Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 2:24 AM
Sandra mentioned to me that you talked with Rich on the phone. You asked about hell and what it means. The main problem is that the denominational church is very dogmatic which basically means very arrogant, prideful, controlling, and domineering in their beliefs. I'm finding as I hear what these denominational churches are doing in how they respond to us is exactly how I used to operate in the denominational church. Its how the church does it. They are full of fear and pride and that energy is generated in a Jezebel spirit that tries to control the moving of Christ in a believer. They simply, and what I mean by "they" is that the majority of the elders in the denominational church cannot sit down with anyone outside of their denomination and have a rational, intelligent conversation. You found this with Rich. You asked him a simple question about clouds and he exploded on you. He is assuming an elder position towards you in his mind and yet all we see is the emotions of his carnal mind which is fuelled by Satan blurting out things with no wisdom whatsoever. A man who has any substance of the mind of Christ formed in him would speak forth in wisdom and it would be of the sound mind.
Depending on how mature the mind of Christ is in someone it would depend on how they would respond. Now if a question was asked me pertaining to clouds I would first look at the reference in scripture pertaining to that question.
So first off, the denominational church believes Jesus will appear in the clouds. What scripture do they take this from? There are a few noticeable scriptures to this question. Let's look at one of them.
Mk 13:26 KJV
V.26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
First of all when looking at this verse you would have to be in prayer and waiting for the Lord Jesus to move upon you. So it might go like this, I would look at the interlinear scripture keeping in mind that the New Testament was first written in Aramaic, then translated by Catholic monks to Latin, then translated by Catholic monks to Greek, then translated to English except for the book of Luke. So there are a lot of hands on touching with the New Testament to keep in mind. So I will have to make sure to also look at the word "clouds" in the Old Testament and look in the Hebrew. Hebrew is directly translated into English with no other languages in between, yet we must still keep in mind that in our English versions that there are still many words added and taken from the Bible, that are not in the original language.
So let's look at this scripture in the book of Mark in the interlinear scripture.
One interlinear book says this.
AND THEY-SHALL-BE-VEIWING THE SON OF-THE human COMING IN CLOUDS WITH ABILITY much AND esteem/glory.
Another version says this
And the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds.
The Lord Jesus might lead me to look at Strong’s Concordance concerning the word “clouds”. We must remember God is wisdom. He is very thorough. So most likely He will have you look up other words in this verse and could lead you to other scriptures pertaining to this verse.
Always keep in mind that the Word is Spirit and those that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. So I can't translate this passage by natural means because the carnal mind perverts spiritual truth that comes from Jesus Christ.
So I now look up the word “clouds” in the Strong’s Concordance in regards to Mark 13:26.
First definition 3507 means
2. Used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness.
Also there is a root word to “cloud” 3509
1. a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng
2. used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapour obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapour with some form or shape
3. a cloud in the sky
Lets take a look at the Strong’s 3507 second definition (Used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness).
Ex 13:21 KJV
V.21 and the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.
I then would go through the same steps to determine what the Lord Jesus Christ is trying to tell me in this.
Let's look at the Hebrew definition of the word "cloud" 6051
1. cloud, cloudy, cloud mass
a. cloud-mass (of theophanic cloud)
I also notice that there is a root word to “cloud” which is 6049.
Hmm, I wonder what that means and also what does "theophanic" mean. I will have to get my dictionary.
6049 in the exhaustive concordance says this.
to cover; to cloud over; to act covertly, practice magic: bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observe times, soothsayer, sorcerer.
Wow, the root word of cloud has quite a few different meanings here. In this situation you would have to take the correct meaning in the fullness of the passage.
Also what does "theophanic" mean? It comes from the root word "theophany". Theophany from the Holman Bible dictionary can have five definitions to it. Now this is in relation to cloud.
1. in human form.
2. In a vision
3. Angel of the Lord
4. Not in a human form, came as a burning bush.
5. As the name of the Lord God's sacred name represented His presence.
In all of these definitions it seems that we’re dealing with a supernatural cloud. The only place I see that it could mean a cloud in the sky is the third definition of the root word “3509”. And yet I have to ask after all the other definitions if the word “sky” means a literal sky or a spiritual sky? My opinion after looking at all the definitions, is that it seems to indicate that we are dealing with a supernatural cloud. This is interesting because we can’t forget that God is a Spirit.
Jn 6:63 KJV
V.63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
You might want to read this whole passage starting with v.22 through the rest of the passage of John chapter 6. It shows how the Jews continued to translate what Jesus was saying in the natural instead of the Spirit. The same problem exists today as we are experiencing.To do an even deeper study on this passage, Pastor Vitale did a message on John 6. It is message 126 - John 6 Exhortation.
The Lord just reminded me of another scripture verse referring to the book of Mark; it's a passage that the church uses to justify Jesus coming in the clouds.
2 Thess 1:6-10 KJV
V.6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
V.7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
V.8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
V.9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
V.10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Look at verse 7. It seems that this passage refers to Mk 13:26. Well what does "revealed" mean? The number in Strong's concordance for this word is 601.
laying bear, making naked
a disclosure of truth, instruction
concerning things before unknown
used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
Doesn't this sound exactly like what the Doctrine of Christ does? It reveals the carnal minds nakedness. It exposes our sin nature, by disclosing the Truth to us through the instruction of the Lord Jesus Christ. Ouch! That doesn't feel good. Now it's beginning to sound like the Lord Jesus is appearing in the saints, and this is how it's happening. In us. Not in some cloud in the sky. Church wake up!!!
Verse 10 seems to draw further evidence that He will be appearing in His holy ones.
Verse 10; let’s see what the interlinear says.
Whenever He may be coming to be glorified in the holy ones of Him and to be marveled in all the ones believing (was believed the testimony of us on you) in the day that
These are strong verses here that cannot be ignored. (Whenever He may be coming to be glorified in the holy ones and marveled in all those ones believing.)
After viewing some of the definitions we have looked up, is it possible that the holy ones are the clouds that is spoken about in Mark 13:26. And after reading this now I ask the question, who are the holy ones/saints compared to the believing ones. It seems most likely in the denominations eyes that it's referring to the ones who have died that are the holy ones and the believing ones are those who are still on earth. But if that's the case then what happens to their rapture theory? And after looking at this verse it says (coming to be glorified in the holy ones). This doesn't seem to suggest that the holy ones were already glorified. So does that mean that when you physically die you’re not glorified right away? So many questions aren’t there. As I mentioned above, their pride won't allow them to ever get the chance to ask questions like this. Because the reality to them is "we will get the answers when we physically die". They take pride in physical death, when the Bible clearly states that the reason there is death is because the carnal mind is still the ruling one within them, not the mind of Christ. My heart breaks for them.
May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal His truth to all of us and may we humble ourselves enough so, to hear from Him.
It seems the Lord had me address the cloud issue. I was prepared to respond to the Heaven and Hell issue, but the Lord saw other wise. Here is a site you can look at concerning that question. It's a very brief answer but there are some passages that will help you: Heaven And Hell.
That's the problem with those looking at Pastor Vitale's website. They look at a couple of question and answer sites, type in a word search and read a couple of paragraphs, and think they have the Doctrine of Christ figured out. Such pride. If they would only ask themselves how Pastor Vitale came to the conclusions of what she taught by first starting at the beginning, they would then find out that she spent years in her inner closet learning Hebrew and Greek, and her messages go word for word in the verses she studied on particular doctrine. Everything she has studied can be backed up by the interlinear scripture as well as the Hebrew and Greek. I spend anywhere from 10 to 40 hours a week testing her work by the Spirit of Christ and I haven't seen anything yet that is outside the spiritual Word which is God's living Word, Jesus Christ.
They need to humble themselves and ask a simple question. "God is there any truth in this, and if so humble me and reveal it to me, whether it takes one week or twenty years, I only want the truth Lord Jesus." It's amazing to see all the false accusations I'm hearing about. Whether it's from child abuse to witchcraft control. The fear that operates in them and pride keeping them down to just come and ask us questions. They go around seeking and devouring based on gossip and backbiting. They truly are the modern day Pharisees.
Mark 14:56 KJV
V.56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
Jer 5:2 KJV
V.2 And though they say, The Lord liveth; surely they swear falsely.
Jer 6:13 KJV
V.13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
Matt 5:10-12 KJV
V.10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for their's is the kingdom of heaven.
V.11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
V.12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
LK 3:14 KJV
V.14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, do violence to no man, neither accuse falsely; and be content with your wages.
1 Pet 3:16, 17 KJV
V.16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
V.17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
I hope this has helped Brett in how to go at it with asking Jesus Christ questions, and not being like the Catholic spirit that doesn't test a spirit in a godly way, just believing what is being said because all the denominational churches believe it. This is exactly what the Catholic Church has done, and the Evangelical Church does the same and is too blind to recognize it. This is truly the Jezebel spirit at work.
Blessings in Christ