138 - 1 Part
OLD VS. NEW ORDER DELIVERANCE

The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.

 

COMMENT: The young man who was teaching that night was saying something about, he was talking about why some Christians go through trials and tribulations. That God is making us and molding us into His perfection. He is breaking us, and one of the reasons why we could be going through much suffering is because there is sin in our hears and in our lives. I think I remember you saying something similar to that. Could you try to explain what he was trying to say? Was there any truth to that?

PASTOR VITALE: The truth of our condition is that we are all sinners, and that we deserve everything that comes our way, because if we were righteous no affliction would have authority over us at all. The only difference in somebody that has a relationship with Jesus, and somebody that does not, is that the one that has no relationship with Jesus, the destruction, the trials or the troubles that are coming against them, has the authority to destroy them.

The person that has a relationship with Christ, in that relationship with Christ it is like someone is throwing a hard ball at you, He reaches up, He does not stop the ball from being thrown at you, but He reaches up and grabs it and He uses it for your good. He uses it to mold you into His image. The whole creation has been found guilty, and this is something that is not too popular in the church today. There are a lot of preachers that do not want to use the word "sin" anymore. The fact is that the whole creation has been proven guilty. What is the proof that we are guilty? The proof is that we are all dying except for Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

He died, but His Father raised Him from the dead. What did He die to? On the cross, it was His fallen adamic soul that He inherited from His mother, Mary, that died. He had purified that soul, He made it sinless, but even though He made it sinless, it was still capable of death, because it was still a part of the creation.

Even though we are all repented up, we are all...no matter how repented up we are, our state of being is sin. I am glad for this question, I believe it came up a little earlier, not in the exact words. I think it did come up earlier, we must understand that every human being alive has sin. If we were in a condition where we had no more sin, we would be perfect. Even though we repented, it does not mean we do not have the sin anymore. To say that somebody is suffering from a disease because they have sin, everybody has sin. Does everybody know what I am talking about?

Everybody has sin. You can get deliverance from demons. I want to remind you that demons are the offspring of the carnal mind. You can cast the demons out of you, but you cannot cast the carnal mind out of you. Your carnal mind is sin. If you have a demon of bitterness or unforgiveness, you cast it out, but it is still possible for you to have a disease that is known as the result of bitterness. Why? Because bitterness resides in your carnal mind. This is the big misunderstanding in the church today. Deliverance comes in at least two stages. I am going to just deal with two stages now.

Le t me go over this for you again. Our state of being is death. Because we are in a condition of death, we sin. Death is the carnal mind, her activity is sin. Her activity is sin. If we did not have one demon, if it were possible, I doubt it is possible, to cast out every demon a person has, we would still be sinners. Why? Because that which is causing us to exist in this realm of appearance is the carnal mind, which is death.

Demons are the offspring of the carnal mind. To say to someone that you have a disease because you have bitterness, well you have to seek God. Maybe the person has unrepented sin. There is a difference in sin that has been repented of and unrepented sin. Maybe the person has a demon of bitterness, it has to be cast out, but if you check all this out and this person is repentant, if demons have been cast out and they still have the diseases, you have to start asking yourself some other questions. It is just not as simple as it has been taught to us.

The human condition is very complicated. There are many variables that produce one human being and make that human being who they are. The same variables manifesting in another persons life would not produce the same exact personalty characteristics as in the other person. Why? Because you are not starting with the same thing. Anybody not know what I am talking about?

This is very complicated, the human mind is very complicated. Unfortunately, Christians have been known and are known throughout the world for over simplifying things. Things are not simple. God did not form an android out of the earth, and breathe into his nose and people that look like us appeared. He did not do it in six natural days, it is just not that simple. It is not a fairy tale. Human beings are very complicated.

I hope I made that clear. We have all been proven to be sinners. All, except Jesus Christ of Nazareth, that has ever walked on this earth has been a natural man. If you are a natural man, you are a sinner. We are not talking about what you do with your hands. If it is possible or not, I am not sure if it is possible, let us make a story. It is called a hypothesis. Let us say it is possible that there was a human being alive that never did anything wrong with his mouth or with his hands. He never said anything wrong, never did anything wrong, never hurt anybody. He would still be a sinner. Why? Because the spiritual authority that is causing him to exist in this world is sin.

His very state of being is sin. I used to hear, "Well, we will cast out all the demons and we will be righteous." No, you will not be righteous. You cast out all the demons, you will be dead if you can do it, but you cannot do it. If you could cast out your carnal mind you would die. What would be keeping you alive? We are lacking, the human race is lacking, we are negative. Something is missing from us. The Scripture says that what is missing from us is our righteousness. He is the positive charge, we are the negative charge,

Our righteousness is missing from us, the Scripture also says that He is our life. Our Life is missing from us, all we have is death. Death and sin, that is what we are. We could walk around with a Bible, we could walk around with a dove pin, most of us here or listening to the tapes know all about the dove pins already. We could walk around casting out demons, doing all kinds of good works for the Lord, but I am telling you, you are still a sinner. If you cast everything ungodly out of you, you would die, because you are lacking something. You are missing your Life.

I challenge you to show me a Scripture that says there is Life in the Holy Spirit. Life is in the Son. Christ must be formed in you, He must mature to a degree where when He kills your carnal mind, He can sustain the Life of your flesh. He is not about to kill your carnal mind, before He can sustain the life of your flesh. Why? Because He wants your flesh. If you die He has to start over again with somebody else.

He has invested a lot in you, you are much more important than many sparrows. Much has been invested in you, He does not want you to die. That is why you cast out demons, and you cast out demons, and you are not perfect. Sometimes you are not well, sometimes you do things that are wrong, because it is impossible to cast all sin out of you. Your cure is through union with Christ. Your Life, your total deliverance, your perfection is in union with Christ.

The Spirit of Christ is the Father, and He must join with your spirit. Christ must join with your fallen adamic flesh, and when Christ joins with wickedness, the wickedness is swallowed up. You will be righteous, and you will be alive. There is an idiolatry for deliverance. I am not against deliverance, I just had it tonight. The truth is that there is idiolatry for deliverance in the church. It is not the answer to everything. It is not the be-all, end-all. It is the power of God to the natural man to cleanse him to the point where his soul and his mind can receive the seed of God, so that seed can start to grow.

Our true deliverance, our total deliverance, our perfection is in union with the Christ that has to grow in us before we can join with Him. This is why many deliverance ministries, God raises them up, they last about five years, and they go into Sonship. A lot of people feel that Sonship is a wicked doctrine, all of these deliverance ministries are falling away. They go in deliverance for five years, they go on to Sonship, and they do not want to do deliverance anymore.

After five years in deliverance, God delivers your mind to the point where you start receiving deeper doctrine. I know some deliverance ministries lock out deliverance. It is just unfortunate on their part. They have matured to the point where they start saying, "It is no good for anybody." That is unfortunate, and it is not true. What is also true is that when God delivers your mind to the point where you start receiving deeper doctrine, when God delivers your mind to the point that the seed engrafts in you, we are talking about this earlier, the ground rules change.

The new covenant is in Christ. When the seed of Christ engrafts to your heart, the ground rules change. Deliverance is the power of God to the unregenerate man. As Christ increases in you, you become more Christ and less fallen adamic. More into the New covenant and less into the old covenant, the ground rules change.

One of the things that seems to happen, if you have eyes to see, it is not my doing. One of the things that seems to happen is that there is less and less of what I call "old order deliverance." It does not stop completely, but the emphases comes off of it. You go into a deliverance church and the emphases is on the deliverance, and sometimes it becomes an idiolatry, that the answer to all your problems is deliverance. This is not true. The answer to all your problems is the Lord Jesus Christ. The answer to every problem you have is Christ. It is not deliverance. It is Christ.

When God brings you out of that old order deliverance ministry, you will find that the ministries that are laboring in doctrine, that there is less deliverance where you put someone in a chair, or you stand around them and you pray. Lord willing, it still occurs, but you will find that it is not longer the major thrust of the ministry. Why? Because the doctrine has become the major thrust of the ministry. Because when you were in an old order deliverance church, your purpose in life was to clean up your soul so that it could receive the seed. The seed can be flowing over you for years and not engraft. Some women engage in sexual activity for years, and they never conceive.

The major purpose of old order deliverance is to clean you up, plow your earth to the point that the seed can engraft. In the midst of that, God will have mercy on you. You could get delivered from many irritating things, but the primary purpose.... look brethren, sex is nice, but if God wants to get you pregnant, you want to get pregnant, your husband wants to get you pregnant, you can enjoy the act, but there is only one way you can get pregnant. Does anyone not know what I am talking about?

Old order deliverance has good beneficial effects, but the primary purpose of it is to get you pregnant. Once you get pregnant, the ground rules change. You do not have to do that anymore, you are already pregnant. The thrust is on the doctrine. Why? Because the doctrine is the food that is going to cause the increase in you. Now if you are having a problem with your fallen adamic soul that is hindering you, well you still might need deliverance. If you need it, you should get it, but the ground rules change. Now Christ is growing inside of you.

At least part of that deliverance is coming from within. If it is coming from within, that is great. If it is not coming from within, the Christ in you is not mature enough, and you need someone to lay hands on you, or a group to lay hands on you. Well praise God for it, you should get it, that is the children's bread. You should get it, and you should have it, but you are supposed to be in transition, and you are supposed to be headed for a place where you are growing up, starting to deal with your own problems.

If your problem is too big for you, you get your brothers and your sisters and get your deliverance. We are supposed to be in an increasing, intense relationship with the Lord, where we go to Him for our every need. Now when we are immature, the power of God is outside of us, in other believers. As He increases in you, His power and authority is supposed to be increasing in us. Not only to minister to others but to minister to our self.

He wants an increasingly intense relationship with us, He wants us to turn to Him. When we wake up and we find that we have a problem, the first thing He wants us to do is go before the Throne of Grace, and say, "Lord what do you want me to do? Will you heal me directly? Can I pray for myself? What do you want me to do?"

After you seek God, if you feel led to seek deliverance prayer, you do it. If you do not do this, if you do not develop this, if every morning you wake up with a problem and your thought is, "I have to get to church and have my brothers and sisters pray deliverance for me," can anyone not see that this is idiolatry? The Lord is within you, your king is within you. He wants you to turn inward to Him.

Eventually, we will not need others praying for us. If we still need it along the way, we should get it. I know that there are some ministers that will not allow it. They do not know if the people have an engrafted seed or not. They will tell them, "In this ministry, we do not do that." Well, I am against that. I believe that everybody is an individual, if you need it, it is yours. You should know where you are headed.

When little children grow up, they have an idea where they are headed because they see their mother if they are a girl, and they see their father if they are a boy. The church is growing up, and all we have is Jesus which is no small thing. We see Jesus all grown up and glorified, we do not see Him one or two years ahead of where we are. We are groping and it is difficult.

I disagree with both categories of preachers. You do not forbid deliverance or healing in the church. The person needs it, you give it to them. Make sure that they have the engrafted word. Educate them. I hope I am educating you tonight. You educate them that what you are headed for is a condition of spiritual maturity whereby you, in union with Christ, are totally without need for anything or anyone in this world. That is what you are headed for.

Now, you may have many stages in between. He wants you to turn to Him with everything. When that ship was getting ready to sink, Paul did not run out and ask for people to lay hands on him. He sought God, and an angel appeared to him. I declare to you that, that angel was the Christ within him. I do not know how to make it any clearer, I hope no one is misunderstanding me. Deliverance ministry is good, but it is to the unregenerate man. As Christ appears in you and is formed in you, you are becoming a spiritual man. The more spiritual in Christ that you are, the less unregenerate you are.

When you become a new creature, there are different rules, there are different miniseries, and there are different ways of dealing with your problems. Jesus wants you to Himself. He wants you to be so close with Him that He can send you out to minister to others that are not where you are with a full knowledge of their problem. That is different. I do not know whether you can hear it or not, that is different than having someone come and say, "Will you pray for me? I have a problem."

It is different, it is one situation when the person comes to you and says, "I am sick, will you pray for me?" It is different when the Father says to you, "Do you see that person over there? This is what their problem is. I want you to go to them, they do not know what their problem is. I am sending you to them, I want you to relate to them, and wait on me by my spirit to bring forth my miracle that I am going to give them." Can anybody not see the difference here. It is a big difference. One is the imputed anointing the other is the imparted anointing.

One is just the mercy of God to carnal Christians. Help! Help! Help! "I have an anointing, I know God, let me pray for you." It is the mercy of God. Sometimes you succeed, sometimes you do not. Let me tell you when the Father sends you, when the Father raises you up and says, "This is what their problem is." Go! It is 100% victory. There is nothing wrong with laying hands on people, but if the Lord wants to do it another way, you must be open to do it another way.

You do not always lay your hands on people. I want to tell you something. As you mature in Christ, the Christ in you vibrates forth and touches the person without your hands. I want to tell you that when Jesus preached to 5000, everyone of them was healed. I heard a man stand up in a pulpit, he said it was a mass deliverance, that Jesus had to stand there and call out all the names of the demons. No, He did not.

If that is what God has given you in your deliverance church, for as long as the Lord is honoring what you are doing by pouring out His spirit and delivering people, you do it. When you are in a church and that anointing starts to lift off, you have to ask yourself why? Does the Lord want us to do it another way? I want to tell you, when Jesus Christ of Nazareth stood up and prayed for 5000 people, His spirit reached out and touched everyone that was there. There is no way a human man could have prayed for and delivered 5000 people. Not only that, it was a miracle that they heard His voice without a microphone. It was supernatural.

A supernatural ministry can only be resident in a supernatural man. For Christians that are carnal, the Lord is doing it another way, but there has to be a time where you stop being carnal. There has to be a time where His Life start appearing in you. Do you not want to do it the way Jesus did it? You have to give up the first to enter into the second. It is a biblical principle. We had this on a recent tape, those people that will not let go of one thing, trusting God to bring them into a better way.

Is that not what Paul said in the book of Hebrews? "There is a better way." It is likened to an adulterous wife who is not happy with her husband. She will not let go of him until she has another man. That is outright adultery. It is called faith. We are supposed to be trusting Him.

Let go, let go. Let Him move. He wants to do supernatural miracles, supernatural signs and wonders through each of us, but we must let go of the imaginations of our mind. Why? Because we block Him out when we are so sure that this is the only way He would want us to do it. Glory to God.

He wants to bring us to the place where His spirit will arise in us and vibrate out of us to do whatever He wants to do. Sometimes we will be partakers of it, sometimes we will not. When we are running our own show, it hinders Him from manifesting freely. We must let go so that He can show us a new and better way, a much more exciting way. Trust Him that He is going to get us through the wilderness experience and bring us into what He has for us.

I know a lot of the things the Lord does through me I am aware of, but I am not aware of everything. I know He sent me to a church once. He sent me with a word for the minister. At the time I had no ministry, and at the time the man did not take me very seriously. He was nice to me, but did not take me seriously. He had been in deliverance, he was now out of deliverance in a very ungodly way. I was in his service sitting in the front row, and his mind was penetrated to the point that he was talking about demons.

I cannot remember the details, but he said something and he looked up. He knew it was not him, and he looked right at me. I was the only one in his whole congregation that still believed in deliverance.

He looked right at me, he knew that it came from my mind, but it was not me, but I agree with him it did come from me. It was Christ in my mind that vibrated out from me and spoke to this man while he was preaching to a congregation. This is the difference between the imputed and imparted anointing. The imputed anointing is of the natural man. If we will let go of our own works, He will live through us with such exciting experiences that being His servant, following His lead will be thousand of times greater than the greatest high we could experience doing our own works.

You have to sit still, you have to sit still sometimes. Let Him move. We have got to learn how to wait on Him, do not jump in there right away. Ask Him questions, He wants you to ask Him questions. Get into the habit of asking Him questions, "Lord do you want me to minister to this person? Who, what, when, and where?" He wants that intimacy with you, and He will bring you to some very exciting experiences in Christ.

The reality is, to get back to our original point, is that we are all sinners. Our state of being is sin until such time as Christ is formed in us to such a point that the Scripture says He is fully born in us. When He is fully born in us, He will bruise Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, under His feet. The Scripture says "your," under "your" feet, Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind. It will be under your feet because you will be Christ, when Christ is fully born in you. You are Christ now. When He is fully born in you, you will surely be Christ. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, will be bruised under His feet, and you will no longer be a sinner.

Why? Because your sin nature, Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, will be totally suppressed, held down, and covered over by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. By Jesus Christ's faithfulness to His Father that He will not permit Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, to cause you to sin. We all have sin. We have to look at the whole circumstance when we are ministering to somebody. We have to look at as many of the variables as the Lord will let you see, because some of us put condemnation on people without realizing it. That never glorifies God.

We have to have ourselves before the Lord continuously saying, "Lord is my ministry okay? Check me out." If you go into a big business, they check each other out all the time. Put yourself before the Lord, say, "Lord am I ever without compassion? Am I ever without mercy?" I have experience, I go before the Lord and I say "Father how did I do, what would you teach me. I could not possibly have been perfect because I am not perfect, what would you teach me?" He wants you to ask Him. The more you ask Him, the more He is going to talk to you, the faster you are going to learn and the faster you are going to move into spiritual ministry.

Be careful not to make deliverance idiolatry, be careful. He will give you works, if you have a heart for the people and you want to do, He will certainly give it to you. There is so much work to do. I am telling you the truth, there is a transition period where if you used to be in a deliverance church, praying for people a couple of hours several nights a week, there is a transition period where there is not a lot of activity.

If you are feeling a severe distress because of it, you have to ask the Lord if you have an ungodly soul tie with that kind of ministry. What I am suggesting is that ministering in old order deliverance could be so satisfying to your soul, that there could be something ungodly operating in your soul that you need to be released from. There is a transition period, but when He moves you into spiritual ministry it is glorious, so just give Him a chance. Anybody else have a question?

COMMENT: I was reading in your paper that Jesus had the soul of fallen Adam, and the soul of Christ. Can you clarify that a little better? Does that mean Jesus sinned when He had the fallen adamic soul, or there was no sin in Jesus?

PASTOR VITALE: Jesus had a sin nature. I know there are a lot of ministers that would disagree with me, but I am sorry, I am going to preach it as God showed it to me. This is how He identified with us. Everyone will tell you He was a man. Well, if He was a man, they said that He was capable of sin, but without sin at every point. I am maintaining that those Scriptures, that particular Scripture and similar Scripture are talking about Him after His baptism.

He was born with an fallen adamic soul which He got from His mother, Mary. If He never yielded to it, if He never thought a sinful thought, if He never did a sinful deed, He still had a sin nature. I am of the opinion, I believe God has told me that up until the time of His baptism, He was a man in a very similar condition that we are in now.

He had a fallen adamic soul in a fallen adamic body which He inherited from His mother, Mary. He also had the soul of Christ which was begotten in Him by His Father, God. The soul of Christ was perfect, the very Logos of God, without sin, incapable of sin, and glorious. It was in His spiritual being. When we looked at Him, we saw a man, a human man, and inside of Him at the center was the life, the Logos of God, that was begotten of the Father. Inside this man, inside this human being, He had Christ, the Logos of God, perfect, incorruptible, incapable of sin. He also had a fallen adamic soul that He inherited from His mother, the very nature of which is sin. He had both.

What happened was, by the authority of Christ in Him, He started to rule this sin nature. He brought it to a place where it would not sin. I believe that for the early years of His life there had to be some sin present, that when He was an infant, a six month old infant, some rebellion manifesting, some rage that He did not get what He wanted at the moment.

The first reaction of the believer when they hear what I am saying is they start screaming, "blasphemy." I want to tell you that if you are still listening to this tape, I want to ask you not to shut the tape off. I want to tell you that this is a fantastic message. It is not blasphemy. I am not denying that Jesus was God. What I am saying is that the God that was in Him was born wrapped in sinful flesh. Is that not what the Scripture says? He was wrapped in sinful flesh. The sin nature was wrapped around Him.

By the time He came to the baptism, He had taken total authority over His sin nature. That means if He can do, you can do it to. It is the most glorious, most exciting message, if you can get away from your carnal mind. This is not blasphemy. As of the time of the baptism, by John in the river Jordan, He had totally taken authority over His sin nature. It says after the baptism, the spirit took Him up and He was tempted of Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind.

I want to suggest to you that is what that Scripture is talking about. At that point in His life, when He was 30 years old, He was tested to prove whether or not He had taken authority over His sin nature. Now who is the God of fallen Adam? The God of fallen Adam is Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind. That whole mystical group of Scriptures that we call the temptation, we have to get out of the mysticism and start seeing these Scriptures realistically. How they relate to us, what they mean to us, what did that mystical account mean?

This man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, was a human being. What do those Scriptures mean? What happened to Him? What happened to Him is what is happening to many of us now. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, in His own mind, came to Him and tried to take this dominion back. Because if He would have yielded to one of the unconscious part of the carnal mind's thoughts, He would have lost all authority He had over His fallen adamic soul, and He would have not ascended to full stature.

Every thought Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, put thoughts into His mind, He resisted. It says Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, departed from Him for a season. Now He did not kill Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, at that point. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, was very much alive, but Christ has authority over him. Now that He is a glorified spirit and He is living in you, He is doing the same thing in you as He did in the man, Jesus of Nazareth. This is wonderful! It is not blasphemy, give up your Santa Clauses. I rebuke the spirit of sleep, wake up. Do not be embarrassed. Fallen Adam is just trying to shut you down, do not let me embarrass you.

This is the best news I ever heard. He was a man just like me. When these wicked thoughts come into my mind, I cry out to God to help me not to yield to them. I know that I see Jesus, that He did, and that I can do it too. In due season, if I can keep resisting these thoughts, I am going to take such a degree of dominion over him, I will be known as "in full stature." It keeps me going, it gives me strength to overcome his thoughts in my mind. To know that it is a process, that I know what I am fighting for, if I keep doing it, that day has to come that I take dominion over him. I cannot wait.

The Scripture says that Jesus would not do anything Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, suggested to Him, so Satan departed from Him and was killed when Jesus was crucified. Jesus' soul life, the Logos of Christ, was joined to the fallen adamic soul that Jesus inherited from His mother when Jesus' body was crucified, which union killed Jesus' fallen adamic soul. Of the two souls, making one new man, the creation of God. It is fantastic if you can get past your Pharisee spirit. It is the best thing I have ever heard.

The whole point of the temptation is to show that there really was a possibility that Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, could have overtaken Him. It was a struggle for Him.

COMMENT: He would not have been tempted.

PASTOR VITALE: He would have not been tempted.

COMMENT: If there was no sin, He would have not had to worry.

PASTOR VITALE: See, the point is that once He took dominion over Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, Satan could have never gotten Him.... now let me put it this way. As you read the Scriptures describing the temptation, I think it is very clear, I do not think any honest person can deny, Jesus was the one who was....what is the word I want to use? Defending Himself. When two people have a conflict, one person is dominant, and one person is passive. One person is attacking, and one person is defensive. Can anybody not say amen to that?

One person usually is attacking, and the other person is defending. One is more powerful and the other less powerful. It is never an equal fight. One person has always got a hair more up than the other one. Can anyone not say amen to that? The relationship between Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, and Jesus was that Jesus was defending Himself against Satan, the predominant character, the one that was attacking. Jesus was holding him off. Can anyone not agree with this?

In this encounter, Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, was the predominant character. Jesus was defending Himself against Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind. If He had total dominion over Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, it could have never been written like that. I am telling you the truth, He was a man just like we are. The only difference is that He was born with Christ in His human spirit. We got it later on. We got the engrafted word later on. That is the only difference between Him and us. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, was attacking, Jesus was defending.

If I am not mistaken, the Scripture says when Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, departed from Him, I know it says He was hungered. Did it not also say He was tired, He wanted to rest? If you just open your mind, Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, withdrew with no scars at all. He was attacking, attacking, attacking, then he went away.

Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, was not hurt at all. Jesus was tired, Jesus was worn down, Jesus was hungry, Jesus needed ministry. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, went away, he was not touched at all. Yet three and a half years later, Jesus killed him, slew Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, on the cross. In three years, He went from defending Himself, to killing Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind . Now those three years were three years of dominion. When you are under somebody, when you are a wrestler, and someone has your shoulders pinned down on the mat, it takes much more strength to overcome that person, than when you are equal or on top of him.

Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, is lying on top of the Christ in you. It is requiring much more strength for us now to overcome Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, than it is going to require once we overcome him. The account of the temptation is showing Jesus Christ of Nazareth, by the Christ in Him, rising up against Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, from a position underneath him. From the time that He rose up and took the dominion over him, He was in a much stronger position.

If you are the wrestler, and you are on that mat, shoulders are pinned down, you throw the guy off, you stand up and stand face-to-face. You do not need as much strength as you did when you were lying on the mat. Once we get on top of him, it is going to be easier to deal with him than it is from down here. When we did those Scriptures on Jesus in the Garden, we looked up every word in the Greek. We found out that when it said Jesus was in agony, and the whole church world, God forgive them, thinks He was in agony because He was afraid to go to the cross, we looked up all those words, and we found out that is not why He was in agony.

He was in an agony of spiritual warfare. He was praying to the Father for permission to penetrate His fallen adamic soul, circumcise His fallen adamic soul, whatever word you want to use, He was in agony of the mind. If you look that word up in the Greek, "in agony of the mind," He was saying to the Father, "Let me pierce through my fallen adamic soul, putting fallen Adam ruled by Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, under my feet, putting me on top of him.

That Scripture that says, "And big drops of blood dripped down," when I looked up every one of those words, it was saying that Christ pierced through fallen Adam, and He laid over fallen Adam like big droplets of clotted blood. It means clotted blood falling on the ground of His fallen adamic soul. He covered him over completely. He could not do it without permission from the Father. He was praying, "Father if it is possible, Christ in me is strong enough, if it is possible let me pierce through."

After He prayed, great drops of blood fell down on the ground of His fallen adamic soul. He covered over him completely. The next stage of dominion over the fallen adamic soul which is ruled by Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, the last stage, He killed him. Of the twain, He made one new man, the creation of God, the glorified creation of God. If you just open your heart, it is really obvious. It is just that everyone has all these false ideas in their head and their children's fables. They are Santa Claus. He was a man just like we are.

We know by His 12th or 13th birthday, where His parents were looking for Him, He must have known who He was at that point. He was already showing great signs of spiritual maturity, He was talking to the rabbi's. I believe He knew who He was. He got His education in the Scriptures, He was taught of God. I do not know at what age it started, but for many years, He know who He was.

He was baptized at 30 years of age. I would say that it was probably at least 20 years, He was in preparation. We are not that far behind Him. At least 20 years, maybe longer, studying the Scriptures, seeking the Father, and He had this whole message in His heart. He knew what it was all about. It is going to be happening to another group of people very soon. We are in the running. I cannot promise you anything, but if you are hearing the message, you are in the running. If you want it, pray for it. It is very exciting. It was harder for Him than it is for us. At least we have each other, He was all alone. It was just Him and the Lord. Somehow the Lord witnessed it to Him, He believed it, He went for it, and He did it.

He was surrounded by non-believers with doubt and unbelief. He did it. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, used the Scripture to tempt Him, so He could not have any perverse concept of the Scripture. We have to know the truth, we have to have the true doctrine. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, twisted the Scripture to get Him to do this, to cause Him to lose...let me rephrase that. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, used the Scripture to try to cause Christ to do things that would cause Christ to lose His dominion over Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind.

Misuse of the Scripture will cause you to lose whatever dominion you have over Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind. In any particular area, at any given time, a misunderstanding, a misuse or abuse of the Scripture will give Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, dominion over you.

COMMENT: Before Christ came into the flesh, before He was a man, before He was born, He was with the Father is that correct?

PASTOR VITALE: He was in the bosom of the Father, we are told.

COMMENT: What was it like, He was then lowered?

PASTOR VITALE: I do not think so. I know a lot of people teach that.

COMMENT: When Jesus Christ said to one of the Pharisees, I cannot remember the Scripture, the Pharisees before they said He was blasphemous because He said, "Before I was with the Lord, I and the Father are one, I was there when all these things happened to Abraham and Moses, I was with the Father when all this happened." The Pharisees attacked Him for saying that.

PASTOR VITALE: What He was saying by that was that He was God. That is what they attacked Him for. As far as His being with the Father, it is usually preached and I did preach it at one time, He was a full mature spirit or whatever, He left what He was and was made into a man. I do not believe in that anymore. I believe He, at the beginning of time, was the spiritual sperm of the Father. Likened to a sperm. We have a witness to that in the Scripture where we are told that Levi paid tithes while He was in Abrahams loins. God looks at a man, this is incredible, but He looked at the sperm inside of Abrahams loins and called him by name.

We have to start thinking with the mind of Christ, we have to get out of this carnality. I believe now that Christ was with the Father in the form of His spiritual sperm. He was projected into the earth and made into a man, because God is reproducing Himself. We have a lot of people in the Sonship camp, saying that we were with the Father, we were called before we were born, and we were with the Father before we were born. They tend to think that we were with the Father in mature form as we are now. That is not true.

We were with the Father, we were in His loins, we were seeds in the Father's loins from the beginning of time.

COMMENT: Before Christ became a man, He was with the Father but not the way we think.

PASTOR VITALE: Not the way we think. He was in the bosom of the Father, He was sperm in the Father's loins.

COMMENT: He was the first Son of God or something?

PASTOR VITALE: He was the only begotten Son of God.

COMMENT: He was the only begotten Son of God.

PASTOR VITALE: A lot of people preach that we were fully grown, spiritually mature beings in the realm of the spirit before we were incarnated. They use a Scripture in Job about the Sons of God singing at the beginning of time. I have even preached that myself. We did do that word-for-word, and we found out that it does not support that at all.

COMMENT: Inaudible.

PASTOR VITALE: Oh, the carnal mind XXXX. I have seen it in so many people. It has happened to me. God comes to me and gives me this intense revelation. When the anointing lifts off, you just forget about it, you lose all understanding.

COMMENT: It was continued confirmation in and out of the temple, the dreams that Joseph received.

PASTOR VITALE: That was when he was an infant. It has happened to me. Once the anointing lifts off, all you are left with is the word. It is very hard to talk in it.

COMMENT: You said that Michael, the archangel, when he was fighting over the body of Moses, you said that Michael the archangel, he was representing Christ. Who was Christ before the New Testament?

PASTOR VITALE: Well, there is a Scripture in the New Testament that says it was the Spirit of Christ upon Israel.

COMMENT: If Jesus did not become a Son of God until after He was resurrected, before He came to life, before He was born, in the Old Testament what place did Christ take.

PASTOR VITALE: Let me try and answer your question, if I did not answer your question please tell me. I think I know what you mean. Moses had an imputed anointing, he did not have an imparted anointing. Christ was present, not in the form of the Holy Spirit, but in the form of the Spirit of Christ, which means the Spirit of Christ is a much more powerful manifestation of the Father than the Holy Spirit.

We saw miracles in the wilderness that we do not see today in the church. Same spirit different administration. There was a powerful administration of the Spirit of the Father in Israel in that day. He was found in Moses' mind. It was an imputed Christ. The imputed Christ in Moses' mind was at war with Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, the God of his fallen adamic soul, fighting for the use of Moses' mind, body, and person.

COMMENT: It was the imputed Christ. It was not the Christ of the New Testament.

PASTOR VITALE: It was not the flesh of the Son. It was the Spirit of the Father. In the New Testament, we have the Spirit of Christ which is the Father and the very flesh of the Son which is Christ, which is soul.

COMMENT: Inaudible. So that full stature was not the one that was not Michael the archangel.

PASTOR VITALE: You are asking if Michael the archangel is the glorified Christ? There was no glorified Christ at that time.

COMMENT: I know that, I thought that because, well this is what I thought. Before Jesus Christ, before Jesus of Nazareth when He was with the Father, that He was already...

PASTOR VITALE: No.

COMMENT: That was the Christ. I was thinking of Michael, the archangel, but then you said before, you know you said earlier before.

PASTOR VITALE: It was a manifestation of the Spirit of Christ which was the Father, not the glorified Christ. Now let me remind you that the glorified Christ has swallowed up His fallen adamic soul. We know that was not true because Moses was fighting with his fallen adamic soul. He had not been joined to him. The glorified Christ is joined to the fallen adamic soul, so completely that they become another creature.

COMMENT: That is happening with us, but it did not happen to Moses?

PASTOR VITALE: No. Glory to God. I have one more.

COMMENT: I was just thinking when the Lord spoke to me that He wants to put his glory on me. Explain that.

PASTOR VITALE: God said He want to put His glory upon you because we are carnal, and because we are here in the soul realm. I have this on a lot of tapes. Frequently, we see things from the other side of the mirror, because the realm of the spirit is on one side of the mirror, and the soul is the other side of the mirror. The way we, that have read the Bible and studied, have understood one particular message of God, is that God is going to give us a new garment.

Our understanding of the Scripture, and it may even have been put that way, you have to go into the Greek. It is that we are going to put on a garment, we are getting a new garment. When He said to you that He was going to give you His glory, He said it that way because you would understand it. He is going to give you a new garment. That garment will be made of light. He is going to give you an new exterior. The reality is, it is His glory. He is covering us with His glory, He is going to be inside of us and outside of us. Spiritual life dwells within the human vessel and outside of the human vessel.

In other words, it totally baptizes the vessel. Whether it is a Godly spiritual life or ungodly spiritual life, it starts within. It forms the flesh body outside, and the spirit in the soul realm projects the personality. It is total immersion in a spiritual life form, the Scripture likens to a husband. Total immersion in Him, totally baptized in Him.

Right now, the whole human race is totally baptized in Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind. Those of us who are entering into the kingdom, what has happened to us is that a pool of baptismal water known as the Lord Jesus Christ has entered in, has penetrated Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind's fortresses, and is growing inside of us, fully intending to utterly swallow up the water of Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind's spirit, then take over the vessels of humanity.

We will be completely baptized to Christ. Does the Scripture not speak about the baptism into Christ? We must know what it means. It means everything. He will be everything. Glory to God.

09/30/03kml

11/17/03ab-FinalEdit


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