too many tangents here, but to get back to your question, the flesh and blood and any of the qualities associated with it -- pride, which is the number one -- the number one characteristic of the fallen man is pride. OK? Shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Nobody is going in with pride. I tell you right now, I do not care what they have done for the kingdom. I do not care about how many demons they have cast out. I do not care how many sick they have healed. I do not care about how much money they have given. I do not care if they did somersaults in church. They are not getting into the kingdom [?with that?] pride. OK? And that -- I tell you the truth.


Would a whole body -- church body ever get to a place where they are in such [?one accord?], such in tune with one another that they would rise up out of bed and be thinking the same thing?


A whole church body with no exceptions? I would be surprised because, again, I look at my congregation, we are a small group, but everybody is at their own level of maturity just like that tomato plant. Nobody -- I -- to the best of my knowledge, you are not -- any two people in our group are on exactly the same level. OK? And also, let me put -- the Lord just told me to say this, that we do have people -- excuse me, who tune in to [?Christ as He is?] amongst the rest of us but never in the same way, never in the same way. You see, we have a -- just to give you an example, there was something going on that I had not shared with anyone besides the two people that were involved, and a third member of our group came in and told me she had a dream, and as soon as I heard the dream, I knew that God was telling her what was going on here, except she could not interpret the dream, so it did not do her any good. OK, but to think that a whole congregation would have the same revelation in the same exact way, I would be very surprised if that was God.


            Even -- what about even if, say, three people?


In the same way?


            Would wake up --


The same exact dream?


            -- in the same -- would wake up having the same thoughts?


Having the same thoughts. Well, I have never heard of it, you know, so I -- and all of us, we have to be aware as we get into this realm of the questions that you are in now, there really is not -- I cannot tell you I have the answer. All I can tell you is based on my experience, and I have been moving in spiritual things for years. I have never -- well, no, that is not true. But even so, even so, no, this -- it would come forth -- see, God is creative. He comes forth through the individual mind as an individual expression of the mind of the spirit -- to have the exact same thoughts, I would really doubt it. Yeah.


OK, because this what was -- this was what was said, and a friend and I, we were saying that -- we were discussing it, and I was saying, well, if there was, like, you were saying, a crisis or a situation that arose, then God would -- the people He would, whoever He would pick, would have the same type of thought or whatever, just like a situation rose up where I was having thoughts or feelings about my friend, and I thought they were the Lord, but at the same time, my friend was picking up those thoughts, and I did not know until after we had talked, and I believe it -- that it was the Lord now, after we had talked and everything. I believe it was the Lord letting her feel what was going on with me so that she can stop and pray and rebuke that. That was -- that feeling that was trying to infiltrate in me trying to turn me against my friend, OK, and I said, well, I can see where, yes, in that instance, you would have the same feeling; that would be God doing that, that work, I said, but for a whole congregation or for even a select few -- they have to wake up with the same exact thought, like, you are tuned into, like, on "Star Trek" the Borg, you know, one mind, one thought, it sounds New Age, --


Yeah, I do not like the --


-- you know?


-- sound of it at all.


I told -- and I told her, I said, it sounds New Age because what purpose would it be? God -- if you are all -- way over there in Mays Landing, I am way over here in -- you know, where I am -- where I am He might tell me, I want you to go over here and minister to this person while He's [?haved?] you at home getting revelation or teaching you something to share with somebody else, you know, but I said that, yes, we are to have the mind of Christ, but Christ [?is not?is in?] -- that does not mean we are going to have one single thought flowing through.


Right. It is my understanding of the Scripture that the body in full stature can be likened unto an orchestra. Each of us will be an individual expression of the mind of Christ, yet we shall harmonize.


            Yes, yes.




            Yes. But different instruments plucking at the --




            -- different chords --




            -- and things like that but in harmony.


Yes, we shall not be clones --




-- or zombies.




That is the other guy. He is not very creative. No, I do not think so.




            You have any questions [INAUDIBLE]




Please pass him the microphone.


I have a -- I had a couple of dreams --




-- that were just -- for an example, just -- I think it was Tuesday morning, I had a dream or -- would you call it a dream or a vision or, I do not know -- I have actually -- I have traveled different places, you know, in the Spirit, and usually the Lord will deal with me when I am in a dream -- or I mean -- in a dream-type state, OK? Just recently, I came in; I was working at midnight. You know, I work midnight shifts a lot. I came in; as I laid down, you know, I began to -- I began to go to sleep, but most of the time I am sleeping, but I am more conscious than I am even awake right now even speaking to you, OK? And I can begin a dream that I can feel like I can be walking along, and all of a sudden, the Lord will just lift my feet, and I can feel like He is starting to take me somewhere. Now, --


You are not physically walking. In your dream you are walking?


In my dream I am walking, right. Now, this has been going on I would say as early as maybe 10, 11 years old, I remember going into, like, dreams where the Lord would just start lifting me up, and I would literally be flying over countrysides [sic] and, you know, I am 30 years old; I just went on a plane this last year for the first time, but yet I knew how it was, how it felt to fly because I had, you know -- been, you know, over different places. I even had one time where the Lord took me to the other side of the universe and back, literally.






Where did you go to?


            I mean, through the stars and everything.




I mean, it is -- I have had some pretty awesome experiences, but with all that, just recently, this was maybe about, maybe three or four days ago, as I laid down, I will just -- I will tell you the dream; then, you know, you can --


Well, I was in my van, and I was driving along, and I went down into, like, a tunnel, almost like a parking garage, OK? It was underground, and I came up to a MAC machine. I was going to use a MAC machine. I pulled a van up beside a column or a pillar, and as I was pulling in, I saw two black men; they looked African, you know, not like -- you know, I mean, like, the real deep, dark black, you know, African people, OK? There was two of them, and I drove in past, you know, down into the garage, and I parked near this column, and I went to go to the MAC machine, and as I got out, something said, you know, check your car again, so I went back, and I looked, made sure that the car was locked, and I went to the MAC machine, and I saw, I s- -- I believe it was a woman start running towards me, so I went to go around the column. I went to go the opposite way around the column. It was not to interact with this person, and as I came around the column, I began to walk, and then I began to feel that light feeling where I was coming up. Now, I have not been there before. I -- whenever I start feeling that, before I used to cut it short, but now I started learning how to yield to that because, you know, in my dream I used to cut it short until, I would say, the last year or two when I started learning how to really, you know, yield over because the more you yield, the father, you know, you get taken, OK?


So this particular time I felt my f- -- yeah, I was walking along, and my feet started to come up, and I started to recognize that the Lord wanted to take me somewhere. So as I am walking along, I began to float, you know, and start that flying, and I came into this giant room that was -- it was dark, and I was floating along, and then I began to come down and see the floor. It was almost like a big dance hall or something to that effect. Excuse me.


So I began to see the floor, and there was these orange tiles; the whole floor was orange tiles. So I began to come closer down to the floor, and as I was just about, like, skimming the floor, I heard these, like, taps, like, you know, somebody walking along the floor. Like, I do not know if you ever -- like, let us say a schoolhouse or something; you know how they have the wax floors? Well, that is how it was, orange tile, wax floors, and I begin to hear these footsteps, like somebody is walking along. You know, like, they had heels walking, so then I kept hearing tap, tap, tap, tap, you know, walking along, and the wh- -- as I got closer to the floor, it led to a hallway, and the hallway -- as I came into the hallway, the hallway lit up, and there was strange sounds where I saw two other black men there, and one looked like he was retarded, and the other one looked like he was a mental patient, so I got the feeling like I was in a -- like, a mental ward or something; that is the feeling I got.


So as I came up, and I saw, you know, this hallway with the mental ward, I began to go down, and I passed a doorway, and as I passed the doorway, inside the door, I could see a bunch of women, about, maybe, say, 15 to 20 women, inside, and they just looked like they were having a meeting or some kind of committee, OK, so I went through that door, and I passed through the room with all these women there, so after I went through the door with all the women, I passed through that room, then all of a sudden, I came into this place where there was a bright -- I mean, you know, how, like, bright sunshine is, when there is no clouds or anything like that? Well, this was even brighter than that. It was like a giant park, OK, with trees, and, you know, the whole bit, and there was a lot of people out there. There was -- they were in line. You know, I would say, like, they were in rows, like, say, 10 by 10, and they were doing some kind of line dance, and -- but they looked like they were having a lot of fun and everything, and it was just out in the middle of this park, and as I came I was walking around, you know, through the park, and then all of a sudden, I came up on this one woman; she was dressed in white, and she began to sing a song to me, and the song was so beautiful. You know, I am, like, a musician, so I am always --


Oh, are you?


Yeah, and the Lord always, you know, brings songs to me, you know, through the Spirit, so whenever I hear something, I am always thinking, hey, I can, you know, this is the Lord giving me a song. I try to remember it, OK?


So as she is singing this song, it was so beautiful. It was unbelievable. I am thinking, let me try to remember this song, and she stopped me; she says, no, listen to the words; the Lord is trying to tell you something. OK? So, as I am listening to the words, which I still -- I probably remembered them subconsciously but consciously I cannot even remember exactly what was even being said or the melody even. I just remembered that the song was so beautiful it cut right through to my spirit, and I mean, it was truly music from out of the spirit, so -- but the lady said, listen, you know, Lord is trying to tell you something.


So as I am looking over, there was a giant church bigger than I ever seen before, a giant white church, and it had -- the trimmings -- it was trimmed in gold, and it was painted -- the accent colors were maroon and green. I mean, it was so beautiful that I made a conscious effort while I was there to say, man, that is beautiful; I got to remember these colors because I had never seen any detail, any size, and I just -- and this was sitting out in the middle of this giant park or field or whatever it was, you know, with all these people, and it was almost like, I guess, what was the word? Maybe utopia or something like that. Something -- you know, that type of effect. And then I am still, you know, floating around, you know, and it was just so beautiful. It was overwhelming.


So, as I am going along, -- excuse me -- I caught a glimpse of something out of my eye, and all of a sudden it was, you know, it turned into, like, a fog, that I could see somebody over there, and it was -- as I was floating along in the Spirit, I caught a glimpse of somebody else also floating along in the Spirit, and first I -- it was only a glimpse, but then, it -- you know, it manifested; it was a body; it was like a person in a suit; it was a blue suit, OK, that covered their whole body and even their head, and the only thing that you could see was their face, OK, covered their hair and everything; all you could see was a face, but then I saw that person, and they saw me, and we were so overjoyed to see each other; it was like meeting somebody in the Spirit where we were so, you know, joy to see somebody, you know, and meet -- and we actually came up and touched hands. I mean, it was as real as if I was holding my wife's hand and your hand; we actually came up, and we touched hands. I mean, I actually grasped this person, and this feeling of joy was just so overflowing that, I mean, it was -- I had -- like I said, I have traveled, you know, a lot of different places before in the Spirit, but I never met anybody else. Usually it was just me and the Lord taking me different places, but I never met anybody else that was also traveling the same way I was, OK, but I met up, and, like I said, I latched onto this person, and it came back to me later that the face looked familiar. I have a sister, and it looked like her, OK? But I was also thinking a lot of times, the Lord will bring something that is familiar to you so you are not, you know, fearful, but after I latched onto this person, the lady who was singing the song to me, who also had the same face as this person that I latched onto, said, I want to take you, you know, somewhere else, and she led me, and we were back at this giant church I was telling you about. But in back of the church, couple hundred yards away, or whatever, was a little white, like, raggedy type of house, and as I came back through there, I came into the house, and there was these two black men that I saw at the beginning at -- you know, in the parking garage, wherever it was, these two African-looking men. I remember they -- they -- there was a few other people in the house, but you could tell they were really poor, very, very power, and, you know, their nose was running and everything else.


So I went -- and this person that led me there had taken off. They went outside or something, but I went to talk with these people, and at first, the guy pulled a gun on me, and he had this gun in, you know, my face, and you could tell they were like, --


[?What?] are these two black guys --


Right, pulled a gun on me, OK, so I am sitting there; I am talking to the guy straight; next thing you know, I took the gun out of his hand, and I put it in -- you know, in the back of my pants, and, you know, they started talking about God. You know, I got the impression that they were not, you know, exactly, you know, thrilled with the situation, you know, of God's people, OK? And they really did not have anything good to say about it, and then the guy kept going into, like, the kitchen and other rooms and going under cupboards, and he would pull something out. One time he had a screwdriver in his hand, but he was pretending it was a gun, and he would pull it on me, and -- knowing I had the gun and -- and -- well, actually at this point, before I put it back, I still had the gun in my hand, and he would pull stuff out to see if I would shoot him, you know, [?in defense of?and defense?] myself, but each time, I would wait and see what he had, and then I would not shoot him. Finally, I put the thing back, and so then I -- after I finally said, OK, enough of these games, I said to him, we came back -- we came into another room, and I said -- I sat down. There was a table, a bench or something there, but it had a wet blanket on it. I accidentally sat on it, and I could feel the wetness, and I smell urine, and -- so I just got up; I did not -- you know, make a big deal out of it; I just got up, and I moved aside, and I said, well, you want to hear about God? Let me tell me you what I know about God, and I was beginning to start to minister to him, and all of a sudden, the lady that had brought me there from the beginning appeared, and I saw the -- a door which had -- which is a doorway which led to the room with the women that -- you know, that room of women that I came through; that door appeared, and I began to tell him; I do not have much time; let me tell you about this, OK?


So then as I started talking with them, the next thing you know, I began to, like, spin, and it -- everything started to go in reverse. I went through that door with -- where the women were, and then I went through that hallway, and then I came back, you know, where that big dance hall was with the tile. I did not go back to the parking garage, but as I began to spin, I came out of it, and then I woke up. Excuse me. I woke up -- and about a minute after I woke up, the alarm clock went off for me to wake my kids up. So I do not know if it was subconscious that I knew was -- because I knew, probably subconsciously, that if the alarm went off, I -- you know, the Spirit would be broken, OK, and I would not be able to go back there, so I was trying to tell them to hurry up.


But, anyway, as I came out of there, I woke up, and, like, say, a minute later, the alarm went off, and I went over, and I shut the alarm off, and I went back and sat back on the bed and laid my head down, and then it was -- I had realized what I had just experienced, and it was so awesome that I just began to cry. I mean, it began with -- a single tear came down my eye, and then I just began, and my whole body was tingling from my waist all the way up to the top of my head, and I just began -- my eyes began to tear, and then I just began to cry [?as?-- it is?] -- because it was such an awesome, beautiful experience. Now, I have not shed a tear in maybe 10 or 12 years, and that is very, very rare for me to do something like that, but it was so beautiful and overwhelming, that I just began to cry. I mean, this lasted about 20 minutes before I was even able to really -- my wife will tell you, I laid back down in bed, and I just had tears running down my face, and I felt like I had touched the hand of God. That is literally how I felt, and it was just so overwhelming that I could not even -- I mean, it was, like, a couple hours after, I was -- even an hour later I was telling my wife about it, and I was just sitting there, and I was just -- like, my brain was almost, like, fried or something. I was just in such awe. I mean, -- and -- like I said, I have been a lot of places, and I have come back from a lot of places, but this particular time, it was just -- it was overwhelming; that is the only word I really can describe.


That is quite a dr- -- that is quite a dream. I thought you had a dream. That was a journey.


Well, that is literally how it was. And I -- it was -- from the tears rolling out, it was almost -- it was mixed; it was, like, o- -- being overwhelming, and then it was joy, and al- -- it was also a sadness that I was not able to finish, you know, and stay with these people and finish what I had started. And that is -- you know, like I said, my whole body was tingling from my waist up. Prior to that -- a few weeks prior to that, I had another dream or journey w- -- I do not know what you want to call it --




-- one second -- where something similar had happened, but I had -- when I woke up, there was a [?shape?] about this much in my head where the whole thing was just tingling, and, I do not know, maybe you can shed some light on all that.


Well, to be honest with you, [?Brother James?], I -- that is really -- I have never heard anything like it before, but I will make these comments, and frequently, as I talk, the Lord moves on me, so let us see what happens. I do believe that there are certain symbols in dreams given by God, which are universal. You may have heard of Freud, who has -- he believes in universal dream symbols, but his dream symbols are all pretty much demonic, and he relates them back to human sexuality, but I believe that any universal symbol in Christ can be found in the Scripture, OK? So, there were a few, what I consider, universal symbols in your dreams. I would like to just touch on them, and we will see what the Lord comes forth with, OK? And please correct me if I am wrong. Sometimes my memory is not the best, so if I got it wrong, please tell me.


I believe you told me that -- excuse me, you were starting to lift off the ground, but then you went down into a tunnel. Is that correct?


            It is -- I originally, I drove down into this tunnel --


You drove down into the tunnel. OK.


            -- in my van.


OK. Well, a descent usually means to go from a particular spiritual realm down to a lower spiritual realm. OK, and that is standard throughout the Scripture. If ever you read, "and so and so went down into Egypt," it means that spiritually they were descending, if you are looking for the spiritual aspect of it. So what that says to me is that the Lord was taking you to a realm lower than where you are, and that it was His intention to show you the condition -- or some of the conditions of this world system as He sees them, OK?


The two black men that you -- well, the garage is underground.




OK, and I believe this world system is Hell, OK. That which is underground is our spirit. We are spirit, OK, and our spirit is buried under our soul and under this prison house of a body, so we are in Hell now. And that was -- that going down into a tunnel and into a garage would indicate that the Lord was taking you -- He wanted to show you the true spiritual condition or aspects of the true spiritual condition of our existence.


Jesus said to the Pharisees, I will tell you the truth, and the truth will set you free. And they said, we do not need your truth; we have our own truth, but the truth is that we are in Hell, and that we are dead, and that this whole existence is death, and that the only one -- the only member of the human race was actually experienced life is the Lord Jesus Christ. We do not know what it is. I have been listening to a lot of news programs recently about Russia, especially Pat Robertson. He has been saying about the Russian people and their travail right now. They have never experienced democracy. They simply do not know what it is. They are having trouble bringing it to birth in Russia because no one, not one member of their society has ever experienced it. No one in our humanity has ever experienced life. We do not know what it is. OK? So the Lord was taking you down, and the first thing that you saw, this underground world, known as Hades, OK, that is this world, were two black men.


Now, black in the Scripture, to the best of my understanding, I have been praying about it for years, has nothing to do with race. God does not see race. God is looking at the souls and the spirits of men. Now, he is not looking at our flesh. So black, if you just look it up in Webster's Dictionary, it means an absence of light. So to -- in all of my dreams, and even in the Song of Solomon, she says my lover, my lover was black. He is -- he was without the light of God.


So you went down into this tunnel, which is underground, which is Hell, and there were two men without the light of God; they were in darkness. Make sense?




And you said they were very dark.




And they looked African. So that means that they were -- that possibly the Lord was saying they came from the dark continent, not only were they in darkness but they were in the depths of witchcraft, OK, which lies over Africa like a blanket, so you -- He took you down to Hell, and He showed you two men that were in the depths of darkness and in the grips of witchcraft, and I find that whenever God shows two men together like that, usually it means the carnal mind, the corporate carnal mind and Satan, which are always found together, Satan being the unconscious mind of man and the carnal mind being the conscious mind of fallen man, and in my dreams God has always expressed these two men together. OK, we are told there is two men in a bed, right? OK. And this whole creation is one living soul. God only made one living soul. It is a many-membered living soul, and our natural example is the human body. I look at you, and you look like one person to me, but you are made up of many organs, and you are made up of billions of cells, so there is a spiritual man in the earth today; his name is Adam, who has died; he is dead Adam, and he has billions of cells; each human being as we know each other is a cell in the spiritual body of this spiritual man called dead Adam. So the two men to me is a universal symbol of Adam, of fallen Adam, his carnal mind and Satan. He was in great darkness indicating this fallen Adam.


And then you drove the truck in; a truck typifies a carnal means of transportation, so it meant that you were still in your humanity, OK?


Now whether this dream was a spiritual experience in itself or whether the Lord was telling you that He is going to really show you the Hell, that He is going to take the veil up and let you see Hell as it is.


Now, I do not know; are your dreams usually predictive, or are they experiences in themselves?


            They are usually experiences in themselves.


They are not predictive?


            No, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] no.






Well, all of -- pretty much all of my dreams are predictive, and I have a dream file; I write them up, and they come to pass anywhere from six to 18 months down the line, --






So, now, if your dreams -- it is a possibility that the dream is predictive, and God is telling [?him?you?] -- now, I am not prophesying to you; this is just a possibility, OK, that He is calling you to this entire ministry, and the entire ministry, to be a member of the two-witness company, you have to see this existence for what it is, OK? Because you cannot judge men's hearts if you cannot see it for what it is. OK? So that is what it is on my heart. The Lord may be telling you, especially if you are here talking to me because that is what I preach, you know? He may be telling you that you are called to this ministry, and that He is going to show you; He is going to pull back the veil of all the nice grass and the children running on the streets and show you what this world really is. OK?


And -- that you will still be in your humanity when He shows it to you because the two-witness company is a group of believers who have not yet attained to perfection but who God has chosen and who has passed His testing, to the measure that they are willing to look at their own sin and confess it and receive the correction. OK, that is pretty much the qualification, and, of course, you have to be sold out to God, and then He sends you to expose sin in other men's hearts without condemnation. We are to expose sin for the purpose of getting them set free also because all men are not strong enough to look at their own heart and confess it. Most men are not strong enough to do it. The Scripture says if you judge yourself, you will not be judged, [?but?] at least most of the people that God sends me, they just -- they just cannot see it. So, He is raising up a company of people who can see it, but you have to see it in yourself before you can see it in someone else --




-- to go and tell these people; these are your sins; you know, now, repent. God wants to set you free. OK? So that is what it sounds like to me, off the top of my head and -- because you are still in your car.


And then, I do not know whether I left something out or not. Then all of a sudden, you were in a park; you were in a field [CROSSTALK]


No, after I was -- after I got out of the car, something told me to go back and make sure it was locked.


Make sure the car was locked, OK.


And I went back, and, you know, I -- so I -- I made sure it was locked, and then after I made sure it was locked, I went over to the MAC machine.


What -- I do not know what a MAC machine is.


            It looks like an ATM, automatic teller machine.


Oh, OK, yeah.


            OK. I am sorry. [?I think?] --


I have never heard it called a MAC before --


-- they probably have [UNINTELLIGIBLE] serious, nice, you know, the automatic teller machine.




And I cannot remember if I took any mo- -- I believe I did take some money out. I am not sure, but as I went over to the machine, I saw a woman running up. It was like a flash of a woman.


Let me stop here because I -- I g- -- I do not hold onto the memory. You went back to make sure the door -- to make sure the car was locked; what that says to me is, the Lord is taking you out of your carnal transportation, OK, make sure it is locked up, either that you do not fall back into it or that no one could fall into it when you are not there. It is -- it was a carnal means of transportation. So it was not for anyone else's use. Your walk, your lifestyle, your human lifestyle. OK, you were going forward, and it was not for anyone else. Then you went to the ATM, and you made a withdrawal, OK, typifying spiritual riches. I would say you made a transfer from a carnal lifestyle into a spiritual lifestyle. OK, now, it could be your whole life; it could be an aspect of your life. OK, again, if the dream is predictive, the Lord is telling you that He -- there is a call on your life, that He has a ministry for you, if it is predictive. OK.


OK, then you saw a woman running towards the machine?


Yeah, I saw, like, a flash of a woman, you know, running up towards the car, but I did not go towards her. I went around a pillar or a column that I had pulled a van up next to. I went around the other way and came back around, like, say -- say if the column was here, and the van was parked next to it, and here is the ATM, she was coming up here, and I was at the ATM, so I just went around back that way.


What was the spirit on her? Was she coming for you, or she was just coming to use the machine?


            I believe she was coming for me.


And was she hostile?


It was just a flash, but I just -- from the feeling I got, I did not -- I was not inclined to go towards her.


You ran from her?




Yeah. OK, this whole soul realm -- well, every spirit in relationship to God is female. But this soul realm, in particular, God describes as female, and as I said, I do not want to go off on any tangents tonight, but we found out that Satan is female, actually is female. I just want to back up a little bit that the two men that you saw, the only male is Christ, so for two men -- for them to appear as males covered with darkness, OK, that would typify to me, Satan in the carnal mind who have taken on the authority of a man. OK? But for whatever reason, God showed this woman running to you as a female, and probably what is in my heart, she was trying to get into that ATM and get out some of the money or some of the spiritual riches that you got out that you probably thought she was going to, like, get in the door, you know, before -- right before --


            Oh, right, yeah --


-- it closes? Something like that. And the Scripture says the kingdom of God [?suffers?] violence and that the violent ticket by force -- the principalities of this soul realm are trying to capture the kingdom of God. They want it, OK? And they are trying to take it by force, but you cannot steal the kingdom of God, so that is what is in my heart. The soul realm which is right in your own mind saw what God was doing with you and tried to get in on it, but you got away from her. OK? She wanted to steal it from you. Satan's a thief, yeah. OK.


That is the feeling I got. Like, s- -- you know, it was almost like somebody was coming to steal from me.


Yeah, yeah. So --


            And I went around the other way --




            -- in order to --


OK, so you see, at this point, you had received your spiritual riches and anyone that moves in Christ we become male. There is no male or female in Christ Jesus because the things of the Spirit are all of the mind, and I find it very significant that you were tingling from the waist up because our human sexuality means nothing to God. If your mind is joined to Christ, you are male. And if your mind is carnal, you are female for spiritual purposes. It has nothing to do -- spiritual experiences have nothing whatsoever to do with your body; it has to do with your mind, so you were male, and withdrawing those riches, you were male, and that must have been your carnal mind who was female in relationship to your spiritual male is -- was trying to get in on the act there, but you got away from --






OK. So from there you went into the field?


Yeah, from there, I -- as I came around -- it was almost like walking through the garage, but I came into an area, everything, you know, went dark, and I -- as I was walking along, I began to feel myself lift up, and then everything -- you know, the background went dark, but as I began to, I guess, float along, I was in the giant room, which almost like a big dance hall, --




-- and I just remember coming down -- I remember seeing the floor, and I kept -- I came closer and closer to the floor. It was an orange tile floor.




You know, the shiny --




-- you know, the shiny tile like they have in the schools --




-- and they keep it waxed up. And I came down closer, and I saw the tile. And as I got closer to the tile, I began to hear these footsteps, like somebody is walking down, you know, the wax floor, and I just, you know, with, like, taps or something on their heels, whatever, but as I came down closer to the floor, I almost began to follow the floor, and that led me into this hallway --


OK, --


            -- which --


-- let me stop you before I forget.




Well, it sounds to me like the Lord is just giving you a tour of the whole spiritual experience of this world system. You went down to the lowest Hell, OK, and you withdrew s- -- the spiritual riches that you needed to ascend. That means you drew upon the spirit which is within you; you let go of your carnality. You with- -- you drew on your spiritual riches. And you began to ascend, and it looks like He is, to me, like, He is showing you all the various stages on the way up to Heaven. Now, the next -- this big room that you went into -- it could be, for example, the church world, OK, which is one step above the lowest Hell, OK, and this hard tile on the floor, I have had dreams of something like that, and it usually means, in my dreams it has usually meant some manifestation of God because He is the hard one, OK? He is -- I just got a contradiction in my mind. Let me just go over this. He -- well, He is the rod of iron, OK, and He is the stone -- He -- OK, He is the rock. He is the stone. When you said, like, tiles in a school, but what I kept thinking when you were talking was more like -- I am not sure what they call it, but tiles on a floor, that it is almost like stone tiles.


            Oh, like, marble tiles?


Yeah, it is not marble, but I do not know what it is made of, but, like, they have it in Europe a lot and Spain.




Well, they put it in houses. It is not really cobblestone.




But is that what you saw? Was it a stone, or was it asphalt tile?


It was -- Well, I guess -- it was asphalt. There was one other thing that comes to me -- you know, just now when I was thinking about it. The tile was orange, but it had raised, white bumps on it, like a design, like, you know, how --




            -- like, you ever seen braille?




            Well, you know how braille has the raised bumps?




            It was the raised bumps on the floor --




            -- at that point, but when I got into the hallway, the tile was smooth.


And it was all orange? There was [CROSSTALK]


            It was all orange, right. And it was -- in the hallway it was all waxed up.


Yeah. Well, all that is coming to me is that [?a?the?] floor is a foundation. Orange, I do not really -- I have never really had orange in a dream before, but I perceive it to be a foundation of stone, that it is some measure of Christ coming forth, which would mean that that room might typify the church, which is one step up above fallen humanity. And was all filled with women, you said.


After I got into the hallway and I saw two more black men, which one looked retarded --




            -- and the other one looked like he was crazy, like he had mental illness --




Now that I think about it, there was a -- I saw on the right side of the hallway, there was a doorway there, and it looked like a bunch of crazy people in it. But on the left side of the hallway, I saw the open door with these women, and that is the door I went through.


OK, the left door had the women, and the right door had the retarded and the crazy [?ones?].




That is interesting. The left -- the left hand is judgment, OK, so on the judgment side, all these spiritual females, which in the church today is largely [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- there is very few spiritual males in the church today. How do I know that? It is filled with false doctrine and every form of spiritual perversion, OK, and that is the result -- scripturally speaking of a lack of male leadership, male -- of the mind -- leadership. OK, the church is in the condition today because spiritually it is being judged -- excuse me -- that is the scriptural term; it is being judged or ruled by spiritual women and children. OK, that is how God sees it. So judgment was for them. They are all female.


And on the right there was a retarded man. Is that what you said?


            Yeah, there was two --


Two --


            -- men standing --


They were male?


            -- in the hallway. Yeah.


That is interesting because God is raising up --


            They were black men also.


And they were black men too.




So God is raising up an eldership. Now, the right hand is the right hand of blessing. OK, and God's blessing to the church and to the world is this company of sons that he is currently preparing, and he is -- and -- it is a great sacrifice to be called into this ministry. Whatever -- whoever that sacrifice manifests in an individual's life -- you know, however God works it out with them, it is a giving up of your soulish life to become a savior in Christ. OK, so there on the right hand of God, He is preparing them to be a blessing to the church, but they are still retarded and insane and filled with darkness. [?Yeah?That -- ?] that sounds about right, yeah.




So that is how I perceive that, yeah.




Yeah. I had a dream once that I was in an insane asylum, and I was the only one that knew that I was in an insane asylum, and I was sitting there, and all the member [sic] of -- well, all the members of my congregation and a lot of people that I knew, they were all passing through there, and they were marrying and giving in marriage and cleaning and painting, and I was the only one that knew that we were in an insane asylum.


Oh, no.


I believe that is how God sees this existence from a spiritual viewpoint, from the mind of a man who is spiritually so high that He has been born out of this existence, OK, into the heavenlies. He looks at us; we are retarded, and we are insane; we are -- and we are certainly filled with darkness. Yet, we are on the right hand of God, and He is working with us to prepare us.


So how can you have pride? I mean, if you really have this revelation, you know, if you really have this revelation, you cannot have any pride. So if you have pride, it means you do not have the true revelation. That is my opinion. You cannot have any measure of the true understanding of how God sees us, and you cannot understand what He wants to do for us until you see what we really look like. You know? And if you see what we really are, you know, there is no pride anywhere, yeah. There is just no room for it because everybody is fallen. What good is it to say, you are more fallen than I am? You know, it is like saying your leprosy is not as bad as mine. It is just ridiculous. You know, so there is just no room for any of it, you know?


So that is how I see that. Now, the floor though, --




I have never dealt with the color orange. I do not know what it means. I would like to know, Lord, and the white bumps on it, what that says to me is that there has not yet been a joining. I know I spoke to [?Studsy?] about this that I believe, and I am -- I believe -- this is not my opinion -- this is the revelation I am walking in right now -- that Christ is growing in us, but He is not yet joined to us. Therefore, we cannot legitimately say we are God. We are not God. God is being formed in us. OK? The mind of Christ is not our -- e- -- it is not the mind that is keeping -- that is keeping us -- I do not like to use the word alive -- that is sustaining us in this existence. The mind of Christ is a second mind, OK? The carnal mind is sustaining our existence. And we now have a second mind growing in us. We have access to it. I like to use computer language to make this point. We have access to it. We can call it down. We can use it, but we default to the carnal mind.


OK, so Christ is in us. We have access to Him, and He can answer our prayers or not answer our prayers, and I believe that He answers every righteous prayer that we pray, so if He does not answer your prayer; it means either -- it was not in righteous prayer, or He has to prepare you or give you foundational teachings or foundational experiences before He can answer it, your prayer, and that could take a couple of years depending on what you have asked for.


So why did I start to t- -- oh, yeah, the tile, I was talking about -- so we are not yet joined, and I see in the tile orange and white and one higher than the other, OK, so white is -- could be the righteousness of the saints; it could be Christ -- could be the elevation over the tile, and then in the next room, they had become one. OK, and that is the end of our -- [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?be?] -- of our resurrection. We are being raised from the dead. And this resurrection is in three stages. We read about the first resurrection in the Book of Revelation, and most Christians will tell you, well, the first group to be resurrected, OK -- no, no, no, it is the first stage of resurrection. If you look up the Greek word that is translated first in that phrase, it can also be translated first stage, and I maintain it is the first stage of the resurrection that is available to all of humanity, but it is happening one at a time just like we are receiving the Holy Spirit, one at a time, so I do not want to get off your dream, but I -- that is how I perceive the tiles with the bumps to the completely intermingled tile.


OK. OK, so where did you go from there?


So from there I went, you know, as I went down the hall, I saw the door on the left with the women; it is about 15 to 20 women, it looked like they were having a meeting, or, you know, like, they worked there or some type of meeting. So I went through that room, and then I found myself in this wide open, like, type of park, you know, a lot.


Can I interrupt you for a minute? I do not know if I made it clear that the women were on the left hand of judgment, meaning that judgment is about to fall on them and the end result of their judgment is that they shall be raised up to spiritual manhood. They need the judgment to bring them into Sp- -- into Christ. The ones on the right hand, they were already on their way -- God saw them as male even though they were retarded and mentally ill. OK.






So I came out to this area; it was almost like a park, a lot of greenery, and it was so bright; it was brighter than any sunshine I have ever seen. And there was a lot of, like I said, trees and green fields and all. I saw there was a group of people, you know, in a line, almost, you know, 10 across and 10 [?deep?] -- you know, just to give you an idea, --




            -- and they were doing that --


They were square, 10 by 10?


That is just the number that comes to me, but it was about that many people. They were --


Ten by 10, [CROSSTALK]


They were all lined up, and they were doing some kind of dance, you know, all together like in unison, and everybody was having a good time with it and all, and I just remember -- I was not doing the dancing, but I was sitting back by some trees, you know, watching it, and that is when I saw this other woman I -- came up [?by?] this other woman who was dressed in white --


OK, before you go into it; let me comment on that. The green grass -- green is the color of the life of God. Spirit -- in spiritual matters, green typifies life. In the matters of the soul, of animal life, green means death. If you look green, it means you are sick, but in plant life, green means life, and spiritual life, our natural example of spiritual life is plant life. We are spiritual plants. We are the planting of the Lord. Jesus said, I am the true vine. We are spiritual plants growing in the earth of our soul. So green grass is a sign of the life of God.


So we see that you are ascending. OK, you pass through the carnal church, and now you are starting to come into the kingdom church where there is some signs of life. The first signs of life is grass -- excuse me, low to the ground, and the people were in a square; 10 by 10 is a square, and we found out that most, if not all, spiritual principles can be expressed geometrically, and the square is the symbol of the perfected creation, --


            Oh, [UNINTELLIGIBLE]


-- the totally perfected -- not --




Now, I used to know what the number 10 symbolizes; for some reason it is eluding me. The number 10. It is the number of the law. Number 10 signifies the number of the law. It is this world system is under the law. So the people that were dancing, they were still carnal people who were under the law, OK, but there was life present. OK, that is probably people like us, some signs of life, but we are still under the law -- we are under the s- -- the physical laws; we are under the spiritual laws, and they were dancing a line dance; the line is the geometric expression of the carnal man, OK, so that is very interesting, and they were dancing in unison, OK.


            They were all doing the same --


They were all doing the same thing.




It just sounds to me, like, carnal people who were starting to touch, starting to lay hold of the life of God. OK, and then a beautiful woman came out.


Yeah, then I saw a woman; she was dressed in white, and as I came over her, she began to sing this song to me that was -- I mean, it was so beautiful that it just -- the music and all -- and the words, they just cut right through to my spirit, and I began to try to memorize it, you know, so that -- because I knew that I would be going back and, you know, whenever I get something in the Spirit, I always try to make a conscious [?thing of it?] so I can bring it back out because when I come out of it, then I can, you know, especially music, recreate it, or, you know, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?that is?] how the Lord will give me a song or something like that, so as I was trying to remember, I even remember saying, ooh, let me write that down, and the woman stopped me and said, no, she said, listen, the Lord is trying to tell you something. And then I began to listen. I cannot remember what was -- what the words were. I guess I -- maybe was so captivated by the song, I do not know -- but then I began to move on, and that is when I saw --


[?OK?], let me talk about this first [UNINTELLIGIBLE] and what it [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. Well, what is coming to me is a song in the Scripture. Songs typify spiritual power, OK. Music -- I am sorry. Music typifies spiritual power, and song typifies doctrine. Excuse me. The Song of Solomon. There's a Song of Moses.


And the lady is dressed in white, which is again righteousness, but she is female. That is confusing me a little, that I -- that she is female, but actually, you know, what is coming to me is that God is presenting you with the -- with this -- with the hidden manna, the deep doctrine of the Scripture. And there was a woman with a measure of righteousness, who was offering it t- -- or there was being offered to you, through this woman -- probably means me, [?you know?], to be frank with you, if this is the true interpretation of it.


And she was saying to you, "do not try to memorize this doctrine," because it is not a doctrine that can be comprehended by the carnal mind. You cannot memorize it. It has to go into your spirit and work its way through your spirit and start growing out of you, OK? Now most people who God calls to this doctrine -- or some of them anyway -- they get very frustrated. I have heard this from so many people: I understand you when you are talking to me, but I cannot explain it to anybody. I had one woman say to me -- she said, I do not understand, Sh- -- this woman was heavily into witchcraft. She said, I used to teach all kinds of deep, spiritual doctrines. I cannot believe that I cannot give this doctrine back out.


[?And it is like?] you cannot grasp it.


Yeah. It is -- you know, they all said, I un- -- we understand you, what you are talking about, but I cannot expla- -- cannot get it out. And I told them, and I tell everybody, this doctrine I believe -- I am not saying I have the last word, but I believe it is at least the beginnings of the hidden manna that is promised to us in the Book of Revelation.


And no one is going to be able to give this out of their carnal mind. It can only come out of you when Christ is being formed in you, OK? All spiritual riches are in Christ. OK, they are hidden in the heart of Christ. And when this truth is in Christ, that means He controls who it is given to. See, the carnal man -- a lot of carnal men would like to lay hold of this doctrine in their carnal mind and give it to other people so that their own glory could be exalted for their own pride. And there is no way that this glory of God is going to be sold, OK? And if someone tries to teach it for their own pride, the scriptural expression is to sell it -- there is no way this doctrine is going to be sold. This doctrine is for the salvation of man unto the glory of God and for no other reason. And th- -- no carnal mind will be able to lay hold of it. You see, a carnal mind could not re- -- that is the word: retain it. Your carnal mind could not retain it, OK?


So the only way it is going to come out of you is when Christ is formed in you. Now a lot of the people that fir- -- God first calls to this doctrine, Christ is not yet being formed in them. I have no way of knowing whether He is being formed in you or not. I have absolutely no way of knowing. You could ask God; maybe He will tell you. I have no way of knowing because when Christ begins to be formed in you -- in a person -- it begins as a seed. And the natural example is human conception. Your woman does not know that she is pregnant. She may not even know herself for at least a month or two months, OK.


So when that conception first takes places, James calls it the engrafted word, OK. Now remember Jesus is the word. He is the seed; He is the male seed. And when He joins with your human spirit, He becomes engrafted to it. And that is the conception of the Son in you: your personal savior in the midst of you. Christ being formed in me cannot save you; Christ must be formed in you.


So first the seed has to engraft to your spiritual being. And then everyone does not -- everyone's spiritual fetus does not grow at the same rate of speed, OK? I can water, and I can -- but only God could give the increase, OK? And He gives the increase in accordance with His own purposes. He is doing something. He is raising up a company of saviors. He is going to raise this whole creation from the dead, and He is doing it in accordance with His plans and His timetable.


So the first thing that this doctrine will do, if it is successful with you -- whoever the person is -- is that if you have not yet the engrafted word, the word will engraft to you. If you already have the engrafted word, it is food. It will cause it to grow. It is food for the engrafted word. And then the Lord could just enable every individual to take in as much of it as they can and to bring forth Christ in you to fulfill His purposes as fast as it is going to be. Everyone's -- it is strictly individual between you and God.


So just to finish my thought: So the reason people can understand the doctrine but they cannot give it out is that the carnal mind cannot -- God will not allow it. The carnal mind cannot give it out. So you have to hold on if you feel -- you know, some people I tell them, you know, if you feel distressed, you have to rebuke pride because that is all that it is. And you have to wait until that seed sprouts and Christ matures in you enough for you to give it out. And by the time that happens, your pride will not want to give it out anymore anyway because the Christ that is being formed in you is killing your pride. So all things work together. So that is why you could not retain the doctrine.






            [?Praise God?].


Glory to God, yeah.


So after that that is when I saw the giant church: I mean, a bigger church than I ever seen before in my life. And it was big, and it was white. Yeah, it had the staples and all, but it was, kind of, trimmed in gold. And it had -- the accent colors were maroon and green. It was, like, almost -- like, on the steeple going up, there was a section of it that was colored in maroon. And then the -- there was another section that was green on top of it. And it was so beautiful that I made a mental note to remember those colors because, you know, I just -- I said, I am going to have to remember this, you know, when I come out --




-- because, I mean, I never saw anything like it before. And at that point, that is when I caught a glimpse of something. And it, kind of, went -- started to go, you know, dark. I was not there anymore, but I was back, you know, floating.


Yeah. OK, let me comment on the church. What comes to mind is the holy city, New Jerusalem, that we read about in Revelation 21, which is the body of Christ: the true body. The body of Christ is not physical; the true body of Christ is spiritual, OK. This flesh will not enter into the kingdom. So that is what comes to mind: the New Jerusalem.


And she is trimmed in gold, which is our redeemed human spirit. When our human spirit joins to Christ, he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. So through that marriage, we receive all of His deity. So our human spirit is typified, is go -- now she was not always- -- right now she is not gold. She is filthy; she is married to Satan. She is the harlot of Revelation. She is reprobate silver. But we will be redeemed in our spirit. That is the gold.


And the green is the -- I am not really sure. It might me- -- it probably means that life has been given to our soul. We are told in Romans 8:11 that if that Spirit, which raised Christ from the dead -- OK, Christ is the mind, OK -- raised Christ from the dead, dwell in you, He will quicken your mortal body. Now we have to note every difference in word, OK? Christ was raised from the dead, but your mortal body is quickened. It means something else. And first of all, it is not speaking about this physical body, OK? If you do a word study on the word body, you will find out that more often than not, Paul is not referring to this physical body but referring to the soulish body.


Now all bodies are not the same, brethren. Some are celestial, and some are terrestrial, OK? So there is different bodies. And what is a body? It is a container. This physical body is a container of the soul, OK. And when Christ is not in us, this physical body is the only body because the soul is all that there is. But when Christ begins to be formed within your soul, you soul now becomes the body, which is the container, for the Christ, which is being formed in you.


So in most instances, when Paul speaks about the body, he is speaking about our soul, OK? And when he says your mortal body, we know that he is speaking -- well, first of all I call this -- we are going to be [UNINTELLIGIBLE] mind tonight. I cannot even remember my own word. Reverse inference, reverse inference. If you have a mortal soul, well then there must be an immortal soul. Now the Bible does not speak about an immortal soul, but if you have a mortal soul, you have to have an immortal soul, amen.


So the soul that is mortal is the soul that is capable of dying. And the soul that sins, it shall die. So your mortal body is the soul that has not been preserved by the life of Christ, the soul which is capable of dying and is, in fact, dead. Our soul is dead, OK? So if that Spirit, which raised Christ from the dead, dwells in you, it will also quicken your mortal body. When the mind of Christ is raised from the dead in you, He will give life -- not raise from the dead but give life -- to your soul.


Your soul is either dead or alive depending on whether or not the mind in your soul is dead or alive. If your mind is carnal, which is death, your soul is dead. If the mind in you is Christ, He gives life to your soul. He quickens your soul. So the soul is an expression of the mind that is in you. The soul does n- -- the soul is not raised from the dead. It is just expressing the mind that is in it. So why was I telling you that? Why was I telling you --


            [UNINTELLIGIBLE] at the --




Oh, the church, OK. So the green is -- seems to me at this point is expressing the fact that Christ being raised from the dead, typified by the gold, has given life to the soul that it is dwelling in. That is the green.


And the maroon -- that is another color that I have never had any contact with. It seems to me it should be red for the blood of Jesus. Now why it is maroon, which is -- is not maroon red with some blue in it? Is that what maroon is?


            It was maroon like --




Like a deep --


            -- like a wine.


Like a wine color.


Yeah, but it was a -- yeah, it was, I would say, almost that color. It was not purple.




            It was --


Like a deep red?




OK, well, [?then?] I would say the blood of Jesus. Somebody said wine. So we have the redeemed spirit is gold. The quickened soul is green. And that word wine, could you say amen to wine?


            Yeah, it looks like --




            -- the wine color, yeah.


I would say wine would be the Spirit of Christ, which is present in the mind of Christ. The Spirit of Christ, which is the Father, is present in the Christ. So I see that as the New Jerusalem.


            Wow. I mean, it was something -- I never saw a church as beautiful as this --




-- and, you know -- I mean, to the point where I was making a mental note to remember the colors and all --




-- because I just never saw anything put together like this. And there was a lot of detail. It looked like a lot of craftsmanship went into the building.




And you can tell that the -- [?you know?], I caught a glimpse of the inside, which was, like, you know, wooden pews and everything, but you could tell that -- from the outside, that the inside was even more beautiful.


Well, the wood typifies our humanity, so that would be another witness to me that it is the New Jerusalem because our humanity is still there, but it is being preserved by the gold and the green and the red.


            [?Praise God?].


And we know that in our natural type of the tabernacle that the tabernacle was made of wood overlaid with gold. So it sounds to me like you have had an experience similar to what John had when he was seen a- -- when he was shown all of those symbols that when he wrote down made the Book of Revelation.




That is what it sounds to me: like God is giving you a message in symbols about His plan for the redemption of humanity --




-- and that He is calling you to be a part of it.


            But there is more.




OK, so after that -- that is when I caught another glimpse of something. And everything in the background went away, but I saw -- I do not know if it was an arm or a leg, but, you know, I caught it out of the glimpse -- out of the corner of my eye. And then -- you know, I was floating along at this point. Then it began to manifest this person, but they were in a blue -- like a blue, almost like a bodysuit, OK? It was one single suit that covered everything except for their face, OK. I mean, covered the hair, the head and everything. It was only their face was an opening.


And I saw them, and when I saw them, they saw me. And I got this feeling of joy. Like it was, you know -- like this -- just this feeling of joy came up to see somebody else or meet somebody else that was traveling by the same mode that I was. And -- so then as I was coming around this way, they were coming around this way. And then we just -- we met up, and we grabbed ahold of -- we grabbed each other's hand. And I could actually physically feel the hand. I believe I grabbed both hands. We came up like that. And it was just a feeling of joy meeting somebody else there.


And at that point, I remember the face almost looked like -- I have a sister. It almost looked like her face, not exactly but pretty similar to that. And the face was the same face as I saw on the person that was singing the song to me.


Well, I am a little confused that the person was female because what was coming to me -- first of all blue is the heavenly cover -- color. It is the color of the sky. It is the color of heaven. And what came to me was that that person typified the Lord Jesus Christ, who is --


            Well, it did not have female characteristics.


Oh, it did not?


            It was almost like a, you know, a human figure [CROSSTALK]


With no sign of sex.


            No sign of sex, but --




            -- the only thing was opened was the face. That is the only thing that you really --


That looked like your sister. OK, it looked like a relative to you --




-- OK. And we have found many Scriptures -- we just completed a study in Romans 8 last night. And we found one of those verses where the Lord is speaking about His holy ones, His eunuchs. Now we know there is no marriage or giving in marriage in heaven. So when God raises us up to that measure of holiness, He calls us eunuchs. You know, Jesus said there are three kinds of eunuchs: those men who are born eunuchs, those men -- I am sorry: those men who are made eunuchs by men, those men who are born eunuchs and those men who are eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.


So once we ascend to the measure of spiritual authority that Jesus had, there is no more marriage or giving in marriage. You cannot have both this flesh life and the spiritual life. For a season we have both because we are in transition. But when you get caught up to that high place, there is no more marriage or giving in marriage. So God -- we found several places in the Scriptures where God refers to men that have been caught up that high as eunuchs. So there was no sign of physical sexuality, which is another witness to me that what I felt in my heart was that that was the Lord Jesus Christ welcoming the 42nd generation. I do not know if you are familiar with that term or not or --


            We are the 42nd generation.


Right. Well, another way of expressing it is that we are the second generation of Christ. We are His children; we are His offspring. And He has been all alone in the spirit realm, waiting for us to come. And together Christ will be expressed through humanity. So that was my feeling: that it was the Lord Jesus Christ welcoming you, welcoming the whole 42nd generation to this high place in the Spirit. Now why the face looked like your sister and -- but you said it really was sexless. It was just -- I think the concept was that you recognized the person as a relative.


            Yeah, it was not --


Do you have any brothers?


            Yeah, I have two brothers.


Yeah. I do not know why it came up female, but -- or why it came up your sister. We said it is a eunuch. I do not know why, but that is my feeling: that it was -- you typify the whole 42nd generation meeting the Lord Jesus Christ. And He was just delighted to see us coming up.


Now when I touched the hand, it was realer than me grabbing this table. Have you ever heard of anything like that? [?I mean?] --


I have heard things like that. I have heard things like that. I have always questioned it. Not that I think there is anything wrong with it, but this is where -- I will tell you where I am coming from. It is my understanding that the Lord Jesus Christ was crucified, raised from the dead and ascended. And He is now pure Spirit form. He is one with the Father. And He is pouring out of His Spirit upon all flesh. He has become seed, which is being sown into the hearts of men.


So I have heard accounts of people meeting Him in physical form. I guess He is supernatural enough to do that even though He is dispersed into seed at this hour. I have just never had the experience, and it is just an open question in my mind, waiting for God to explain it to me. So I guess He is fully capable of expressing Himself to you as an individual if that is what He wants to do. I would think He is powerful enough to do that. So it was not a dream; you had a very real spiritual experience.


            Oh, it was --


And was that the end of it?


            No, that was not the end.


That is not the end? I am glad we are recording this.




I am going to have to listen to this again.


That was not the end. After that I came out and, you know, that -- the giant church that I saw before was there. And this person, the same person that was singing, began to lead me to a house. It was, like, a white house.


I am sorry. Did you say -- what di- -- would you repeat that, please? My mind wandered.


OK, after I met with this person, then I was back in the place with the giant, white church. And the person that was singing the song to me began to lead me to this white house. It was, like, a little, white house. It was, kind of, raggedy looking, but it was white. And it was almost, like, you know, a couple of hundred yards behind this big church, you know, out in, like, the field. And as I went in there, the -- whoever was leading me did not come in there with me. I went in, and there was these two black men, the same two black, African men that I had seen      when I came down into the garage initially. At that point, I began, you know, to speak with them, and, you know, they seemed like they were really, like -- how would I describe them?




            Yeah, a good word. And, you know, one of them pulled a gun on me, OK, so the guy had the gun, and I took the gun out of his hand. And I had the gun in my hand, and then -- [?because?] I guess, I am used to dealing with -- it is almost like I was accustomed to dealing with somebody having a gun on me, and I was talking to him. And I just went, and I took the gun out of his hand. I had it in my hand, but then he would reach for different things. Like, he went to another room, almost around the corner because the house was not that big, but he would, like, reach under, say, the kitchen sink and pull something out and act  like it was a gun and pull it on me, almost daring me to shoot him. But, you   know, having the reflexes to recognize it was not a gun, you know, I did not do that, and then he kept -- he did this two or three times, and, like, one time he had a screwdriver in his hand, and I began to realize, you know, he did not have a gun. I put the gun away in, you know, the small of my back, and I began to talk to him. And as I talked to him, you know, I was getting the feeling that they were not too happy with -- you know, with God or the condition of the church, and that is when we went into another room, and I sat down on this bench or table type thing that had a wet blanket down on it.




Well, I believe that this building behind the New Jerusalem is the church as it exists in the earth today, which is one step above the church which was typified by the people dancing in a 10-by-10 square that had some life of it. Now that church typified by the people doing the line dance, that could be the kingdom church where they are being taught sonship. You know, have you heard of the doctrine of sonship?




And I consider the kingdom church a combination of the believers who are teaching or being taught sonship and reconciliation. Have you heard of that term, reconciliation? Have you heard of that term?


            [?You reconcile unto?] Christ.


Right. Well, they call it ultimate reconciliation, OK, and there is a problem with that doctrine, but that seems to be the root by which God is taking the church, sonship and ultimate reconciliation. I preached it for about six months, and the Lord showed me the error in it and gave me what I believe to be the truth upon which the error was based, OK. So anyone -- if anyone says to me, "Do you believe in reconciliation?" people who are into this, I will tell them I do not believe in ultimate reconciliation, but I do believe in the reconciliation of the all, the reconciliation of the whole creation, but not the way that it is being preached by the ultimate reconciliationists. I believe they have a serious error there, OK, so just that you know what I am talking about.


So we have -- now this is the third manifestation or third grade of the church that we are seeing in your dream. The first grade was the carnal church, OK. That was under judgment, was -- that was being prepared for judgment. Then we saw the kingdom church, sonship and reconciliation dancing in the grass, some signs of life, and now you are being taken into a third grade of the developing church, OK. And the name that the Lord has given me for this third grade is perfection. He is raising up preachers and teachers in this hour to teach the doctrine of perfection, how human beings, fallen human beings become perfected, OK, and that is the doctrine that is coming forth here.


So this small church, I believe it typify -- and it was small because there are not many teaching it in this hour. Eventually, it will spread, but it is starting as every new level of doctrine comes out, starts with a small root, so there is only a few in this hour that God is giving this doctrine to. He said, if the Lord permit -- Paul said, "If the Lord permit, let us go on to perfection," so you -- no human being, no believer can come into the training and the teaching that is necessary for perfection unless God specifically says, "This man can enter into this teaching and this training."


So in this hour, it is few, and the people who are in this program are still spiritual criminals. The -- all of fallen humanity is a spiritual criminal. We are all spiritual criminals, mentally ill, retarded spiritual criminals, all of us. So what God is saying to you -- He is saying to you do not -- He is saying "Beware," OK. "As I call you to have fellowship with believers that are in this lofty, high doctrine, do not think that that other side to them it does not exist because it is still there." That is what He is telling you, OK. So whoever He is going to be bringing you to meet, you know, I hope it is not me that pulls a gun on. I pretty much have my carnal mind under control, you know, pretty much, but I am a fallen person, you know. That means anything could happen. But, as I said, I am -- even if I do slip, you know, I am right there, and I see it right away, you know. My fallen humanity comes up; I see it right away. And I am living this life to the best of my ability. If I have sinned against you, I will go to you, and I will tell you I am sorry, you know, so I pretty much have it under control, as far as I know.


But you are going to be meeting other people, you know, maybe not here, you know, maybe in New Jersey. I do not know, but you are going to be meeting people that are going to be moving in this third grade of the maturing process of Christ, and the Lord is telling you, "Beware, their carnal side still exists. They are still spiritual criminals. They are still in darkness in many areas." "As the light starts to shine in the darkness," Paul tells us, but for the light to be shining in the darkness, that means there is still darkness present, OK. And the carnal mind is criminal, and one of the things that we go through in the ministry here is that we are continuously exposing the carnal mind. I even have a sign. I just do not feel like getting up right now.


            I saw it [CROSSTALK]


Did you see my sign? OK, because we try -- you know, there is never any condemnation here, but the carnal mind has to be exposed, so -- and people's feelings get hurt, you know, and the Lord has said that nothing should be in secret. Everything should be upfront, so someone had the idea to make up this sign, and we, sort of, make light of it, you know. If someone is being very carnal, I just hold up the sign.


            Oh, no. [INAUDIBLE]


Your carnal mind is manifesting, you know.




Because we have a lot -- we have some measure of body ministry in the group because everybody is being trained to be a spiritual person and to implement the mind of Christ in their own life. So I will fre- -- everybody has an opportunity to talk, whether it is to ask questions or to give answers or whether it is to -- if there is a -- sometimes the Lord just gives us a spiritual experience in the meeting, and everyone is encouraged to participate with the understanding that if their carnal mind manifests, it is going to be exposed. So it is a difficult ministry. You know, the people here are very brave. I tell them all the time they are very brave, you know, and that is how I do it, to make light out of it; I just hold the sign up.




And we all laugh. Everybody is pretty good, you know, a bunch of good soldiers in the group, you know. So that is how I see that house, OK, and you were in the house, so you are called to the third grade of education in Christ, and it is sti- -- and that Adam, OK, the carnal mind and Satan which is in the fallen Adam, is still very present there, and do not be deceived, God is saying. He will try to kill you because everybody in whom Christ begins to be formed becomes a target for the carnal mind. Now first off you become a target for your own carnal mind. The first manifestation of the carnal mind to try to kill you will be your -- Satan will stir up your own carnal mind. If you can get the person to say, "This is not true," OK, and doubt and unbelief, if you can get the person that is called to this doctrine for -- I will put it in the context of me because I do not know what God has for you, you know. Maybe there is someone else preaching the same thing. I really do not know, OK. But if it is me, he will try to divide you for me; he will try to get you mad at me; he will give you thoughts in your mind that will think evil of me. It will produce -- your carnal mind will produce misunderstanding of words that I say, misunderstanding of my motives for saying what I say, OK, et cetera.


Now if you are strong enough in Christ to overcome this, OK -- and how do you overcome it? Let me just give you some pointers while we are at it, OK. How do you overcome it? I tell everybody this. Before I talk to anybody about anything, before I let myself get mad or get into a controversy, I go before the Lord, and I say, "Father, am I seeing this correctly? Did I hear correctly? Let Your eyes be my eyes. Let Your ears be my ears. Do not let the carnal mind destroy me," OK. And the Lord has been very faithful to me. Then if it turns out that that person really did manifest their carnal mind towards me or say something unkind or do something wrong, then I pray. You have to forgive them, and you say, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" You know, "How do we bring peace and reconciliation out of this? How do we resolve this matter?" Because this is how the disciples of Christ are going to be known, that they are going to love one another. Now there is going to be problems. There is going to be divisions. There is going to be controversies, but we are supposed to be judging angels, you know. We are supposed to be able to get together and sit down and, with the Lord in the midst of us, we are supposed to be able to resolve any problem. If everybody is submitted to Christ, there is no problem that is not solvable, OK. It is only the pride of man that brings division.


So if you are strong enough in Christ to take authority over your own carnal mind, OK, and not let him destroy what God has brought you to, then the next thing that happens is someone else's carnal mind is going to come against you, OK. They are going to be whispering to you. They are going to be gossiping. They are going to be sowing seeds of discord. They are going to be lying to you. However it manifests, Satan would rather -- well, if he could get you out, OK -- and I am -- when I say the ministry, I do not mean Living Epistles. I mean wherever this ministry of Christ is manifesting. If Satan can get you away from it, he will do it, but he is not fooling because this is the beginning. This spiritual ministry called perfection, it is the beginning of the real thing. I just heard it on a message. I was listening to it today. I listen to my own messages.


Satan, he does not really mind if you become a Christian, does not really mind too much if you get healed. Even if you get a demon cast out, it does not bother him too much because he is still the lord of your life, OK. But when you enter into the ministry that teaches you how to kill your carnal mind, he starts to get nervous because we are talking about his death, and he is not playing, and it is out-and-out warfare. So wherever he can stir up a carnal mind to come against you, it is coming against you, and that was the gun, and that was the screwdriver. He is going to try and destroy your life in Christ. He will stop short of nothing. He can bring division between friends, as you found out. He can bring division into families, OK, and you really -- you just have to know how to deal with him, or he is just going to knock you right out, and that is pretty much what we teach here. He is just going to knock you right out. We cannot see him. He is an invisible enemy. He is in your own mind. You have to be able to recognize the man of sin in your own mind. You have to be able to tell where the thought came from. Did it come from Christ, or did it come from your carnal mind?


And I do not want to get too off the path again, but I will tell this, that the Lord has revealed to us that Satan has two major weapons that he uses to bring down believers. The first weapon is pleasure. Usually, that only works on younger believers. He promises you pleasure if you sin, OK. Most people that get to where we are, are not going to be trapped by that, so when he realizes you are not going to be trapped by that, he goes to pain, OK. Satan is a controlling force. He wants to control us. He wants the use of our mind, and if he has the use of our mind, he then has the use of our mouth and our body, OK. So he will use pain; he will use the threat of pain. If you do not do this, I will cause you pain.


Let me give you an example. OK, he may try to keep you out of meetings, out of a local church that God put you in, by making you sick. If you go to church, I am going to make you sick. I know s- -- I know a couple of people right now whose women whose husbands are not saved, and Satan is using their husband. If you go to church, I am going to torment you. You are going to lose the peace in the family, going to lose your peace in the household. He uses pain, discomfort, trouble in your life. You may not hear the words, but he is going to come to you. He is going to say, "If you dare to pursue this path that the Lord is leaving -- leading you on, I am going to bring turmoil into your life. I am going to bring conflict in" -- well, you had it the --




-- the whole week before you came here. I am going to bring your cars. I am going to break your motorcycle. I am going to -- if I can, I am going to bring sickness into your life. I am going to bring bickering and conflict into your life.




OK, so you have to learn how to fight this spiritual warfare, and it is a war. It is a very real war. It goes on for long periods of time, and the message that came out last night, it was really good. And, basically, what it was saying was that I do not know how I could go through all that I have been through without the revelation that God is in it all, that I am ascending in Christ, that this wicked, criminal mind that exists in men is trying to stop me from ascending in Christ. He is spiritual gravity; as I am a spaceship that is trying to go up, he is trying to drag be down. And we are told -- I believe it is in either Ephesians or Colossians. Paul says, "And when He ascended on high, He took captivity captive." He grabbed hold of that fallen mind of man, Jesus, of course, that was trying to drag Him down, and He captured the one who was trying to capture Him and dragged him up to the heavenlies. And that is what we are being challenged to do. As Christ is raised from the dead in our mind, God is challenging us to lay hold of our own soul, which is the wicked one, and drag him up, OK. So that is the battle. Are we going to drag our soul up, or is he going to drag us down?


And as soon as you start to show victory over your own soul, God is going to attach people to you. You know the faithful one he gives 10 cities to? Jesus is talking about human beings. As soon as you have enough doing over your carnal mind and Jesus makes a judgment that you can carry someone else, you are going to find someone else in your life that you are going to be a spiritual friend to, praying with them, counseling them, teaching them, whatever, OK. And they are going -- Christ in them is going to be laying hold of you because the people that He is going to send to you are people who are in a condition at that moment. They do not stay that way forever, but their condition at that moment is that if you are not in their life, their carnal mind would snuff out the Christ in them.


And the stronger you get, the more people He gives you, so the war -- at this point, I just know that the war goes on until you stand up, yeah, because I look -- you know, I just look at these last -- well, my whole life, you know, but it just -- it does not go away, but what is happening now -- I do not want to discourage you, OK. You get competent at fighting this war, OK. You learn how to do it. You learn all the little tricks, you know, and you get stronger, and so when the battle comes, you do not get hurt that badly. You just take it; you just accept it; you endure. You know, in the Book of Revelation, the Book of Revelation speaks about the patience of the saints, you know. What that really means is the endurance of the saints. You build up endurance, just as if you physically exercise yourself.




You build up your endurance. You get stronger, and you get stronger, so even though the battle is raging, you are going to find that you do not get hurt that bad. And what has been on me lately is that -- is the three Hebrew children in the fire. I am just in the fire continuously, but it is, you know, does not -- it is bothering me. Le- -- every once in a while, I flip out, but God lets all this pressure come on me, and I flip out. And then once I take the victory, the -- that same experience would not make me flip out anymore. I just see my muscles growing. I s- -- I am ascending, and I see it. I see the spiritual battles that I am in. I would have never survived six months ago, so that is what keeps me doing.


And Paul says, "Endure hardness like a good soldier." I mean, it is all in the Scripture. You do not hear it being preached, but it is all there. It is a battle. It is a battle of long duration, OK, but we can do all things in Christ. We cannot fail. If we submit ourselves to God and submit ourselves to instruction, OK, we will overcome. We can be cast down, but we cannot be destroyed. We can be temporarily overcome until we rally, until we find the technique of how to prevail in this particular challenge, and this is how we are going to ascend. You know, I used to say to the Lord, "How is this full stature coming to pass? Will I wake up one morning -- how will I know I am in full stature? Will I wake up one morning and be in full stature?" And the Lord said to me, "Attaining to full stature is not a rapture." He said, "You have rejected the concept of your body being raptured, and now you are expecting your mind to be raptured. It is not a rapture. It is an overcoming. It is a little by little. It is a step at a time. It is a battle at a time. You get higher and higher and higher."


So this is what the Lord is saying to you, and it is really important that you be prepared for it. As He calls you into this high place, carnal minds are going to rise up and try to stop you and without mercy. [AUDIO CUTS OUT]


"It is not a rapture. It is an overcoming. It is a little by little, a step at a time. It is a battle at a time. You get higher and higher and higher." So this is what the Lord is saying to you, and it is really important that you be prepared [AUDIO CUTS OUT]. As He calls you into this high place, carnal minds are going to rise up [AUDIO CUTS OUT] to stop you and without mercy. So your weapons are the love of God, forgiveness of sins; pray for those that hate you, or, "Bless those that hate you. Pray for those who despitefully use you." Make peace to the fullest [AUDIO CUTS OUT] with all men. If you have sinned against somebody, run to them to tell them you are sorry, and make it right because Satan will get in there [AUDIO CUTS OUT] make peace with your adversary, or you shall pay every penny that you owe. It is in one of the Gospels. Make peace with your adversary. Now that does not mean that you compromise righteousness. It does not mean that you compromise -- you never compromise righteousness, but if it is not a question of righteousness, Paul says, "Can you not suffer the loss?" Give it up. Submit yourself one to another. Make peace. Live in peace.


OK, and that is your weapon. If you live your life according to the instructions of our Lord, that is your armor, you see. A carnal mind, he can only get you if you are yielding to your pride, if you are yielding to your envy, if you are yielding to any form of wickedness in yourself. It is a door that is wide open. You -- he is going to get you, only temporarily, not -- I do not mean to imply that you cannot recover from it, but that is your open door. And on the contrary, your armor is the love of God and walking in the instruction of our Lord. You know, he will never get you, you know. If you mess up, as I told you earlier, if envy manifests in your heart, you know, just confess it. if the other person does not know that it is happened, well, then there is really no reason to tell them. You just confess it to God. If you have hurt somebody, then you have to go and confess your sin to them and apologize, and that is the unbeatable weapon, OK. That brings forth the truth of the Scripture, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper if you are walking in the love of God," and so that is what that part of the dream means.


Satan is not fooling with people who are starting to kill their carnal mind. You see, our carnal mind, it has to be dismantled. It is literally being killed a piece at a time. As God reveals our sin to us, we have to be in an ongoing attitude repentance, as He shows us our sins. It is very nice to say, "Well, I repent of witchcraft. Well, I repent of pride," you know. It does not mean a thing, but when the Lord comes to you either personally or through another person and says to you, "What you just said, the way you just dealt with that problem, the spirit behind it was pride. You did not fight this battle in Christ. Pride defended you, and you need to confess that as sin. You need to confess it as sin quickly, OK, otherwise judgments for pride will fall upon you."


So it is really, you know, a glorious thing that God is inviting you to this, but there is a lot to know, and -- but that is the key, you know, and the carnal mind is not fooling. He will kill you if -- he will knock you out if he can, and he will stop at anything, you know. Now, of course, fear is never of God, but be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.


            It was funny because I was not really ever afraid he -- when he had the gun. You know, I just --


Well, praise God.


            -- got it out of his hand --




            -- and --


So you wrestled it away from him, that is good.


            I just took it.


Now so there were two men. Well, maybe the first man typified your own carnal mind, and you got the gun away from him. That would mean that you are t- -- you are going to take dominion over your own carnal mind, and the second guy had a screwdriver, and what happened with that?


            Yeah, the -- actually, the first guy, after I took the gun away from him, he went into another room, almost like a kitchen or something, and went under the cupboards and acted like he was going to pull another gun and turned around like he had a gun in his hand, but really it was just a little screwdriver. But the way he was pointing it at me was that, say, if I was in a situation where I had my gun out and somebody turned around, I might have made the mistake of shooting him and killing him, you know, thinking that it was a gun.


I see.


            But I recognized that it was -- that he, in actuality, did not have a weapon, and I -- you know, I did not shoot him, and then after I realized he did not, then I just stuck the gun, you know, in the small of my back there, and then I began to speak with them and, you know, say, "Well, let me tell you what" -- well, first we went in another room, and then I sat down --


Yeah, can I interrupt you for a minute?




You know what this says to me? It says to me that the first man was your own carnal mind. He had a gun. He really had the power to destroy you, but once you take dominion over your own carnal mind, no one else's carnal mind can really bring you down. We are a fif- -- we have a fifth column within us. Our only true enemy is the enemy that is in our mind. The only thing someone else could do to you or someone else's carnal mind can do to you is seduce you to sin with your own carnal mind. So as soon as you took the gun away from your own carnal mind, the carnal minds of the other men became, like, almost a toy screwdriver, OK. And then you started ministering to this man, so once you take dominion over your own carnal mind, you are going to be ministering to all of these carnally minded people who will try to kill you. For all of the good you do to them, many of them, their carnal minds will try to kill you, but that is the ministry of the sons. That is the two-witness company coming right to you.


            So then as I went to this other room, I went to sit down on this table. I actually sat on, like, a wet blanket, and I felt the wetness, and I -- but I smelled urine, and then I just got up, and I realized, you know, it was, kind of, like, a dirty house, but I did not make a big deal out of it. I just moved over and sat down, and I said, "Well, let me tell you what I know about God," and then as I began to speak with them, then I saw the -- like, the door flash, where the women were, and something in my mind said -- you know, I told them. I said, "I do not have much time," and then I began to speak a little bit more, and then, all of a sudden, I began to, like, almost, like, spin, and I went back to where the --


My mind blanked out. Could you go back to after you sat on the wet blanket, please?


            OK. After I sat on the wet blanket, I felt wetness. I mean, I actually felt it, and then I smelled urine, and then -- but I realized, you know, the house was dirty. I -- it was almost, like, you know, something dirty in the house, but I just -- I did not make a big deal out of it. I just got up, and I moved over, and I guess so as not to offend them or whatever, but then I said, "Well, you know, let me tell you what I know about God." I began to speak with them and minister, and   then the thought -- you know, I saw the door where the women were, kind of, flashed up, and then I said, "I do not have much time," and I began to speak with them again. And then, next thing you know, I just began to, like, spin, and I went back through where the women were, you know, the 15, 20 women, through that, and I went back through the hallway. And then I came out of it; I woke up. And then, a minute later, the alarm went off, and after I shut it off, I went, and I sat down, and I realized what I had just experienced and just -- after I realized where the Lord just took me and what I had just experienced, I just began to tear. And because it was, you know, so beautiful and  overwhelming that it just -- you know, tears just started coming out of my eyes, and, you know, it lasted, like, you know, like, 20 minutes, 25 minutes maybe, just crying. I was just -- and, for me, it was a humbling experience. Like I said, it is been -- you know, I do not think I really ever cried, my -- in my whole, like, adulthood, you know. I am only 30, so you are talking about since I was about 18 or 19, you know, really ever cried, you know, and -- but that was  it.


Well, the wet blanket, now a blanket is a covering, is a protection, and this was a blanket with -- that was steeped in dirt, OK. You said it was urine, so I would say it was the covering of the carnal mind, and it was on the floor, and you were sitting on it, so --


            It was on, like, a bench or something --


A bench.


            -- where I went to sit. It was --




-- folded up, and I accidentally -- you know, like I sat down. Like, say if [INAUDIBLE] was here, I sat on it like that, and then I realized it was wet and got up.




            And that is when I felt the wetness, and I smelled the urine, so I just, you know --


Right, so you went down to a lower level to minister to carnal men, and you were touched by their filth, OK. Now we will be touched by their filth. Do you know that passage in the Scripture? I think it is in Ephesians. It could be in Colossians. I get those two books mixed up. Where Paul says, "Touch not; taste not. Why are you subject to -- handle not. Why are you subject to [UNINTELLIGIBLE]." We looked up all those words in the Greek, and we found out that what he was really talking about was people's sin, and you may know that most people, even believers, when they see obvious sin on somebody, they do not want to touch it. They are really, on some level, afraid of contamination. You go into any carnal church, and if someone walks in without shoes on, raggedy, dirty, nobody wants to even talk to the person.  They are re- -- and I believe that the root of it is -- the root of is -- of it is fear, that this -- it will rub off on them. If drug addicts or alcoholics come in, they will give them money, but [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- but they do not really want that close contact with them, and the root of it really is fear that it is going to rub off on them. That is my strong opinion. I know it is a fact that the average Christian will give money if they have it, but they do not want that one-on-one ministry. That is -- I pretty -- think pretty much a fact. My opinion is that it is an -- it is a sometimes recognized and sometimes unrecognized fear that it could happen to them. And that fear is not foundless because --




-- the truth of the matter is that for carnal people, for people who do not have Christ -- can you --




James, honey, would you hold my hand sweetheart? I just want to pray. Is it all right if I pray for him?






OK. How are you James? OK. I just bless you, and I ask that the Lord help you to help us bring this doctrine forth because mommy and daddy and [?Ronda?Rhonda?] need to hear it, so we just pray that the Lord keep you busy. OK? Thank you. He is cute. What was I saying? What was I talking about?


            About people --




            People [CROSSTALK]


            -- touching [CROSSTALK]


Yes, so -- and in the natural, human beings are afraid of people that are in a low spiritual realm. Whether they confess it or not, they are afraid they are going to get dragged down, and there is a foundation for that belief because sin is -- has a grav- -- a spiritual gravitational pull, and it pulls you down, and most people know it on some level. Some people know it on a conscious level. You will tell your children; you will tell your friends; you will tell yourself, you know, "Do not associate with that kind of person." The Bible clearly says, "Do not fellowship with an angry man; you will become angry." Sin is contagious, so it is not foundless to stay away from people like that. But Paul is saying, if you have Christ in you, do not be afraid to get close; do not be afraid to touch, spiritually. Do not be able -- do not be afraid of having your soul touch their soul because although sin has a gravitational pull -- and there has been great literature written about it, you know, of people who have been pulled down. They have associated with people with reprobate minds, and they have been pulled down into that quicksand. But if it is Christ in you and if it is Christ sending you to that person -- you see, even if you have Christ in you, if your pride has sent you to minister to that person, you are probably going to go down. You have to have Christ in you, and it must be Christ sending you. You must be sent to that person. No matter how hard they try, they will not bring you down, but you will bring them up. And this is the aspect of the two witness company and eventually the sons. We are sent to the reprobate of society, and we shall not be destroyed, but they shall be saved.


OK, so he is saying to the people, Paul, "Do not be afraid to let your soul touch the souls of people who are spiritually polluted." We have a world full of people that have spiritual leprosy, and the law says do not touch the leper, but, in Christ, we can touch the leper, with a heart with the love of Christ, if you are sent to the person. If you are not sent, you could get creamed. You have to go on assignment, OK, and you will not be destroyed. Now just another few words on that, I have been moving in this ministry for a couple of years now, and it is a very -- well, for me, it has been a very emotional experience because God has let people's sin touch me. I feel their sins in my emotions, and when it first started happening to me, I was very distressed. I did not understand it. This is my whole testimony, that what I am teaching now nobody was there to teach me. I went the hard way, and now I am here. I have all these messages, and I am here personally to minister to whoever God sends to me, but it was a very rough walk for me because there was no one to explain this to me, and I feel people's sins, and they register in my mind as my sin.


And I would say to the Lord, "Boy, this is terrible," because I am all into confessing my sins, you know. Oh, my God, you know. Just for example, there is suicide passing through my mind, or this is passing through my mind; envy is passing through my mind. Lord, I cannot bear it. Where is this coming from? You know, I thought I was over that years ago. And as He taught me, I found out that I feel other people's sins, and when I -- as He trained me for this ministry, I now know that if I ward that thing off, if I, like, pick up a spiritual stick and beat it to death, OK, I am going to help that other person come up out of it. If I let their sin seduce me, if I agree with it, then that person will be pulling me down. But because of the preparation that comes from what we have recently talked about, you judging yourself and recognizing sin in your mind the second it manifests, when you beat it down, it is working to bring that person out from under the dominion of that sin.


And that is what Paul is talking about in those verses, so those who are called to the two-witness company, when you are ready, the Lord is going to have personal, one-on-one ministry to the spiritual leper. That is what this is all about, OK, for people who cannot be helped by walking into a traditional church service. A lot of people walk into a traditional church service, and they get touched, and they are OK, but there is a whole world full of people out there who would never make it, who would never have the discipline to go to two, three, four services a week, to read the Bible. And these are the people that the Lord is reaching for. He talks -- He describes them in the Scripture as those who are in prison, spiritual prison, the captive. The streets are full of them, you know, and you look at the church today, and I am not criticizing them, but the church are packed with nice people who are dressed nice with decent clothes, you know, have decent jobs, and they go to church every Sunday, and they sing, and they listen to a message, and then maybe they will go out and they will give somebody a [?track?], but the power that is on the [?track?] is limited. So God, in this hour, is raising up a company. He is sanctifying us. He is making us holy. He is building armor on us, and He is sending us to the people who cannot be helped by the present anointing which is in the church. OK. And that is what this is all about, and in or- -- part of your protection, to not be dragged down when you touch this, is the judging of your own sin and the holiness that is being built in you as Christ ascends in you.


Now I want to share a testimony with you. Do you recall, a couple of years ago, the scandal that concerned Covenant House with that priest who was accused of molesting a young homosexual prostitute that came into Covenant House? The Lord told me that this priest -- I know there was several boys that came forward that accused him of it, but the Lord told me that the priest started out with a really sincere heart and that that man was seduced by the highly demonized young men that came into his home, severely demonized young men, homosexual prostitutes, loaded with sin, with spiritual gravity, OK. And when you have a home and a house full of people that are loaded -- this sin, it has substance to it, going back to the beginning of our conversation. It is real, and when you have a house full of 10, 20, 30 highly demonized people, they join together, and it becomes a force, and it came against this man who did not have Christ. He was just -- you know, just a carnal man, and he yielded to it, and his -- you know, he was really ruined.


So, see, the whole world knows that. Stay away from people like that they will tell you. Stay away from people like that. But when it is really Christ in you and He has genuinely given you the assignment, that person will get another chance at life that they would have never had if you did not lay down your life for them, and that is what you are being called to. Yeah, it is glorious, very exciting, yeah.


[INAUDIBLE] but that, you know -- that experience [UNINTELLIGIBLE] I have had quite a few, and that just seemed to top all that I had ever, you know, experienced, and, I mean, like I said, I have been to the other side of the universe and back. This was just -- you know, it was awesome, but, you know, praise God. Thank you for shedding some light on that.


You are very welcome, [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. You are very welcome. So I offer you our library. You know, you can just borrow the messages and return them if you want. You know, you do not have to buy them or anything. I am -- I suggest that you start to dig in. You have got a lot of work to do.




Yeah. So these messages, they do several things. They are more than instruction. There is an anointing on the messages that, as I said earlier, if you have not -- if the Word of God is not yet engrafted in you, that I would assume that that will re- -- if God called you to this, I would assume that He has every intention of engrafting the Word to you. If the Word is already engrafted, it will build Christ in you. He will increase in you, and knowledge is a part of it. I want to make it clear to you that there is nothing magical about the doctrine, that all the power is in the Christ that is being formed in you and that the doctrine, it is just a food that is giving -- that is given to you to help Him to grow, OK, and that this doctrine has to be internalized in you, OK.




Oh. Is that [?his tie?]? OK. This doctrine has to be internalized in you, OK. It is a weapon that is killing your carnal mind, but there is nothing magical. Be careful you do not start idolizing the doctrine, OK. It is the Christ that is coming forth in you, and it has got to become your doctrine. It has got to grow in you. You have got to eat it. You have got to digest it, and then it has got to come forth out of you as your own expression of the truth in God. So this doctrine is just a means to an end, but the end of everything is Christ in you, the hope of glory. And I think He is raising up three other sons here. That is what all that -- this [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- you will not believe what I have been through this week.




So it is very exciting.


            [INAUDIBLE] come back to the church.


She does not want you back?


I do not believe so. I really do not because -- just by the things that have been happening, by the report Ron has been given.


Most Christians think that persecution is physical persecution, being put out of the church. Well, that could be persecution, OK, but there is also spiritual persecution, which is another way of saying the punishment that I was speaking about earlier. When God sends you on specific assignments to minister to people, there will be punishment to your emotions and to your soul, and it could be that you just find sitting in that carnal service very painful, that you find listening to what you know is false doctrine very painful. It was extremely painful for me during that convention because the Spirit of God was stirring up in me, and I knew that I was supposed to be ministering seven days there. I knew it. God told me the speaker cancelled out, and I was there, and I knew that I was the replacement for the speaker. And I kept being asked to sit down, and I kept being hindered and pressed back, and it was a pain to me. It was painful to listen to an unanointed message when I knew that my heart was burning with the Word of God for the people, but I sat there, and it was painful. It was just one night I could not bear it, and I left early. And I have been in churches. I have been sent to churches where the doctrine has been oppressive to me, and that is spiritual persecution, yeah.


Let me give you some examples of the difficult situations the Lord has put me in. I spent many years where I was severely -- I was dying, actually. It took the Lord 14 years, from the time I came into the church, to heal me. I was healed very slowly, but I was pretty bad, and there are -- there is a doctrine on Long Island. I do not know about where you come from, that you pray for somebody once, and maybe you pray for them twice, and if they are not healed, there is something wrong with their faith, and you, therefore, do not pray for them again. So the Lord sent me into a church where the pastor believed that, and he gave the man a word of knowledge. And I w- -- in those days -- because I am pretty much healed, OK. I do not have these problems anymore, but in those days, every time a word of knowledge came forth, I would think it was for me. Most of the time it was for me, there was so many things wrong with me, but I would always look around the church because I just had a revelation. Well, it looks really strange that I am up there on the prayer line every time a word of knowledge comes forth, and maybe it is just my desperation, you know, wanting to be healed.


So I was in this habit of I would look around to see. If no one else answered, I would go up. So the Lord gave this pastor a word of knowledge about an infirmity that I had, and I went up, OK. And at that time, I had a chronic inner-ear infection, OK, that I had lived with for a couple of years, and I sat down. The next service was another word of knowledge, and it fitted me, and I looked around, and no one was going up, so I went up. This happened four services in a row. I want to tell you this man was getting very upset. I was the only one that went up, so that meant either his word of knowledge was a false word of knowledge, or God was blowing a hole in his doctrine because I went up four services in a row. There must be something wrong with me that I need prayer four services in a row. That is spiritual persecution. The man was genuinely upset with me. He did not know what to do. He was in a quandary. Either he was a false prophet, or there was something wrong with me. All he could see was that I was making him uncomfortable. That is spiritual persecution.


This very same pastor was teaching one night in a home Bible study that there is no such thing as false tongues. Well, I had false tongues. When I came to the Lord, I had false everything. I had [?to get?] -- I had false tongues; I had false prophecy; I had false everything. I had to get delivered from all that, and as soon as I heard it coming out of his mouth, I felt the Lord stirring inside of me, and I said, "No, Lord, you do not want me to contradict this man in his own Bible study. Lord, you really do not want me to do that," and the Lord will put pressure on you. I do not know whether you ever ex- -- you may have experienced that He puts pressure on you, and I knew He wanted me to do it. So I raised my hand, and I said, "Brother Pastor, I had false tongues," and I gave my testimony, which ended with glory to God. I said I got delivered, you know. His face got so red. I thought he was going to explode, and he started to rebuke me in front of the whole congregation and tell me that, "I am trying to encourage these people to receive the Holy Ghost, and you are putting fear on them." And at that point, the anointing was very strong on me, and I said, "But it happened to me. It happened to me. You cannot say it is not possible. It happened to me, and the bottom line is that there is always deliverance." But he was so upset he did not talk to me for quite a while.


This is -- to me, this is real persecution, and when God says you have to stay in the church because I have you there as a witness to My truth, and it is pain- -- it is emotionally painful, but you get used to it. You learn how to deal with it, and, again, your weapons are forgiveness, forgiveness of their sins against you because they start to think evil of you, OK, and that you are praying for them out of a pure heart, not -- your prayers should not be to defend yourself, OK. Christ has to be your defense. You have to be very careful that your motives are not self-serving but that your only motive is that Christ has sent you to do this job. Because as soon as there is something in it for you, you are in sin; that is the sin of pride. So you have to empty yourself out. Your only motive has to be that God has told you to do this, and you will find that carnal men cannot believe that what you are doing, whatever it is that you are doing, that God has told you to do it. They cannot believe it because their hearts are carnal, and they cannot imagine leading that measure of a sacrificial life. They simply cannot believe it. So this is the true persecution, when you are standing and telling the truth.


You know, this same man, he came under heavy judgment, this same man. I do not know what your experience with deliverance is, but I spent five years casting demons out, and my experience was that it is very common when demons are cast out, that there is an expulsion of physical matter. It could be vomiting. It could be --




-- mucus, anything like that. So I was in -- we -- it is common to out to the diner, you know, after church, so I was going to this man's church. When the Lord first pulled me out of the place where I was trained, for about two years, He had me going from church to church as this kind of a witness, persecute -- thrown -- I was thrown out of every one of those churches.




Yeah, I was thrown out of every one of those churches, OK. So I was in this man's church, and that particular night several of my friends that I had gone to the -- my training church with, who also believed in this form of deliverance, had come to the service with me, and we were sitting in the diner. And this pastor came over because he saw a whole bunch of new people, so he thought he would fellowship, and he said, "Where are you all from?" And we named the church, and he got all upset, went into the men's room, came back with a paper towel and stood over our table and started bouncing the paper towel. "All right, who is next? Who is next? Who is going to vomit next?" It was horrible. One of my friends who was sitting next to me said to him, "I rebuke you," and he stood there and said, "I would never let anyone spit up in a napkin in my church." That is what he said, yeah, and that was Thursday night. Sunday morning, two rows from the front was a retarded adult, and as this man preached, this retarded adult started to cough. And he coughed, and he coughed, and he took out his tissue, and he spit in the tissue, and he put it under the seat, and there are about five tissues under the seat. And I am watching this. That man was flipping out in the pulpit, and he was looking right at me, and he called the usher to remove the man to the back of the church. And the man got insulted, and he left. And I just -- I do not know what God is doing with him, but the man was under heavy judgment, you know, and he failed every test. So -- but that is the true persecution. We have to stand for righteousness.


And I -- the -- in that particular church, God showed me a woman that was obviously under a curse of incest. I had spoken to her. I knew her. It was very obvious to me, and I felt, at one point, that the Lord opened the door for me to tell her, and she got so upset she complained to the pastor. He called me in, and he told me I could not do that in his church, you know. So I told him I had to serve God, you know, and that if the Lord told me to do it and he did not want me to do it, I would have to leave. Because through this whole two years, I always honored the head of the house. You know, it is their church. You cannot go over their head.


So, again, this very same man, it was a Sunday service, and the Lord spoke to me and He said, "You see that man sitting across the aisle from you, I want you to anoint him for ministry." Now I want to tell you I have never, ever heard of anyone doing that except the pastor, and I sat in my seat, and I said I do not know who said that to me, but there is no way I am standing up and anointing that man for ministry. It is that pastor's house, and my God would not ask me to do something out of order. I said, "Lord, if by any chance that was You -- because it really did sound like Your voice. If by any chance that was You, You have to give me the go-ahead from that man in the pulpit, or I am not moving, and I do not like the ministry that You keep sending me to. I do not like it."


Well, as the last word was out of my mouth, he said, "Now, look, this is your church too. We have body ministry here. All you have to do is raise your hand, and I will call on you, and you can minister." Well, as the last word was out of his mouth, I was on my feet, and he looked up, and he was shocked that I was standing there, and he just indicated to go ahead. I guess, he thought I had a psalm or a prayer or a song, and I swung around, and I laid hands on that man, and I anointed him for ministry. I thought he was going to fall out of the pulpit, so God really tested him severely, and he did not -- I do not know. He has still got a church, you know.


He had a powerful prophecy one day. This man moved in the word of knowledge every service, and this one Sunday he was going through the congregation, pointing out people, so if he pointed to you, you were supposed to go to the front of the church. And there was a whole crowd; I was one of them, and he had a prophecy for everybody. And I was the only one standing in the front of the chur- -- I am telling you this is embarrassing. I was the only one standing in the front of the church, and he had nothing for me, and he was embarrassed, and I knew he was just wishing that I would sit down, but I knew that I had something for him, you see. But he could not imagine that someone in the congregation could have any form of authority.


You see, the ministry in effect right now, they are stumbling. You see, I am a minister, you know. Sometimes when I talk like this, I feel like what is wrong with me? I am a minister here, but I have a revelation, that you could be in my congregation and that God could be speaking to me through you. The only thing I tell everybody is that I have the option to try the spirit. If I do not think it is Christ, you have to sit down. I will take that option, but anybody that has anything to say or any form of ministry, I will let you do it, but if I perceive it is a wrong spirit, I will ask you to sit down. That is my stand. I am a new -- I consider myself a new kind of minister, I guess. I am the new or the true fivefold ministry because sometimes I get really confused when I talk about other ministers like this, you know, but this is my experience. So what was I telling you? What was I telling you this time? Oh, yeah.


So I am standing there in the mi- -- front of the church, and he has got nothing for me, no healing, no prophecy, and I could tell he was really embarrassed. He was really agitated. He was walking around. I feel people's feelings. Lots of times, I know their -- what they are thinking. Sometimes I actually hear their thoughts. That man wanted me to sit down. He just wanted me to sit down so bad, and at that point, I knew I was not moving, that I was waiting for the Lord to release me. I did not know what I was going to do, but I knew that I was under the anointing, so I would not sit down. So he just climbed up in the pulpit. He figured if he started preaching, then surely I would sit down.




But when he stood up in the pulpit, all of a sudden the anointing came on me, and I started prophesying to him, and it was really, really strong, and it was a conditional prophecy. "If you will give up that which you love more than me, I will do this, and I will do this, and I will do this with your ministry." And when I sat down, he announced to the congregation, I guess --


04/06/15 Transcribed by VerbalFusion


04/10/15 1st Edit CAS/BP


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Pastor Vitale's Bio

Sheila R. Vitale is the founding teacher and pastor of Living Epistles Ministries and Christ-Centered Kabbalah. In that capacity, she expounds upon the Torah (Scripture) and teaches Scripture through a unique Judeo-Christian lens.

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